Taking "big bore" to mean 40 cal and over, has the 404 Jeffrey been the most successful big bore of all time?

Is it the 30/06 and 375 of the big bores

Mike

Based upon sales of rifles or ammo I would suspect not. I'd have to give that title to the 458 Winchester magnum, much as I hate to admit it.

John,
You didn't HAVE to tell them!!

I think the 404 was the most popular and used bolt gun for a short period in African history, mostly because it was adopted by Game Depts and the game dept. people didn't turn them in when they left...

The 458 took over shortly after production made them available and the ammo was available, so it became the choice, but not because it was worth a damn, it was just all we had...

If you consider the 375 and 9.3x62 big bores I believe they would both topple the rest and the 375 would be hands down the winner by a landslide..but you said over 40.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

One continually sees reference on these forums (and articles) that the 458 got going because it was all we had.

Why did the others die out.

Mike

Because it was relatively inexpensive and available...because you could get a new one that hadn't been handed down thru a bunch of people who hadn't taken care of it...ammunition was also relatively inexpensive and available...Americans like it because it was developed by Winchester in America.....and most people didn't have access to a chronograph.

Ammunition for traditional British and European big bores dried up with the advent of World War II. During and after the war, German and Austrian outfits such as DWM, Steyr, RWS, etc. produced nothing in the way of African cartridges.

Prior to the war, Eley and Kynoch continued limited production of the various British-designed African cartridges. Because of emergency retooling needs caused by WWII, almost all of the original ammunition tooling was modified, destroyed, or lost. At the end of the war, the limited demand for these rather specialized didn't justify the expense of retooling. "Not made after the war" was posted for quite a few of these British big bore calibers.

So a lot of fine and useful rifles could no longer be put to use after WWII as pre-war ammunition supplies dried up.

So Winchester came out with the Model 70 "African" in 1956 to fill the gap. The rifle itself was reliable and comparatively inexpensive, and the ammunition was also comparatively inexpensive. More importantly, it was AVAILABLE, and Winchester made sure that there was plenty of .458 ammo to go around.

An interesting sidenote: Winchester produced only 1,226 Model 70's in .458 Win. prior to 1964 (.21% of total Model 70 production).

AD

Allen,

That figure on the number of 458s sold confirms what John and I have often said to each other, that is, most of the big caliber noise is on the boards, not out in the land of the gun buyer.

Big bores as in over 30 caliber seem to be totally dominated in America by the 338 and 45/70. Australia would be the 375 (especially BRNOS) and 45/70.

What would European countries and Africa be.

Mike

This very morning, I shot both a .404 Jeffery and a .458 Win Mag. The .458 was really unique. It was a left hand Savage with a barrel turned down from a massive blank. It has an integral front sight ramp, barrelband for swivel and two huge recoil lugs. It has a carbon-impregnated fiberglass stock of some unknown manufacturer. The magazine holds 3 rounds and one in the spout. The gun/scope weighs 9.5 pounds with a 1.5x5 Leupold on QD mounts. I got over 2130 fps with both 450 grain X-bullets and solids. They have the same S.D. as the 300 grain .375, so penetration should be o.k. The rifle was not mine. I was making sure the scope was still "on" for a friend who is taking it to Africa in a few days. He is out of town and will arrive only a few hours before his flight goes back out to RSA, etc. He had fooled with the rifle a bunch earlier this spring but got tied up in another state on business and wanted to make sure it was o.k. before packing it up. Both solid and X's hit a 4" bull at 110 meters. The X's grouped 2.5 inches by themselves, so he should do just fine.

I then shot my .404 Jeffery for the first time in a year. It still puts out 400 grain X's and solids at 2355 and groups them both within the same 2". If there is a better DGR that doesn't whack you in the shoulder about as bad as it whacks the game, I just don't know what it is. Sighted in a couple of inches high at 100 yards, I can kill a roan at 200 yards without thinking much about it. More oooumph than a .375 and flat enough to shoot about as far as I can hold. And no real recoil either. It may not be the "most successful" of all "bigger" bores, but I've never failed to eat what I shot at with it. I wish Winchester would make some in their Classic series instead of having to get them from a custom builder. I coulda bought a couple of Yugos instead of my rifle. Love it though!

[This message has been edited by judgeg (edited 05-26-2001).]

Judgeg,
You bet, we got it figured out...How I love the 404 and none of my teeth are falling out..The 416 is another, but just doesn't have that cross-section to be a good killer!!!

I just added the last for John S., it seems to stir his emotions, but not much lately..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
Never mind... The 404 is a nice round and I have nothing against it, but compared to a Rigby, nawwwww. Panache, charisma and style compared to plain vanilla? If a USA maker like WW would make one I might buy it just to say I have one, but since the 416 Rem. IS available I'd likely buy it first anyway!

Actually the 404 has been my choice for one reason..I really like the way that long torpedo looking case feeds and extracts and it has no belt ( I'm not sure the belt makes any difference, I'n not a belt basher)..Also it does not require a Magnum action as the 416 Rigby does and that always bothered me..

It is just a well designed case with one design fault, a tapered case and that fault goes with feeding and extraction. You have to trim the cases a lot..but with the availability of the new X-dies that problem is solved...

The Rigby is a grand old girl, and this is ment as no insult to her...John, don't take this as a moment of weakness, it's sinility.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Actually the 404 has been my choice for one reason..I really like the way that long torpedo looking case feeds and extracts and it has no belt ( I'm not sure the belt makes any difference, I'n not a belt basher)..Also it does not require a Magnum action as the 416 Rigby does and that always bothered me..

It is just a well designed case with one design fault, a tapered case and that fault goes with feeding and extraction. You have to trim the cases a lot..but with the availability of the new X-dies that problem is solved...

The Rigby is a grand old girl, and this is ment as no insult to her...John, don't take this as a moment of weakness, it's sinility.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Yep Ray, all of those reasons are why I went 404j for my DG rifle. After a brief fling w/ the 458lott, I neededsomething that hit the animal hard but left me intact. The 42 bores seem about perfect & can be had in managable weight rifles & neatly double as a PG rifle easily out to 200yds.

Eight years for a reply has to be some kind of record!

I too am considering a 404 Jeffery. Have compared it to the 416's and it looks like the way to go. Don't know about the 416 Ruger yet though.

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:
Eight years for a reply has to be some kind of record!

I agree!

I hereby nominate Fredj338 as "King of the Necropost!"

quote:

Originally posted by McCray:
Eight years for a reply has to be some kind of record!

Happy New Year
And thanks for the laugh
Havi'n shot many big bores from the 9.3x62 up to Bitterrot's 700AHR i too agree the 404 Jeffery might be perfect. ...Oh, then there's the 450 G&A Short...HHHMMMM

The 404 just might historically be the "all time" big killer in Africa considering that it was widely used during the Tetsee fly eradicarion scheme. From what I understand, there were literally tens of thousands of animals shot with 404s.

Some older Zim folks might enlighten us on this epoch. I was told that there was literally "wholesale" slaughter of everything mammalian within certain areas. The 404 was one of the main tools of the trade.

JW

No, the .404 Jeffery is not the most successful big bore of all time. The .450 Rigby, .470 Nitro, .45-70, .416 Rigby, and of couse the .458 Winchester Magnum are at the top of the list.

I know I love mine! It puts Swifts and Woodie solids to the same POA at 100 yds and 4 of each go inside 2". AND....it doesn't beat you like a pi$$ed off mule...something to be said for that.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
The 404 just might historically be the "all time" big killer in Africa considering that it was widely used during the Tetsee fly eradicarion scheme. From what I understand, there were literally tens of thousands of animals shot with 404s.

Some older Zim folks might enlighten us on this epoch. I was told that there was literally "wholesale" slaughter of everything mammalian within certain areas. The 404 was one of the main tools of the trade.

JW

Not many 404's used for the tsetse fly campaign from what'I've read.

But just two guys, Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, killed almost 10,000 elephants between them with the 458wm!

Niether had any complaints, let alone horror stories and both remain big fans.

Long live the 458wm!!!

JPK