After watching Tracks Across Africa this weekend I wonder why PH's allow their clients to shoot elephant bulls in the head. They travel ten thousand miles and pay a huge price to see their PH sort out their shortcomings. If you shoot your bull in the head and he does not crumple its worse than a miss. Now your PH has to shoot him in the where ever he can. Rob Martin our first PH in 94 said Wally Johnson told him he never lost a bull shot in the shoulder but lost many that were head shot. Out of eight elephant I only shot two in the head and the result was dramatic but I will always take a shoulder shot first if its available.

Eles croak from heart/lung shots just like anything else. But there are a lot of reasons to brain an elephant. But of course you have to be able to pull it off. Well, most of the time anyway.

Alas, I think a major reason for head shooting is to make better videos. Not much excitement in shoulder shooting an elephant.

TT

Yes, I saw the same episode- the client shot, a brain shot attempt, there was some break in the filming, then some action, then Ivan was seemingly alone and hit the ele twice with his double. Then Ivan looked back, and seemed to see who was around- I may be completely wrong, but I didn't see the client.

I am sure with Ivan as the PH everything was done as it should have been, unfortunately the ele did not go down with the client's head shot.

I tend to agree. Most of the old time PHs and many of the current ones will only recommend a shoulder shot. I once asked Tony Sanchez Arno who has shot over a 1000 elephants what shot he would recommend and he pointed to the shoulder and told me that he would never recommend a brain shot to a client.

If you look at videos of brain shots for every one that works, there are atleast 3 or 4 that dont work. The PH shoots it in the shoulder as it turns to go after the "classic failed brain shot" and the elephant drops dead with that shot, so you decide what's good for you. I have shot one elephant todate, with a shoulder shot (it went 30 yards with 2 shots high in the shoulder right above the heart), the next one I shoot, hopefully in a month's time will also be a shoulder shot.

Shot my first elephant in July, Omay of Zimbabwe. Per very experienced PH, used frontal brain shot. Luck or skill, the 416 Barnes solid caused the elephant to collapse with no pause. He and his immediate colleagues recommend the brain shot. They say it is unambiguous; you either kill the elephant or quickly realize you missed the brain. PH flattered me, saying with a huge grin,"perfect brain shot". I say "I am blessed".

Gunny - I really think you answered your own question in your original post. You stated that shooting the 2 bulls in the head was dramatic, and I think that's what alot of guys are looking for. The drama and romance of dropping a 12,000lb bull with a single shot to the head from 25 yards is often too much to resist.

I have only shot 3 bull elephants, all of them were classic brain shots, including 1 frontal brain at 47 yards, and they all 3 dropped in their tracks! To me it was much more exciting that way, but as you mention, maybe not always the smartest thing to do. Plus, we are generally filming the hunts, and as Tsquare2 states, brain shots make better film.

As much as I like seeing a elephant properly shot in the brain, if I was a PH I too would recommend a heart/lung shot!

I agree if one is not taken by the romance of a brain shot it should be left for the experienced or in dire circumstance of a charge.

After my heart/lung shot the bull not knowing where the shot came from headed straight towards us, I took a frontal brain shot and missed the brain, my PH shot and also missed the brain; So much for experience! In the end I knew without a doubt that I had killed the bull.

When hunting Forest Elephant my outfitter has told me that the preferred shot is a heart/lung shot.

Aziz

If you watch Ivan, he grabs the cloth of his clients and takes them in... Close to the ele and my guess is 30 feet for the shot...
Head shots, you either know or dont understand where and how to shoot the frontal...
Aziz, I can understand why your Ph says a heart shot.. In the rain forest after the shot the ele will get swallowed up by the greenery really fast...

Mike

I took the heart shot on mine because I wasnt confident enough to do the brain shot. Never regretted it or gave it another thought.

And there are people who even miss the heart.
And people who miss the whole bloody elephant from a few feet

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And there are people who even miss the heart.
And people who miss the whole bloody elephant from a few feet

I can believe some miss at close range. A big bull elephant is an intimidating creature especially when other elephants are around. Personally, they scare the hell out of me.

I have seen a couple of elephants shot my others attempting the heart/lung shot. My observation was that they tended to shoot too high.

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And there are people who even miss the heart.
And people who miss the whole bloody elephant from a few feet

Don't laugh! I have to confess to missing a whole elephant at 18 feet. I'll have to relate that story sometime.

465H&H

I've only shot three elephants, but all were taken with side brain shots from a .416 Rigby. All dropped at the shot, but one did not exhibit classic brain shot behavior, and after a few seconds seemed to be struggling to get back up. A quick follow-up to the heart lung area (with him lying on his side) actually seemed to motivate him, and he did regain his feet. A second shot to the heart lung area as he took two hesitant steps, and then my fourth shot into the neck as he was quartering away dropped him for good. It gave me a good appreciation for what can happen when the brain shot is not immediately fatal. Even though I'm sure either of the heart lung shots would have been sufficient in the end, I was happpy to keep shooting until he was down for good.

I am particluarly opposed to the heart lung shot as the first shot, because almost all PH's feel the need to back up this shot. With no visible indication if the shot is properly placed, the PH is almost obligated to shoot. A brain shot presents no such issue. Having flubbed the one brain shot mentioned above, I can now understand how it does happen, even though it really shouldn't! Using a sufficient caliber to at least stun the elephant, gave me time to finish the job on my own. (My initial shot was just an inch or so high.) I want to be the one shooting my elephants, so I opt for the brain shot as my preferred first shot.

Bill

When I wrote about a brain shot I was just referring to a frontal brain shot. A side brain shot is easier with good land marks and there is less chance of anything going wrong as the point of aim does not change with the position of the head.

The problem is that most of the time as you approach an elephant and get in close they will sense you and turn to face you and you are only left with a frontal brain shot. I am not against it on the contrary I wish I was good enough to say I could hit the brain every time on a frontal brain shot, but I am not and am under no illusion.

On a heart/lung shot I am confident enough to tell my PH to only back me up if the animal charges.



Aziz

I killed my first elephant last month in Maasailand. My PH wanted a heart/lung shot for two reasons. First, he believes that some situations (lots of brush and/or lots of other elephants) only allow for one good shot, and that the shoulder shot was a lot more certain than the brain shot. Second, when shooting a bull out of a big group (mine was taken out of a herd of 30+ bulls) he wanted the target elephant to move away after the shot so the rest of the herd didn't stand around and potentially cause trouble.

My bull made it 50-60 yards. His crew continued without him and gave us no problems.

Last year while taking a PAC bull we got very close and as I was about to take a broadside shoulder shot the elephant spun and came straight for us. He stopped at ten yards with ears out and trunk up I realized at that point That the angle was very steep and opted for a frontal chest shot which caused him to sit down allowing for another shot to the shoulder. This all happened so fast that there was no time for second guessing. It seems that only the first shot can be figured out after that its shoot til the guns empty. Would you consider the elephant yours if you blew the brain shot and your PH shoots it in the shoulder? You will rarely recover an elephant that received a poorly placed head shot. You will , however receive the bill for the trophy fee every time!

I'm no expert but should I ever make it to Africa, I just pray my PH is as good a shot as Ivan Carter is.

It sounds like one should not go into it with a preconceived notion about what shot you are going to take, but be prepared to be fluid and flexible.

On the contrary if you get within 20 yards of an elephant meaning to do it harm you better have a plan. Now at this point a backup plan might also be advisable.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And there are people who even miss the heart.
And people who miss the whole bloody elephant from a few feet

I am the first to admit I have made a few of those shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And there are people who even miss the heart.
And people who miss the whole bloody elephant from a few feet

I am the first to admit I have made a few of those shots.

No you are second! See above.

465H&H

Isn't it amazing that all rational thought goes out the window when you get within 25 yards.

Ah yes I see I am not the first. When you are trying to run and shoot at the same time it is amazing how far off things can be at times. I actually didnt mean first as in literally but that is ok. We can both laugh about it so everything is still good.
Gunny, You are so right. The whole perspective changes for sure.

No one believes me when I tell them I missed a hippy at 50 yards

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
No one believes me when I tell them I missed a hippy at 50 yards

It happens Saeed. I just missed this one at about 40 yards. Luckily the PH got a photo just before it bolted.......
.........



I'm planning to go back to Woodstock for another attempt soon.......

I watched the episode in question and loved it. I've never hunted elephant, so my opinion in this matter probably counts for squat, but had I been the client at the end of that hunt, I would have had a very hard time calling that elephant mine. When Ivan congratulated the hunter on his great bull, I felt let down. At least he could have called it "our" bull. In my eyes, it was actually Ivan's bull. I understand it works that way and it's one of the chances you take when you sign on for hunting big dangerous animals, but I would have been very disappointed in myself.

An elephant belongs to the one who has to pay for it!

465H&H

I read a/b the upcoming show here on AR and looked forward to it w/ great anticipation. While Ivan Carter surely proved he knows ele, is an excellent PH w/ great testicular fortitude, I personally would have a very difficult time claiming that ele if it were me. When Ivan did his majic, the client was not even in the picture frame. It appears Ivan was looking to see where the client had gone. When it was over it really seemed that the client was not involved in killing this ele.
I'm NOT laying any blame on Ivan, he merely did his job of protecting his client AND staying alive!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
An elephant belongs to the one who has to pay for it!

Possession of the trophy and ownership of the hunt are, in my opinion, two different things. In the sitatuation on "Tracks," the hunter certainly ended up possessing the trophy, but (again IMO) didn't fully own the hunt. At least I wouldn't have felt like I got all I could have. Like I said, I wouldn't have been miffed at Ivan, just disappointed in myself. Of course, I've had that happen without a PH to "sort it out."

A lot of these taped elephant or buffalo hunts show the same thing or worse.

You see the same with brown bear in Alaska.

When I shot my Polar Bear my PH had not even bothered to take his rifle out of his case. A very nice 22-250 by the way, for you gun fans. Absolutely deadly on seals.

This Elephant/Buffalo type of "Hunter" and "Hunting" interests me not.

22-250? Hell, why bother?

I think I would be happy with the ele that my PH and I killed. I would also be happy that none of us got killed as seems to happen at times. That would have really made me feel bad to know that I botched a shot and my PH got turned into mush because of it, after all is'nt it the memories that stay with us after all the hides have gotten dusty and gone away?

Take a heart/lung shot and everyone can go home happy. If you miss the heart/lung shot you don’t deserve the Elephant anyways.

Even if the Ph backs you up with a hip or spine shot, you will know that the killing shot was yours.


Aziz

I've only shot one tuskless but it was shot through the heart with the right and left from my 470.

If you hunt enough elephants, sooner or later your PH will have to back you up. It is just part of the game.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
If you hunt enough elephants, sooner or later your PH will have to back you up. It is just part of the game.

465H&H

So true. And if you hunt elephants enough you will end up backing up the PH too!

A lung shot is too anticlimatic for my taste. I prefer a brain shot and a frontal at theat. Approach close, and keep approaching until the elephant wheels to face you...


JPK

I've shot one elephant.

I flubed the side brain shot. Dean Kendal pumped two rounds into it's shoulder and I swatted it with the second barrel in the brain.

If Dean hadn't backed me up I would have lost elephant. So I'd say that Dean killed my one and only elephant but I do hope to remedy that one day.

Oh and by the way I fully support Deans decision to shoot he did what had to be done. I, me and me only screwed up my first shot. I wish that I'd have seen Buzzes video before my first attempt I hit right right where I was aiming but I really didn't know where to shoot. I do know!