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Can someone please explain to me if there is an elephant overpopulation somewhere, such as Botswana, why the prices to hunt these animals do not drop? If there is an area that is overpopulated, lower the trophy fee and daily rate to a total of $5,000. This would get countless more hunters over there. Once the population is at a stable amount, raise the price. Come on Africa, isn't that this basic supply and demand economics? | ||
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+1 DRSS Searcy 470 NE | |||
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Why in the world with all the stupid B.S. going on in Africa would you expect common sence to come into play? LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Ozultra, That would make too much sense. African governments have about as much common sense as our own! | |||
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OZultra, the place where most of the overpopulation occurs in takes more than 5K to conduct a hunt. Petro is around 11 rand a liter works out to about 4.75 a gallon (30 gallons to pick you up and drop you off and driving in the block--$175 in fuel), he usually has a camp--and camp staff (cook, cleaning staff,tracker,and skinners (say $1400 conservitive) you fly 18 to 30 hr on a plane--do you just want to stay 5 days-- no...you like to eat right? Food cost at least $12 a meal (2 meals a day 7 days= $170 in meals just for you) In camp the hunters time is worth at least 200-300 a day to organise all this and protect you 300x7=$2100...I see the hunter is in it damn near $4,000 and has not really made a cent. That leaves 1,000 to 2,000 for a trophy fee...Sorry just dont see it. Nice thought though, and yes they would get more people---but its not going to happen. Ed DRSS Member | |||
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While there is an overpopulation in some areas, I doubt there is an overpopulation of trophy bulls. It seems the price of PAC and tuskless is fairly low. Not the big guys. Make sense or am I incorrect? Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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There are many expenses in operating a Safari camp. And if PAC animals could in exported and hunted for say near $10,000 that would be a win for all parties. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You've got the strongest hand in the world. That's right. Your hand. The hand that marks the ballot. The hand that pulls the voting lever. Use it, will you" John Wayne | |||
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I don't know but I assume that 100% of the Bots quota is sold each year. If the quota is 50 let's just say, and there are 50 people in the world willing to pay the asking price, then all will sell for full asking price. In economics this is called inelastic demand. Only if supply of elephants exceeds the number of people who are willing to pay full price will the price respond to the market and become elastic. ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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Ozultra, Overpopulation?  A simple definition: Overpopulation = Too many eaters on too small area? You suggest to make it easier to reduce the number of eaters? I quite agree that this is a good plan.  But we have Africans governing in Africa, so there is absolutely no hope for common sense to prevail in Government decisions.  In southern Africa there are many large areas with too many elephants. So the problem of African Governmental stupidity is unfortunately very real!  Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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And remember CITES plays a role as well in the limited elephant export permit quotas. Just out of interest, Ron Thomson in his book on managing the biodiversity sums the elephant issue up quite neatly. In order to control the elly population in I think Botswana or Zim, they would have to take off something like 10000, and the remaining national herd would still reproduce at between 15-20% per annum, requiring an annual cull quota in the thousands. Do the math, how many per day would need to be culled, logistically how would all that meat be processed, what kind of facilities and resources would be needed to handle that amount of protein? getting the carcasses to a central point for lets say canning, given that road infrastructure in the elly areas is mostly non existent. No way on Gods green earth can the local population consume that amount of meat, and I know they can eat. Letting the cascases lie and rot should not be an option. Shooting is just a part of the solution. Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
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Ian Khama and his ilk are the elephant's worst enemy. His ancestors are spinning in their graves. And the elephant are rushing into theirs. Awful. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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And the Jouberts are sipping single malts. 
The Kruger had it all sorted out. The meat was recovered, canned, all in a 'state of the art butchery and cannery.' The skins were salted and sold on to leather works, the ivory auctioned and the canned meat stored and as required sold to locals at a reduced price. Then came IFAW, SCAR, Animal Rights Africa, Prof Rudi van Aardt and other assorted wankers and twats, who quite easily brow beat whiney 'Kort Broek' [ short pants as in shoolboy shorts,] into a state of quivering terror, who then said, "Okay, please leave me alone, I am only a scared little politician, then I will stop culling and management stuff." And so it came to pass.  | |||
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Prices do not move in the presence of an elephant overpopulation for the same reason a cartel like DeBeers is able to charge a great deal of money for relatively common diamonds. They have what amounts to a monopoly control over the supply and are able to restrict the available quantity thus raising the price to a level that offers them greater profits. Sure, a country like Zim could let the market determine the price of elephants, but the quality of hunts would decline dramatically as there are not enough PHs to handle the increase in quantity...and NO ONE would make as much money (including the government!) | |||
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I think CITES should allow all elephants taken in a hunt to be exportable. I think many hunters would gladly go to Zim (or any country) and pay $6,000-$8,000 and shoot a broken bull, cow, or problem elephant if they could bring home whatever they wanted from the elephant they shot. Where's the harm in bringing home a 20 lb tusk, or some extra elephant hide to make myself an ammo belt or gun case? I like the suggestions above about canning the meat to ship out all over the world to hungry people. Would not building canning plants and everything that goes with it provide jobs and money into the local economies? Maybe I am just a stupid American capitalist? How about relocating some elephants that did not get taken care of during hunting season into countries whose elephant populations are hurting? Maybe relocating would be too expensive.... | |||
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Would love if they sent some our way while their at it... | |||
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+1 Africa is the deep dark continent where intelligence and logic evaporate and where you have to live in a cage to protect yourself. TIA ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Can you imagine the bile and spleen from the Greenies when they discover that people want to "introduce" alien animals and then HUNT them (in STATE forests, with an R (licence) - heart attacks all round at Greenie headquarters - so all in all importing elephants would be a good thing. -- Promise me, when I die, don't let my wife sell my guns for what I told I her I paid for them. | |||
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Start killing all the tuskless cows without calves at very discounted prices then the tusked cows. | |||
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Simply put reduction in the numbers required means WHOLE herds need to be eliminated. Taking extra trophy bulls is not the answer and neither is a few extra tuskless. The equation will never be able to entertain paying guests as it will need to be done by professionals and unfortunately those that past experience are few and far between now. It is not a pleasant job culling, exciting yes but ending in shooting baby eles is not fun. | |||
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I managed to put tuskless on essentially unlimited quota at the 1997 Cites COP 10 Experience has proven that shooting female elephants selectively to be a bad policy. The 'culls', brutal as they were - were the only effective means of reducing elephant populations. The meat was all processed, as were the skins. Zimbabwe no longer has that capability. The use of the 12,7 rotary machineguns on the Mil 35 helicopters was tried for culling and failed to provide the solution. Cost for running even a PAC / Tuskless hunt runs to over 5k US$ in zimabwe- before you have to pay anybody for the animal- and the councils, let alone parks do not give the animals avaw- even in the presence of 'over population'. Moçambiqw wanted 2000 elephant to restock a national park- the US government offered the transport for free and what killed the deal was the Zimbabwe parks demanding US$ 3000 per animal given to help Moz restock!!!! | |||
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Like a farmer refusing the give a horse away that he cannot afford to feed. Brilliant. | |||
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Unpleasant as it may be - I know plenty of clients who will jump at the chance - and pay WELL!! I do not understand the logistics of doing this there - just the interest. A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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David Blunt's book, "Elephant" is an excellent read if you can find it. As Buzz says, whole herds, essentially family groups of all age classes, need to be culled. Professionals are the only way to do it effectively, but in today's world, bad press would be the immediate result, and we all know that the price tag on an African Gov't official is less than a cow ele tag! For the record, there ARE permits for exportable tuskless cows at quite reasonable expense, just not enough to really make much difference. Cheers, Tim | |||
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Zim tried reducing the elephant population in the 40s and 50s by using sport hunters with unlimited quota. The net result was the establishment of the "Zambezi Ladies". Some of the most truculent and dangerous elephants in existence. Not even all of the Zim Parks Rangers were qualified to do cull work. Clem Coetsee was very selective in who was part of his culling team. To try to use sport hunters for that would be madness! 465H&H | |||
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Would letting a hunter stalk and take two each one tusk bulls appeal to anyone? I know this would not effect the overpopulation issue. How many bulls with one really nice tusk are passed over by a hunter to settle for matching 40 lbs a side. Just Thinking........ | |||
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465H&H, I can't vouch for anyone else, but as a near-victim of the "Zambezi Ladies" last year, I would be very interested in how the group was created. Cheers, Tim | |||
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Tim, The African hunting literature is heavy with tales of individual herds of elephant that are extremely dangerous above and beyond what you would normally expect from matriarch cows protecting their off spring. The most common denominator seems to be the mount of poaching that the herds have experienced. If you haven't read Months of the Sunby Ian Nyschens, he gives his experience with the Ladies in it. Perhaps Don Heath or Ganyana can step in here and give us their perspective as they have a lot more info based on elephant behavior than I do. 465H&H | |||
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