I thought I might as well start a new thread for this.



The 375 H&H rifle we are using. I will use our 375/404 at the higher velocities later on.



How is that for guessing an exact velocity!



The test box. I am standing at the rear end of it. Bullets enter from the other end.



You can see the bullet sticking out of the browb board, on which is the tapoe measure.





Notice on the last photo how the splatter from the wood piece are spread as the petals of the bullet expanded.

This is going to be interesting

You have some cool toys.

Saeed,

What is the depth of penetration? Are the boards pine and straight line penetration.

Mike

What bullet are you shooting for this test?

Both the boards and the chopping boards are 20mm thick.

The boards are not pine, they are MDF.

As you can see, we have arranged them with 20mm seperation between the boards, alternating one MDF and one chopping board.

I have shot 6 bullets so far, and have already gotten some rather weird and hard to explain results!

I will post photos and details.

That is some powerful bullet braking to get it stopped that short,
but it was only 2200 fps for a .375/300-grain Walterhog soft, eh?

Saeed,

Bullet stability will vary at different velocities. The forward movement of a bullet will decrease rapidly because of wind resistance and drag but the rotational velocity decreases more slowly. I would predict your results for bullets shot at 100 yards, for example, to be very different than the results for bullets shot at 10 yards.

What distance are you shooting from?

Distance is approximately 35 yards.

1. Walterhog 300 grain - 2200 fps - penetrated 7 and got stuck in number 8 (this bullet we have specifically made for shooting buffalo in herds. It generally goes through a broadside buffalo, but not a quartering one.

2. GS Custom 300 grains - 2248 fps - penetrated 13 boards, and stuck in number 14.

3. Walterhog experimental 300 grain - 2237 fps - tumbeld, penetrated 5, and got stuck in number 6.

4. Walterhog solid, copper, 300 - 2216 - penetrated 15, and stopped in number 16. BUT, the surprise is that it was POINTING TAIL FORWARD in the 16th board. THere is no sign that the bullet tumbelled, as the holes are all clean!!?

5. Sierra 300 SP - 2266 - penetrated 7, and stopped in number 8.

6. Barnes X original 300 - 2214 fps - penetrated 9 and stopped in number 10.

I have taken photos of all these, and will post as I process them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Distance is approximately 35 yards.

1. Walterhog 300 grain - 2200 fps - penetrated 7 and got stuck in number 8 (this bullet we have specifically made for shooting buffalo in herds. It generally goes through a broadside buffalo, but not a quartering one.

2. GS Custom 300 grains - 2248 fps - penetrated 13 boards, and stuck in number 14.
Was this the GSC HV soft or FN solid?

3. Walterhog experimental 300 grain - 2237 fps - tumbeld, penetrated 5, and got stuck in number 6. A too-soft soft?

4. Walterhog solid, copper, 300 - 2216 - penetrated 15, and stopped in number 16. BUT, the surprise is that it was POINTING TAIL FORWARD in the 16th board. THere is no sign that the bullet tumbelled, as the holes are all clean!!?
If your Walterhog solid can flip end to end in the air between boards, then there is a possiblity that a round nose solid could show some veering tendency. This may be a more useful test medium than I thought possible from Walter.

5. Sierra 300 SP - 2266 - penetrated 7, and stopped in number 8.

6. Barnes X original 300 - 2214 fps - penetrated 9 and stopped in number 10.

I have taken photos of all these, and will post as I process them.

I think 35 yards to target is great.
Moving it out any farther is not necessary.

Very interesting test. Those GS Customs are some serious bullets and the only ones that I use in all of my rifles.

The GS Custom is the one with the HP and labeled for 378 Weatherby.

The Experimental Walterhog was designed for rapid expansion with a larger and deeper hollow point.

20 mm of air between 20 mm each of MDF and polyethylene is a stroke of genius.
Compliments to mastermind Walter.

I can adjust the air gap in increments of 20mm, so does anyone think it might be of benefit to have the gap increased to say, 40mm, 60mm or even bigger?

We have two boxes of about 6 feet each, which I think provide over 190 spaces of 20mm each.

Each of these spaces can be an MDF board, chopping board or air space.

Increasing the air gap to 60 mm would allow the bullets
to fully clear each board before hitting another one,
reduce the "tail slap" stabilization,
allow wobble between boards if there is that tendency with a certain bullet.
It would also increase the "resolving power" of the test
to show a better view of any tendency to deviate from
straight line.

If I were doing this penetration test, I would set the boards at 60 mm apart with the space between each board filled with a fine saw dust that had been soaked in water and packed down somewhat.

This would make things wet and messy, but animal tissue is wet not dry. The boards would simulate bone and the packed wet saw dust would simulate muscle.

Because this is going to be more difficult to set up, I’d have all my ducks in a row, and try to get as much from the penetration medium as possible.

I'd use hunting bullets that are commonly used on Cape buffalo or elephant and are readily available worldwide, such as Barnes TSX, Barnes solids (RN and FN), Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw or Sledgehammer, GS Custom HVs and FNs, Nosler Partitions and solids, Nosler Accubond, Hornady DGX, CEB NonCon HP and solid FNs, North Fork softs and FN bullets, etc.

Also, I’d use .375 (~300 gr) and .416 (~400) bullets fired at 2200 fps, 2600 fps, and 2900 fps. .458 (500 gr) fired at 2000, 2200, and 2400 fps.

." Walterhog solid, copper, 300 - 2216 - penetrated 15, and stopped in number 16. BUT, the surprise is that it was POINTING TAIL FORWARD in the 16th board. THere is no sign that the bullet tumbelled, as the holes are all clean!!?"



Is there any way that this bullet turned back-to-front IN the test box? Or, Is it possible that it reversed before it got to the test box, in the first 35 yards?

Sorry, but I have to say that anything named after Walter is likely to go through the world bass-ackwards!

I'm a little puzzled by the velocities. Generally a 300 grain bullet form a 375 H&H is shot at 2500 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm a little puzzled by the velocities. Generally a 300 grain bullet form a 375 H&H is shot at 2500 fps.

Saeed is working his way up.
First a nod to the low velocity fans.
2500 fps is coming soon, and more.
Typical impact velocity of a 300-grain/.375 soft is less than MV anyway, so 2200 fps is a good start.

Saeed,
How about some cheap cuts of meat between the 60mm-spaced boards? Tenderize them with bullets, then Walter can BBQ ... just kidding.
60 mm of air will be more interesting.

That Walterhog solid that ended up tail forward: Quite the flip inside of 20mm.
Was its resting location much off center from the hole in the last board it fully penetrated?
Like it landed sideways and then stood up and buried its tail with the last of its momentum???
Having bullet center of gravity rearward (most all solids) would tend to encourage that as the bullet came to rest.

Gentlemen,

The bullet must have turned tail forward in the box, not before it hit it. If it had turned before hitting the box, it would have kept tumling and showed signs of that in the boards as it passed.

I started at 2200 fps because we have had many arguments that slow moving bullets penetrate better than fast one.

After I have shot the bullets I have at this velocity, my plan is to keep increasing the velocity at approximately 100 fps.

On the Walterhog that landed reversed, I think we need to contact David Copperfield.
I am interested in the experimental Walterhog tumbling at that velocity and distance. Any ideas on why that happened? What were the design changes other than the deeper and wider hollowpoint?

Saeed & RIP,

The space between boards is 20 mm. Is not the length of the bullet more than an inch or so? So over 25.4 mm. Seems difficult to see this tumbling between the boards as the nose would be touching the next board before the tail completely exited the last board. Just a thought.
Perhaps Walter switched a load on you?

Esskay,
We need to see a picture of that Walterhog solid stuck tail first into the 16th board, eh?
And a picture of the hole in board 15 adjacent hopefully.

Even numbered boards are polyethylene: 2,4,6 ... 16?
Odd, numbered boards are MDF: 1,2,3 ... 15?



If the bullet emerged from #15 (MDF) with a big yaw angle as it crossed the 20mm of air and slammed into the tough polyethylene (#16),
it is predictable that a solid bullet with center of gravity closer to base than nose could have buried its base in the 16th board.
Makes perfect sense to me.
The boards also flex some under impact, spring back and oscillate, and increase the air gap for milliseconds?

This is not to impugn the bullet if it stayed straight up to that 15th board.
All bullets wobble at the end of flight,
unless they are flying in a solid stack of uniform, hard, first-order medium where tailslap and "sideslap" keeps them going straight/nose-forward until they stop.

Here is the GSC .375/300-gr FN wobbling to a stop as it comes out of plywood with bags of water between the wood.
It is the IronWaterboardBuffalo champ of penetration at 2700 fps.
It stayed dead straight until it stopped like this:



Saeed catching a bullet in his board #16 with base forward is great news for this "WalterTest" medium.
I think increasing the air gap to 60 mm,
will make it a better "comparator" of various bullets.

RIP,

I was just logging on after clarifying my thoughts .

"If the bullet emerged from #15 (MDF) with a big yaw angle as it crossed the 20mm of air and slammed into the tough polyethylene (#16),
it is predictable that a solid bullet with center of gravity closer to base than nose could have buried its base in the 16th board.
Makes perfect sense to me."

Exactly!

If the bullet tumbled between boards A & B, 20 mm apart, bullet at least 25 mm long, it can't do so without leaving some evidence of the tumble or an oblong hole in board A. How is it possible? I think the other piece of evidence we need is the final length of the bullet when it was stopped by board B. Perhaps it was shorter than than the distance between the boards? And yes, the flex of the boards is an issue but don't you think that would make the "free" distance (between nose contacting Board B and tail exiting Board A) even less than 20 mm? Just thinking aloud here.

Regards

This is complicated.
1 million frame per second video looking down into the bullet trap would help.

Over-pressure as the bullet bursts through #15 would tend to flex both #15 and #16 apart from each other,
and that #15 might already be rebounding from the opposite flex with bullet entrance on its other side.

Ask Walter what is going on?

Walter has answer, as usual.

He says as the bullet is moving in free space, it gets longer.

And as it hits anything, it gets shorter!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Walter has answer, as usual.

He says as the bullet is moving in free space, it gets longer.

And as it hits anything, it gets shorter!!

OMG Incredible answer..now who are talking speed of light velocities You guys are just amazing....I shall have to do some more arm chair thinking tonight..or meditation on this issue

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
This is complicated.
1 million frame per second video looking down into the bullet trap would help.

Over-pressure as the bullet bursts through #15 would tend to flex both #15 and #16 apart from each other,
and that #15 might already be rebounding from the opposite flex with bullet entrance on its other side.

Ask Walter what is going on?

But would not the friction of the bullet passing through 15, as it is going through it tend to flex it towards 16? Or am I being too simplistic here? I still find it difficult to believe the bullet tumbled between boards, without any evidence i.e. no oblong holes in board 15 but backwards in #16...I still think Walter switched a bullet on Saeed!

Esskay,
Saeed is not as easily fooled as you think.
He says the bullet went into the trap nose first.
If absent-minded genius Walter said that, there might be room for suspicion.
Saeed loaded that ammo, not Walter.

There is not much friction on the sides of a bullet in MDF board, as it punches out a hole of about diameter caliber,
and there is likely to be some temporary cavitation as the bullet track expands away from the bullet as the bullet passes.

What is behind the bullet does not matter so much as what is ahead of it when it burst through #15.
Blah, blah, no need to repeat what I said above already ...

Let us wait and see if Saeed can reproduce some bullet flips with FN solid ... with attention to holes in last two boards of the stop.



How about this?
The boards are so close that the expanded softpoint tail barely clears the board behind it.
And the MDF wood chips are splattered forward onto the polyethylene board in a burst pattern caused by the expanded soft.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

You can see the bullet sticking out of the browb board, on which is the tapoe measure.





Notice on the last photo how the splatter from the wood piece are spread as the petals of the bullet expanded.

Is it IMPOSSIBLE for that bullet to turn around and then stabilize in the first 35 yards?

Isn't this "wide, flat meplat in the extreme? Maybe that is why it penetrated so far?

Where is Gerard when we need him?

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Is it IMPOSSIBLE for that bullet to turn around and then stabilize in the first 35 yards?

Flip 180 degrees in mid air travel of 35 yards between muzzle and target from a 1:12" twist at 2200 fps?
With a .375/300-grain WH copper FN?
Totally impossible!!!

Saeed,
What happened to the picture of the "flippin' solid" imbedded tail first?

I am guessing the flipping bullet is a solid of WalterHog design similar to these?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Flip 180 degrees in mid air travel of 35 yards between muzzle and target from a 1:12" twist at 2200 fps?
With a .375/300-grain WH copper FN?
Totally impossible!!!

OK if you say so I'm with you. But WTF happened? It would be nice to have those camera's filming these tests! Flipped around 180 degrees with no evidence? Yikes!

It was probably the Bulliet beverage that made me ask!

The bullet likely flipped around just before it stopped and was moving very slowly - that is, the point at which it was most unstable.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
The bullet likely flipped around just before it stopped and was moving very slowly - that is, the point at which it was most unstable.

Yep, I bet Captain Obvious would say the same thing. 20 mm of space between two boards that can flex would be no obstacle to the flip,
especially if the bullet was still moving fast enough to imbed itself in #16, instead of just bouncing off.

Indeed we can look at board flex as a different sort of temporary wound cavity.

Here is an old ALF-ism saved before it became a ".":



This applies to nondeforming solids.
Increasing velocity increases penetration in all media.
With softs, as the nose expansion increases with velocity of impact,
this increases resistance due to a bullet characteristic as well as the penetration medium characteristic dependent on velocity.
Penetration can decrease with increased velocity when using a softpoint/expanding bullet.
Captain Obvious.

It will be interesting to see how increasing velocity of a WalterHog FN solid affects penetration in WalterTest medium.
What sort of curve will it follow?

I predict that penetration will increase with velocity.

ALF also said that scaling can be used to predict the behavior of larger or smaller bullets,
so a .375 is all you need in the laboratory, just like in the field.
Bigger and smaller calibers will be just for amusement in penetration testing:

Putting on my engineers hat, I would suggest that the whole test is flawed. (That's a pretty bold statement for me...)

However, reason is that wood is not a homogenious substance. It varies in density, moisture content, grain structure, etc.

I would therefore suggest what the pros use and that is balistic jell. You can even set up a high speed camera and see what the bullet's terminal performance looks like.

Info on Jell.

quote:

Putting on my engineers hat, I would suggest that the whole test is flawed

I tend to agree with the test is flawed. 98% of living tissue is water.

Better to use phone books soaked in water for 3 days and stack them together.....usually 10-15 phone books will do the trick.

dale

Gentlemen,

WE are not trying to duplicate animal tissue.

WE are trying to see how far different bullets, at different speeds, would penetrate into the medium we have.

In the past we have seen correlation between penetration in wood panels and field performance.

A few years ago we tried our own Walterhog bullets, and have found that best penetration was at around 2700-2800 fps.

And this was also true with their performance in the field on buffalo.

Saeed, if you already know the answer - why repeat? AIU