Whats the future of this Grand cartridge ? Does it have one ? Can you buy a rifle chambered in this caliber, one that isnt a custom, or semi-custom, order ?

My fascination with the .404 J is mainly from the reading ive done of its use as a issued DG rifle for Africa's Game Dept.'s, back in the time when most of the problems were rouge animals, and not Humans.

I forget the name of the one Game Cop who had quite a career with the .404, but, I read some of his stories and they were fascinating. They also reflected the high regard these officers had for the .404 Jeff when a dangerous animal was causeing problems and needed to be sorted out.

One story, I read it while in Africa , really sticks in my mind. This officer had a problem Lion on his hands ; I dont remember exactly what the animal had done but it needed immediate attention. The guy, "grabbed my .404 Jeffrey from the crowded rack and left with a few tracker's to sort out the problem".

That alones speaks volumes about the round ; Here's a very experienced Africa hand, about to stalk a problem Lion alone,well as the only shooter, and he "grabs the .404" without a second thought, and from among the crowded gun rack who's other rifles had to wait, to get some field time, until this problem was sorted out.

After a long, difficult, and dangerous track the Lion was killed at close range in the heavy bush. I dont remember a lot of details of this article but the Math is easy to remember, Dangerous problem animal + good hunting techniques + use of a rifle chambered in .404 Jeffrey = problem sorted out.

I read a lot of stories along the lines of that one, and , The respect and admiration my friend Ray Atkinson has for the round is of no small importance to me, when Ray recomends a round I listen.

Maybe there are better platforms for launching 400 grn bullets, maybe all these fancy .375's, .416's, and other "newer" rounds look much more sparkling, then the .404 J, on paper ; But, Do they really kill any better ? That plus the fact nobody will ever convince me that there isnt a need for a round that fits in the middle between the .375 and the .416.

Im surprised there arent more .404 shooter's in the states. Its certainly a good round to have in your hands for a Griz hunter, and tho it may Kill Elk a little to dead I think it would make do for a dandy timber Elk-er.

I cant even find load data for the Jeff in any of my loading book's. Does that sound like a death knell for the round ?

I dont know why this rounds slow walk into the history book's bothers me so much ; Ive never even fired one let alone hunted with one. I feel the same way about the .35 Whelen, tho ive at least shot the .35!

But it does bother me. Maybe the .404 Jeffrey represents a time in Africa I never want to see lost. Maybe it represents a kind of hunter, and PH, that I still want to hunt with. Maybe with one in my hands I'll be reminded that we werent "ALWAYS" able to hunt Africa reletively safely, and, there was once a time when you were a much easier critter to be part of some animals menu.

Maybe it just a damn good round and has the Lethality, inherent accuracy, and over all ability to do IT's! part, as long as you...........!

But I do know that I dont want to see the .404 Jeffrey fade into history, as so many outstanding Africa cartridges have done already. I know it will "live forever" in its case, or "live forever" in some form because of it. But I would like to know that if I ever get a hair to buy a DG rifle the .404 Jeffrey will be able to go on my "short list" of chambering's for it.

I hope someone here can give me some good new's about the rounds future......and thanx.......it would be a much emptier world without the .404 Jeffrey, and the stories of it "doing its part" when the chips were down, and when a hunter depended on his rifle/cartridge as much as he did on his skill and courage.....good hunting..........10

Rick, I am no authority on Africa, DGRs or the 404. Just a quick point or 2.

I believe you stated that there is a gap between the 375 and the 416.
The 404 is not in between these 2 calibers. It is slightly larger than the 416 around .42? Maybe that is one reason for the obvious unpopularity with the factory gunmakers regarding this chambering. Confusion.

I would have to second what you said about the lack of load information in what is now surely the most reloading data that has ever been available to the public. I have yet to see any printed load data, and the selection of readily available bullets is woefully lacking. (Maybe it is in the Barnes manual?)

I would also like to wholeheartedly agree with you that the round deserves better than it is getting. It would be a shame if the chambering were do disappear altogether.
But it seems as though it almost has already. There is no good way for the newer generation of hunters to be introduced to this round.
You will not find one on a gun stores rack.
You will not find ammo for it either.
You will not find a salesman who would recommend the caliber. They have probably never heard of it.
More's the pity.

I find the big old cartridges to be fasicinating. I wish they were more readily available.

Good topic Rick.

Bill

Gentlemen:
Your are correct, in saying that the 404 caliber is a very good choice. With modern loads it can easily equal the 416 Rem. and with its larger case capacity can exceed the rem. loading. At this point there is probably not enough good bullets out there to suit me. However, if ti was commericaly produced you would see a batch of new premimum bullet hit the market in no time.
The older loading used in africa was quite low as 2150 or there abouts was the standard during it hey-day. The bullet is slightly larger than the .416. the 404 is 423 dia. That makes little difference in the real world though.
What is it future?? I think the 416 has to much of a head start, and as it is so close in ballistics and performance, I doubt if any factory sees the percentage in turning one out.
George

[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 07-09-2001).]

When some decades ago there was a growing interest in returning the old .400 calibers for bolt action, there were the choice between the .416 Rigby and the .404 Jeffery. The Rigby won the race, because its superior data and reputation. 2150 versus 2400 f/s.
Factory loads sometimes available from RWS had to stick on the low pressures, because some old rifles were still in use.

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Thanx for the "heads up" fella's. I readily admit that my experience with this round is based on word of mouth and words in print. But what a history for this cartridge !

I can only try to imagine all the charges , and other dangerous situation's , that have been faced by hunters holding a rifle chambered in .404 Jeffery.

What a time that must have been ! What an Africa that must have been ! If I close my eye's and try hard enough I can almost put myself on that ship, in mid-Atlantic, with an 8 week safari ahead of me, and , of course, wipeing down my DG rifle, chambered in .404 Jeffrey, for the 999'th time.

Ahead of me lie's my first "Big-5", ahead of me lies a continent who's danger is only surpassed by its beauty, ahead of me lies one of the worlds last "real secret's", a last "real mystery", a last "real frontier". On the other end of the boat ride are the answer's to many of the question's Ive spent half a lifetime asking myself.

Ahead lies Africa !

What a time that must have been ! I can see the fraternity sitting on that deck, checking their rifles, "willing" the boat to move faster, and talking Africa.

Forgive my babbleing but Im a hopeless Romantic when the subject of "Old Africa" is raised, and the rifles and caliber's that are forever linked to the day's of the Old Safari, and the ivory trade.

Dont get me wrong I love the current hunting available in Africa, but, its history just makes the barbecued Impala steaks taste all the sweeter..........10

Hey 10Point, if you are located anywhere in the Pacific NW, come up and shoot one in a month or so, I will be chambering a barrel in 404 and putting it on a Brno 602. Good cartridge, needs more attention in the media...Regards, John (in Sunny Port Angeles, WA, USA)

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 07-10-2001).]

Rouge animals? Did he use the 404 to sort out their makeup?

I allways wonder when people site a lack of bullets as a reason not to go for a calibre. How many bullets do you need? Woodleigh make .423 softs and solids in a number of weights and Barnes likewise, as well as Hawk and RWS (I think). Sure extended range testing might be limited - I can't think of a better reason to choose it.

I think the 404 DESERVES more attention but I doubt it will ever receive it! It is a great caliber, etc etc but can do NOTHING that any 416 can't do just as well. You want nostalgia, buy a Rigby. You want practical performance, buy a Remington! I know, the 404 has both, and in a package not much larger than the Remington.
The case is an in-between, not able to be a drop in fit for the regular magnum actions and way too small for the Rigby sized ones. This hurts it somewhat, as does the lack of Nosler and a few other bullets readily available here in the states. It's a shame that Dakota or someone else hasn't picked it up but they haven't and until they do it will remain as it is, a caliber for the romantic nostalgic!

Compared to the .404 Jeffrey the Rigby saw very limited use in Africa. John I sure wish I could make it, you mean you actually get to see the sun up there ?..........10

10Point, yea, a rare period of sunny weather here on Washington's Olympic Peninsula is causing quite a stir. I am 21 miles across the salt water from Victoria, British Columbia, I can see Victoria from the driveway entrance. Where are you located, your profile has USA? I will post some 404 loads in a topic titled "Hobnobbing with the 404 Jeffery".

Some years ago I came to the conclusion that the ideal African 2-gun battery was a .318 WR and a .404 Jeff . . . with peep sights! One could do as well with a .425 WR but coming up with a rifle is hard and the ammunition is so rare that it makes the .404 seem like a .22 rimfire. In any event, I acquired the .318 am now in search of the .404. Unfortunately, it seems that everybody and this butt is of the same mind. Anything that comes up for sale in Africa, so I'm told, is immediately sucked up, sent to London, refurbished and marked up to prices beyond reality. So I will simply take my Erma M98 action and build a .404 up on it. Sure would be nice to have an original, though! Sniff!

Sarge

Sarge, I will be chambering a barrel for 404 Jeffery in a few weeks and instaling on a Brno 602. Hopefully in the not too distant future I will build one for myself on one of my 1909 actions. The 404 cries for a Mauser action! If there is damand as you say, and a shortage, maybe I should barrel up a few of the Mauser actions I have in the vault?????

John,
I think the demand is for "original" .404's in all the Olde Blightey big names. Whether or not there is a demand from all but "we the demented" for a new one, I can't say. You'd think from the comments on this and on the HuntAmerica boards that the world is foaming at the mouth to get hold of them but I fear that everyone who would want a new one is in our list of correstpondents. And most of us are eternally short of cash.

I don't think the 404 will ever go away, though it would be nice to see more rifles chambered in it. Everyone these days is flooring their 45-70s and what have you to make the ultimate brush-gun... they overlook the obvious... the 404. My 404 is and will be nothing but a original 404 in terms of ballistics. I load mine at 2150 and its such a easy gun to shoot. Though I have never shot a cape buffalo with mine, I have shot 3 elk and a moose at this velocity.

I think the plain and simple answer is component bullets. If one is looking for something unique, and with less options of component bullets, why not go up to 50 caliber? And if practicality plays any role in ones decision making, then the 416 is the hands down winner.

As a 404 user and fan, let me make some positive points...

It probably won't surpass the 416, but it will never go away as long as there are hunters that go to Africa....

We have been assured a liftime of brass as all the new rounds comming fourth are being made from 404 basic brass, so thats a plus...
Barnes, RWS, Norma, Woodleigh, Hawk,TCCI, and several more companies make bullets, Norma, RWS, HDS, Bell and a couple of other companies make brass..

As for powder there are just 2 worthwhile and one is head and shoulders over the other...RL-15 will get you 2400 FPS with 400 gr. bullets....IMR-4831 (the powder for the 404) will get you 2650 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet, the 416 Reminton won't do that, but it doesn't need too, as 2400 is just fine...but remember you can get 2700 out of the Rigby with the same bullet...The 404 has the advantage on paper of .423 as opposed to .416, some believe this to be an advantage and it is to a degree, but very little I suspect..like a 270 or 30-06..Factory ammo is available from RWS and another European Company or two..The clock in around 2350 with a 400 gr. bullet..and if you like a flat shooting round with whump then I suggest the 350 gr. Barnes-X..

I'll defend the 404 Jefferys, and use one for the rest of my life without any problems. and thats all thats important to me..After I'm gone one of my siblings will be shooting Buffalo with it for another lifetime I hope.....

If you think the 404 is moribound, you just ain't been around long enough to know anything, it was one of the few that survived the last 150 years and never has it gone out of production, the rest were deader than Obies a$$, cluding the 470 et. al.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Well since I started this thread, with the disclaimer that I didnt know much of what I was talking about, I spent the last few day's makeing call's to ammo-maker's, Die maker's, bullet maker's...ect It appears that the general, unscientific, consensus is that both side's of the coin are right.

The round HAS , at least sale's-wise, been eclipsed by other's, especially the .416's. Most telling of all, at least with RCBS, the sale's of new dies are currently very low, tho they werent able to tell me if this has been a current trend.

ALL agree that there are still plenty o rifle's chambered for it and a very hard core group of shooters that own them. ALL agree that anyone considering getting a rifle chambered in the .404 shouldnt be to concerned about componant availability.

What weight bullets are currently available for it ?........Who's Obie ?.......10

I'll never forget being in a government run West African safari concession that was shared by several PH's. I couldn't get the time of day from a French PH who was guiding other hunters, even though most Frenchmen will suffer an American who speaks their language. One evening I got out of the safari car right by the "cocktail" tent, and thirsty, I went inside to get a brew to take to my tent and "cut the dust" when I washed up. I had earlier asked a tracker to take my rifle to my tent, but he was occupied for a moment, so I leaned my Mauser .404 up against a post just outside the tent flap and asked the barman for a cold libation. Before the tracker could pick up the gun, the crusty old Frenchman leaned over, asked me the caliber and I struggled out the .404 which he didn't acknowledge (probably my accent), but when I said Jeffery he asked if he could see the gun. I nodded to the tracker who now had the rifle in hand and he attempted to hand the rifle to the PH, but concerned about the few toddies he'd consumed, I guess, he just let the tracker "present" it to him. Looking at the rifle, he smiled broadly, mumbled .404 in French, turned to me and offered to buy a drink. I left a cold one on the table, then took my rifle to my tent and came back, drank that one and a few more and made a friend for life. The old fart accepted the rifle before he would accept me. Says something for the international reputation for the caliber, I guess. BTW, he had a .450 N.E. 3 1/4" double Franchete (is that the right spelling) that pointed like a dream. When I got home, I did some research on the value of his rifle. I think the cost of his rifle would be a good down payment on an aircraft carrier.

The .404 will be around as long as folks dream.

[This message has been edited by judgeg (edited 07-12-2001).]

JudgeG, very good post. This is what the "Romantic" cartridges are all about. If and when I get to Africa, you can bet it will be a Mauser 404 Jeffery in the kit bag, take down of course along the lines of Newton's rifles.

That does it! I'm sending my Erma action off to be opened up this week. When the rifle will eventually get finished is a whole other story .

Yes, I'd love to go to Africa with a cartridge like the .404 J in the gun case.

How is it that a hunter can love a cartridge even tho he has never used it ? Is that when you know that you have it bad ?

Thats the funny thing about Africa, once you go your passion for ALL hunting is increased by a force of 100%. I think your passion for living is increased also. How many places can boast that kind of power ?

Ive had heard from many an experienced "Africa Hand" that the .404 Jeffrey belongs to that small group of rounds that "kill's better then any paper number's could possibly reflect". In that exclusive club are rounds that have found "some way" of holding on, and often find themselves haveing re-occurring consumer popularity from time to time.

In that club are several old "metric's", a .35 or two, a couple of old "varminter's" that are simply to good to die-off. Many of these kinds of rounds are "ex-military" and established to large a base of shooter's to ever "totally disappear" ; They also have filled way to many a meat freezer, as well as established themselves by being chambered in Mil-surp rifles that are cheap to buy, lethal on game, and easy/cheap to sporterize into a carryable game-getter.

The 30/40 Krag comes to mind with that statement. It was the right round, chambered in the right rifle, available cheaply at the right time, for it to "hit it big" in the civilian market after the Military dumped it in favor of the Springfield 30 cal-1906.

While the US military finally joined the rest of the world in accepting the wisdom of a "relatively" small/fast/boattail bullet load, hunter's were still "rightfully" hooked on larger, med fast, loads for their game. The 30/40 fit the bill, as did the 7X57, 8X57, 6X55, 7.62, .303 Brit...ect,..ect,..ect !

Newer powder's and bullets did nothing but help shooter's who wanted to stay with their old-time favorites , as did Hornady when they started the High-Vel "factory load" craze with their fine "Light Magnum" line.

I think I could live my life just fine with only two rifles, one loaded with a 6X55 Swede and the other, a DG package chambered in .404 Jefrey.

Of course this is only if I "MUST" have only two rifles. Thats a nightmare scenerio that has only one disaster recipe that is worse then IT is......good shooting........10

GIMME FIVE !!! LONG LIVE THE 404 JEFFERYS...MAKE MY DAY.

You guys have made me very happy!!

One could get the impression that I have a soft spot for that ole gun...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Alright, let us assume that one wanted (needed) a 404 in his battery. Let us further assume that said person was not an oil Baron, cattle Baron or any kind of Baron. Say he has 2 kids and a wife who doesn't see how another rifle could possibly fit into the vault.

I admit to being somewhat illiterate about which actions would be useful and appropriate to build a 404J. Is there a production rifle that lends itself to conversion to 404J?
Is there a manufacturer that produces 404J currently. Can any old smith build one, or can a good smith be recommended? (John R?)
What could you reasonably expect a finished rifle to cost? How would you prefer to have your 404 set up?

(Ray, thanks for the cartridges. Very nice!!)

[This message has been edited by Bill in NE (edited 07-13-2001).]

I'm starting with a M98 action. You can get essentially new 1909 Argentine's from Ellison's for $125. That will need to be opened up .1", maybe .11" at the rear. If you open the front you can mess up the feed. A .404 barrel ought to run, oh . . . $250 installed? This is not difficult gunsmithing. When you bed the action, use steelglass and make sure that there is at least 1/16" of bedding behind all recoil lugs. A drop stock in decent Bastogne walnut (for weight) should run $225 and then finishing, bluing, sights, etc. A "working class" quality rifle might go $2,000, depending on how much work you did yourself. I'd use a good Williams adjustable peep on it myself. It would cost less and dangerous game is only dangerous up around 50-75 yards so a scope isn't really needed. Don't forget to use a barrel swivel mount to protect your left hand (and because it looks much more cool that way). Of course you can always spend the cost of a small car, too, if you want to and can, but for those of us in the safari bugetary basement less is often more.

The costs of building a 404 on a Mauser action should not too much exceed the costs of any other magnum caliber. But why so "romantic" with the old calibers and their more or less restrictions? If you go on safari you should then use oxen wagon and salted horses for transportation, simple tents for accomodation, no beer and coke etc.

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Parker Hale makes a 404 Jefferys...but its pretty expensive I think....

Buy a used one out of the gunlist. I bought an original Mauser FN factory rifle in the Gunlist for $800 a couple of years ago, but sold it at a profit and a half....

You can rebarrel any 375 or 416 etc and have a little rail work done...or you can make one out of a Ruger No.1 very easily..

Remember it is shorter than a 375 H&H.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

FWIW, I received a newsletter recently from Dakota Arms announcing that they have created a .404 Dakota and are adding it to their proprietary cartridge line-up.

It's apparently an improved version of the original case. While that may diminish the appeal for some, it ought to be one hell of an effective cartridge.

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NRA and GOA Life Member
Do your part to protect our 2nd Amendment rights and preserve our hunting heritage!

OldSarge,

$250 for a 404 barrel INSTALLED??!! Where are you getting your barrels and who is installing them! Man that sounds cheap. Are they using old axle housings for barrels (grinning)?

Ray,
If Parker Hale still makes .404's I'll buy one is a heartbeat. I'm afraid that fine old company was bought up by some Americans and all they make now is muzzle-loaders. I've gone looking for .404's on the net and the lowest price I can find these days is over $2900. (Weep!) So I'll just have to build my own. Know any good vintage peep sights or where I can get a Swedish diopter from the post-WWI years?

Sarge

p.s. I think that should have been $250 PLUS installation. Sorry.

[This message has been edited by Oldsarge (edited 07-14-2001).]

What would be the feasability of getting a M70 safari express in .375 or .416 rem and sending it to someone like Mark Penrod to install a good .404 Jeffry barrel with barrel band swivel and banded front sight in addition to squaring up the action and doing all the other tricks to make it into a first class DGR. Would this be a good rifle to build a 404 jeff off of? I know you could have essentially the same thing by buying a .416 rem mag but it wouldn't be a .404 and I wouldn't want to hunt dangerous game without having it seriously gone over by a good gunsmith.

I dont know Boltman but I have been looking over some video clips I have and I will certainly say Ray has a gorgeous .404 bolt rifle.

It look's like a Mauser type and it has just a lovely piece of wood on it. I cant tell if it has a 22" tube or a 24" ; It kind of look's longer then standard however. He got the attention of a Buffalo tho, with a finishing shot or two.

Dakota could build me a nice lefty in .404, with a mauser action.I personaly like a 24" tube on my rifles, if I ended up needing a shorter one I'd just get another one put on............10

Last I knew McGowens chambered for .404. I dont have a currant price list, but it would likely be your cheapest barrel. I dont know if they are up to task on perfect feeding of a DGR or not?

Quote from John S:

quote:

---

It's a shame that Dakota or someone else hasn't picked it up but they haven't and until they do it will remain as it is, a caliber for the romantic nostalgic!

---

According to their website and the latest catalog from Dakota, the M76 "African" is offered in .404 Jeffrey. Barreled actions should be available.
http://www.dakotaarms.com/

Tony

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www.miltsparks.com
holster@ix.netcom.com

Rick,
That barrel is a Krieger, 27" long..The gun was an Oberndrof action built up single square bridge, Blackburn drop box and trigger as I recall..with a piece of properly laid out Exibition Turkish Walnut..Talley Rings with a peep and a Leupold 2.5 Alaskan (7/8" tube), Island irons sights.... I sold the gun to a gent, who had it appraised by some idiot, "gunsmith" who told him it wasn't turkish or Exibition, it wasn't a Obendorf action and got the client all excited...He called me 8 or 9 months after buying it. He had a 30 day inspection.. and wanted his money back..I told him to send me the gun and I would refund him his damn money and he said send the money and then he would send the gun, I said no and he started getting abusive..Negociations ended at that point..Last I heard he was going to sue me..My lawyer said he wouldn't..

It's a real shame because you are correct.it is truly a fine rifle by anybodys standards, including Reimer Johannsen, Jack Belk, Jim Brockman, Mark Cormwell (NEA) and a host of others at SCI, who complemented the rifle..It couldn't be replaced for $9,000 grand. and he paid a lot less than that for it...I hate selling a gun to someone that hasn't the knowledge to appreciate it..I suspect the truth is it kicked him too hard and he couldn't shoot it and he took it to some gun dealer who tried to screw him out of the gun....

I would really like to have it back, but thats not in the cards...

Its a wonderfull caliber and kills like the hammer of thor..

I'm shooting a 416 Rem now, and its just not the same, Maybe I'll start looking for an action, I sure have a nice stick stashed away for just such a project...and I have the stock pattern...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

When you hang a shingle out for the general public you can run into all sorts of thieve's and Liar's. I did a frame grab, and then a blow-up in Photoshop, and thats the lovliest piece of wood ive seen on a rifle in a long time.

Ray aint it a shame that you cant legally challenge a charcter like that to a dual ?, screw the lawyer's..........10

10 Point,
You got it, I'd have given my a$$ and half of Georgia for a shoot out at the corral south of town!!

The sad thing is the guy was mislead by a swindler or charlton and he didnpt check it out and he still doesn't appreciate what he really has, nor does he deserve to own it....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com