I think the sitcom will continue forever, lets see it's been on the air for at least a year now?

Anyhow, I don't care what a cartridge, ie brass case is called, nor do I care what type of rifle it is fitted to.

What has been proven over the 100 year life of the smokeless cartridge, and consistant use in the African game fields is that a bullet with a sd of .30" or more, a muzzle velocity of 2200-2400 fps, and well constructed solid and jacketed bullets are reliable killers on dangerous game. There is no magic involved, just lots of field use, and lots of successful results.

While many lesser rounds with heavy bullets are capable of taking out both shoulders, the real world doesn't always present those shots. The above criteria works when things go well, as well as when they don't go so well.

It all comes down to knowing the limitations of ones rifle, and shooting within them. The disagreements come from what limitations people wish to impose upon themselves, and assuming that others take the same stance. Then again there may be a few folks that think that less powerful weapons are fully equal to more powerful weapons, I simply don't buy that argument, but to each their own.

Paul,
I agree with you...I will add that in Africa 90 percent of the shots can be had almost picture perfect, with a little planning.

A 400 gr. bullet of 40 cal. at 2100 to 2400 is about ideal for all dangerous game. Any bullet of good sectional density weighing 275 grs. at 2100 to 2400 will do the job well enough....Sectional density, aka penitration is the catalist to shooting DG....IMO

Paul,

How dare you post such a reasonable and rational statement. Don't you know some of these guys would be crushed if they couldn't debate the width of a knat's ass?



I too think the sitcom will continue forever. Thanks for the brief relief.

Paul H,

I agree with regards the terminal balistics, but what about other factors?? Is a case which needs to be stoked up to the max to get the required performance suitable for DG from a reliability concern or are low to medium pressure rounds delivering the same performance a better choice?

Pete

Pete,

I believe in an overall conservative/sensible approach to the hunting of all game, but especially dangerous game. That entails getting within reasonable range, picking shots that allow some leeway in shot placement and waiting until one is presented with the angle to make that shot. The rifle needs to be reliable and accurate, and most importantly the shooter needs to be up to the task of shooting said rifle accurately in the field.

To your question, yes, a reasonable approach would dictate a factor of safety where the gun isn't run to the redline just to achieve borderline power levels. One does not tune a vehicle to peak levels of power when running the Paris Dakhar.

As someone has said before, shooting DG at 100 yards is not dangerous. It gets dangerous when things go wrong, in general when you are charged.

According to one chap that has more DG experience than anyone else alive, that I know of, recommends 40 cal, 400 gr, and 4000 ft-lbs each as minimums.

There were also alot of the oldtimers that got killed using the "standard fare" of the last century. They tend to be forgotten.

If nothing else, talk is cheap. When things go wrong you need the biggest and badest and sometimes that ain't enough to stop or turn if the brain is missed. It is not just penetration.

Will

Originally posted by Paul H:
I think the sitcom will continue forever, lets see it's been on the air for at least a year now?

I think its been perhaps half that time, starting with a 444 Marlin question, to the best of my knowledge. (How it got to a Guide Gun and the 45-70 I don't remember, but it did begat a Buffalo hunt for some lucky hunter.)

Anyhow, I don't care what a cartridge, ie brass case is called, nor do I care what type of rifle it is fitted to.
Neither do I. I made such comments, but it was dismissed as foolish talk. That it comes from you might hold some water this time.

What has been proven over the 100 year life of the smokeless cartridge, and consistant use in the African game fields is that a bullet with a sd of .30" or more, a muzzle velocity of 2200-2400 fps, and well constructed solid and jacketed bullets are reliable killers on dangerous game. There is no magic involved, just lots of field use, and lots of successful results.
I'm not sure if you and Mr Atkinson are allowed to declare 2,200 FPS as a starting point, since most here figure 2,400 is where it starts. I've long said a cartridge doesn't really need 2,400 FPS else it fails, but coming from me it's only foolish talk.
Although what you have said is true, there are exceptions to the rule. Perhaps not what some might consider adequate, but worthwhile alternitives. Just alternitives for those interested. Not to cause a complete change-over of ideas and known truths, not to dump and replace the stronger, larger rounds, but to offer something else. Simple as that.

While many lesser rounds with heavy bullets are capable of taking out both shoulders, the real world doesn't always present those shots. The above criteria works when things go well, as well as when they don't go so well.
I think DG is only dangerous due to the situations a hunter finds themselves in, or else all DG would be mauling people left and right out of spite, non-stop.
A good hunter will always try to wait for the right moment to shoot, and place their shot correctly, but as you said, it don't always happen this way. I equate this to why its regarded as DG hunting, not just shooting an animal. Thats part of it's charm, I'm afraid.

It all comes down to knowing the limitations of ones rifle, and shooting within them. The disagreements come from what limitations people wish to impose upon themselves, and assuming that others take the same stance. Then again there may be a few folks that think that less powerful weapons are fully equal to more powerful weapons, I simply don't buy that argument, but to each their own.
I tend to think those who go to Africa weigh their choices of cartridges/rifles whole heartedly, down to the detail, before heading out. This also applies to the levergun shooter, the bow and arrow, handgun, and muzzle loader hunters as well. They are no different.
Should someone decide to hunt DG with a levergun, then I'm sure they weighed all the possibilities involved. They just didn't choose one blindly. They know the limitations, and respect them. Double/CRF shooters are not above others in brain value simply because they choose these types of arms over other types.
Every hunter going after DG knows what they are getting into, or had better know, before the hunt begins. Levergun shooters are not being foolish, they know and respect the limitations of such a weopon, and thus produce successful results.
BTW I don't consider the 45-70 the equal, or better, of more powerful rounds. But I do think its suitable for the hunter, as an alternitive to those other rounds normally taken. ~~~Suluuq

[ 09-19-2002, 05:21: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ]

It would seem to me that 2200 fps or above would leave out alot of loads with a proven track record , original .404 loads at 2100 , the 450/400 doubles , even the hallowed .470 nitro express . I think the great .577 nitro was rated at 2050 . I believe Finn Aagard made the comment once that that the .470 cordite loads were probable clocked in 30 inch or so barrels and he figured the typical double hunting rifle likely ran around 2050 or so . He also seemed to have a good opinion of the .458 at about that speed .....

HI,

MR. Atkinson with all respect, you say a 40 cal with a 400 grain bullet at 2100-2400fps is okay for all DG, but how about a 570 at 2000 fps out of a win 86, or a 525 grain at 2150 fps is that okay. I think if a 400 grain at 2100fps is okay than a 570 grain 50 cal with a SD of .313 would also be good, but it is out of a lever I guess it will not work. I understand you hunt more than I ever will in Africa so I just am trying to make a piont with all respect. Thanks you, Kev

HI,

RUSTY GUNN you are on the money, Thanks,Kev

Kev,
I have no problem with 570 grs. at 2000 FPS, it should be hell on wheels,...

My problem is I think that you are in a pressure zone that I would not care to use in the African heat in an old Winchester lever action, that you are running at near 55,000 PSI, and I do not personally recommend that, as I stated in a previous posts, regardless of who may think the 1886 is capable of 55,000....but that is a personal choice...I only run about 50,000 PSI in my bolt actions.

I would hunt Buffalo with a 500 gr. bullet of 45 cal. with a flat nose solid at 1800 FPS, albeit it would be far from ideal, as a charge stopper.....

HI,

I think I see where we are on this MR. Atkinson and you are right. If a person had a older win there would be a problem, I would only use a modern win86 and that is the one I am having made into a 50-110.I was also told this by MR. Clay that a older win86 would have a problem, but due to the much stronger materals the new win86 or 71 will have to be the ones used.And I hope to get my mold for the 570 grain WFNGC bullet in around 4 weeks from ballistis cast. I had to start casting as no one had a mold for a 570 so I kind of had no choice in starting to cast.Thanks,Kev

55,000psi is way too darn much pressure in ANY lever gun, IMO! I don't care what Dave Clay, Buffalo Bore Ammo or anyone else says to the contrary. Take that lever rifle to Africa with loads that hot and you're asking for it when the temps get up in the 90s like they are prone to do!
Also, do you have any idea how much recoil a 570gr slug @ 2000fps or more will deliver? Those are the ballistics my old 577-3" double rifle gave, and even at 13 pounds it was lots more than I'd consider comfortable. Out of an 8 or 9 pound LA it will surely be downright brutal.

[ 09-20-2002, 00:15: Message edited by: John S ]

HI,

John S, I sure do know how the recoil is I had a Marlin in a 50 Alaskan with no muzzel brake and the rifle was around 7 pounds. I had no problem handling recoil, as for me recoil does not bug me at all.I will have a muzzel brake on this rifle with a thick pac pad.And once again the win 86 or 71 can handle 55,000psi and I am talking about modern win 86 and 71 not older ones.Thanks,Kev

I don't know how the 1886 action compares to the 1895 action , but the '95 will certainly handle 55000 psi . The new 95 s have been chambered to 30/06 and .270 .

The 94 angle eject also will handle some fairly warm rounds , I believe the .307 and .356 cartridges are loaded to just shy of 50000 cup .

Rusty,
In all fairness have you noticed how beefed up the Win. M-94 Big Bore is in the rear locking portion of the action, for that very reason....The std. 94 wouldn't handle that cartridge...

For anyone to believe the Win. M-71 or 86 can handle 55,000 PSI is ludicrus and just plain ridiculas...

Furthermore, IMHO I would not load a good new M-95 Win. or Browning to 55,000 on a everyday basis as I believe it would sooner or later develope head space simply due to action design, but anyone that wants to is welcome to as far as I'm concerned......I know brass doesn't last long in a bolt gun at 55,000 PSI, not CUP.

Ray , if 55,000 psi would be that hard on the newly manufactured 1895 s , why in the world would Winchester or Browning be making them in .270 or 06 ?

I think you are maybe confusing psi and cup . 55,000 psi would be fairly mild in a bolt rifle . The .270 is one of the hottest factory rounds loaded , pressure is up around 63 or 64000 psi .

How about the Savage 99 s ? The 308 is also a fairly hot cartridge , running around 62 or 63000 psi I believe .

What?

Another lever action thread and I was not invited?

SDgunslinger, I believe the point Ray is trying to make is that a big bore lever action loaded to 55000 psi will produce more thrust force than the lever action can handle.

A 270 Win loaded to 64000 psi produces a thrust force upon the locking mechanism of 6300 lbs.

A 45-70 loaded to 40000 psi produces a thrust force upon the locking mechanism of 4700 lbs.

A 45-70 loaded to 55000 psi produces a thrust force upon the locking mechanism of 6500 lbs

A 50-110 loaded to 55000 psi produces a thrust force upon the locking mechanism of 7600 lbs!

A 416 Rigby loaded to 47000 psi produces a thrust force upon the locking mechanism of 7500 lbs.

So to put this into perspective. A 45-70 loaded to 55000 psi is the equivalent of the full house 270 Winchester as far as the locking mechanism of you rifle is concerned. The thrust force of a 50-110 loaded to 55000 psi is equivalent to a 416 Rigby! Do you see how the thrust force increases as the cartridge base ID increases? This is the real issue not operating pressure.

I own a Ruger No1, which has been rebarreled and chambered in 50-110. I assure you that you will not get 2050 fps with a 570 grain bullet out of this cartridge without extraordinarily high pressures. My Ruger doesn't like this velocity at all. I can get to it but the pressure signs are frightening. My Ruger No1's accurate with an 1880 fps load using 535 gr Wooleighs. Anything faster and the accuracy goes to hell.

I can also assure you that the Ruger No1 is significantly stronger and stiffer than any, I repeat any, lever action. I would approach Mr. Clays loads with extreme caution! I wonder if his chronograph is functioning properly, myself.

Also, as Mike375, very accurately stated, the rear locking of a lever action does not lend itself to high pressure rounds and accurate shooting. You are better served with a 33000 psi load, which is what the old 50-110 express was load to.

Axel

HI,

AXEL,I would never push any load to 55,000psi, I am just saying it can handle up to that point. I would keep the it under 50,000psi around 48,000 psi. Thanks,Kev

Kev,

Pressure is meaningless unless the thrust area of the case is understood. The 50-110 brass I have, which is BeLL, has a thrust area of: 0.14 in^2.

The thrust force, which is the important number here, is operating pressure X case thrust area.

I do not know what your smith means when he says the action can handle 55000 psi. Which cartridge is he talking about. The is a marked difference in thrust force between a 45-70 loaded to 55000 psi and a 50-110! The difference is 1100 pounds of force, which amounts to about a 20% increase in stress. The M1886 in it's latest versions have been chambered in 45-70.

Also, what does your smith mean by, "can handle 55000 psi loads"? I have seen a bolt actions handle loads which generate pressures around 90000 psi. They would not handle these levels for long, however.

I guess I am only trying to let you know that most gunsmiths are salesman first and foremost. They have to be or they would not be in business for long. That said some tend to hype a product a bit. Chronographs are not very repeatable instruments as so many little things effect their repeatability. So a smith can exaggerate the truth a bit and get away with it.

I have shot 50-110 loads using IMR 3031 powder, in which I utilized a drop tube, filling the case completely. I them seated a 570 gr bullet. The act of seating the bullet actually bulged the case and I had a hard time loading it. I was not able to get 2100 fps even with this load. The primer as flat, smeared, burned. This is a Ruger No1 with a 24" barrel.

I would be incredibly surprised if your M1886 will launch a 570 gr pill over 1800fps without pressure signs.

Good luck and for cryin' out loud be careful with that thing!

Axel

Axel , I agree the bolt thrust is an important issue . From your own figures though , it appears the 1895 action would handle a VERY hot 45/70 load . The bolt thrust would be nearly identical to that of a .270 .

What these big levers will handle is hard to say at this point . It seems Kev may find out in a few weeks.

I still think the .405 case may have more potential than you would think . The head size should be very similar to the 06 cases .

I think the bolt thrust should be more of a consideration with the big boltgun rounds as well . Everyone gets excited if you load a 30/06 to over 60000 psi , yet will use something like the Ultramags loaded to the hilt without a thought .........

[ 09-21-2002, 22:39: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]

SDgunslinger, I am not so sure I would want to shoot a 270 Win in a Marlin 1895! Regarding thrust in a bolt gun. It is a very big thing with the larger big bore cartridges loaded up to high pressures. A 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs can set a bolt back real quick if loaded up to 55000 -60000 psi.

I hope Kev takes it easy and works up very carefully and slowly to the max loads of his 50-110 M1886.

Axel

AXEL, get ready to be incredibly surprised. Kev

Axel , I was refering to the 1895 Winchester action . They have been factory chambered to .270 ...

SDgunslinger, OK I get it finally. I been thinking about acquiring one, M1895 that is, in 405 Win. I am thinking that I can squeeze a few more fps out of it. Two things have kept me from this:
1.) Not having found a 405 Win M1895
2.) Concern about accuracy with high pressure 405 loads.

The reason I like the 405 is that I should be able to get close to 411 Hawk / 400 Whelen ballistics with no additional rifle work required. This would give me true entry level big bore ballistics without the high thrust force associated with a 45 or 50 caliber cartridge.

Axel

Post moved to Big Bores section.

[ 09-22-2002, 19:47: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Axel , I spyed one of those 1895 .405 s at the Scheels store in Sioux Falls , SD a couple of weeks ago . I think it was a standard grade with a price sticker on it about $995.00 . If you are interested , I can look up the phone number and such for you ......

Recoil on a 570 grain bullet at 2000 fps muzzle velocity would be 67 ft.lbs. (9.5 lb rifle)

.416 Rigby with 400 grain at 2500 would be 68 Ft. lbs. with the same weight rifle.

.338 Ultra mag with 250 grain at 2950 would be 48 ft. lbs. with same weight rifle.

Any of the faster calibers would feel worse relative to these numbers as the acceleration of the bullet would be higher. Force = mass times acceleration. the peak of that acceleration is the "punch" you feel.

And yes the .416 will likely be of a higher weight rifle but you can add weight to any of these to help tame recoil.

Axel,
I don't understand you bolt thrust calculation. I have a 50/110 case at home. The 50/110 has the same size case head as the 45/70. It gets its increse in powder capacity due to its smaller rim. If bolt thrust is proportional to case head size wouldn't the bolt thrust be the same for the 45/70 and 50/110 at the same given pressure?

Y'all may find it interesting that P.O. Ackley did some tests on "bolt thrust" some years back. He doubted the traditional thoughts on the strength of various action types, and determined to find out. He ground the bolt lugs off a Winchester lever action bolt and fired it with the action held closed only by the lever. With the chamber dry, he encountered no problems. The case apparently sticks in the chamber, which contains most of the thrust, and the bolt just keeps it from stretching too much. With the chamber oiled, things came apart.

I'm not taking sides here; just thought you might find the experiement interesting.

jnc, the rim may be the same diameter, I don't have any 45-70 here to measure. The bgase diameter of the case body is 0.5053" on my 50-110 brass. This I know is bigger in diameter than a 45-70. The sectioned 50-110 brass I have has an inside diameter at the base of 0.4178".

So the thrust force is determined by:

[(0.4178"^2*3.14159)/4]*pressure. For a pressure of 55000 psi this is approximately 7600 lbs of thrust.

Axel

According to my Hodgdon book , the diameter of the .45/70 case just above the rim is .505 . So it would appear the two cases have the same head and bolt thrust would be identical .....

SDgunslinger,

I am sorry I typoed the base diameter in my last post. It should have been 0.5503". If the 45-70 is .505" then the 50-110 is about 0.045" bigger in diameter. Again the outside diameter is not the significant dimension. It is the inside diameter of the case which is important. A 45-70 will not thrust as hard as a 50-110 when both are loaded to the same pressure.

Axel

I think we have wondered off of Paul's initial post on this topic.

What is the wound channel of DG ctgs?

Alright you guys, get out your recovered bullets like Nick did with his awsome 505 570 gr Barnes X and 450 gr 458 Barnes X and measure them. Convert to square inches and multiply times penetration. Now you have permanant wound cavity.

I have never seen a Barnes X expand down into the bearing surfgace of the bullet like Nicks 505 did.a I suspect the heavy bullets continue to expand over a long time compared to lighter bullets that slow down quickly.

Andy