I was watching TAA this AM and saw what appeared to be a very experienced hunter have multiple misfires while hunting Jumbo. His first shot went fine and dropped the cow in her tracks. The hunter then cycled another round and attempted a second shot as she attempted to stand. He pulled the trigger and nothing happened. Lifting the bolt handle and then pushing it back down allowed the gun to fire the second shot. This was followed by a third shot where the same process happened. It appears the trigger sear was not resetting properly...a problem I have seen on several M-700’s that have had the trigger messed with. This rifle appeared to be a Dakota.

You could see the disgust on the hunter face after the whole process ended. No doubt things were edited at the end because we never saw any explanation for the events. On the next hunt, the client used another rifle to take a respectable buffalo. I would love to know the whole story and what caused the problems with the client’s rifle.

I am fortunate to have several good friends who work as PH’s in Africa, and also know a few guides in Alaska. I am amazed at how often things like this happen in the field. I have never had any major problems on my hunts. I like to think I find them before I leave. I cycle all my hunting ammunition through my rifles prior to a hunt….dangerous game or not. If I have the slightest problem the rifle or ammo is fixed…or left home. Most of the issues I have come across are feed related and easily fixed with a little file work, or adjusting the reloading dies.

I am curious what others do to prepare for a hunt and how many people have witnessed issues in the field. I am aware that things sometimes break…like a scope or even a stock. What I find puzzling is when a hunter shows up in the field with obvious rifle problems and thinks that it will not impact his safety or the success of the hunt.

I noticed that too. I have never hunter dangerous game, so I won't comment further.

Roscoe,
Things happen all of the time in the field, most of the problems develop most of the time because guys don't shoot their rifles and ammo combinations enough to find the bugs that might be waiting to bite them. Yes, there is inferior quality actions and rifles out there that will go wrong at the wrong time a lot of times.

Dirk

i know older model Rugers( and possibly others) would do this if you short stroked a round. if you pulled the bolt back but not all the way to the stops, it would eject the spent round and pick and chamber the next, but the firing pin wouldn't cock. it was easy to do if you were rushing, excited and unfamiliar with the exact mechanics of the action. friend of mine had this happen after his first shot staggered a moose and he short stroked the next 2 rounds. i had to finish off the animal before he waded into a pond.

The good thing about TAA is they usually show the problems rather than edit them out. Shit does happen, as the old saw goes "The best layed plans of mice and men go astray". We don't live or hunt in a perfect world. Hell Obama was nominated.

I shoot my rifle extensively prior to a hunt. I fired around 800 rounds through my Mod 70 .375 and became intimately familiar with it. Then, prior to departure, I had it thoroughly checked out by my gunsmith to insure that I hadn't worn anything out during practice.

I cycled every round through that rifle that I took on my hunt. That's being thorough and I recommend these procedures to anyone going on a DG hunt.

Hasn't happened to me while hunting game, but did happen with an extremely light-triggered varmint rifle.
Been on a few hunts where others have had their triggers worked on by a gunsmith and they fail to hold the sear. I do a lot of trigger adjustments for friends and a gunsmith in town. There has to be a certain amount of sear engagement to ensure safety and workability. I test each trigger by hitting the top, bottom, and sides of the trigger with a rawhide mallet. If it survives this, it should (knock on wood and never say never) be appropriate.

Noticed the same thing! I also noticed that on the same ele stalk whoever the client was changed clothes and rifles! Shorts then pants / synethic stock then back to wood.

quote:

I test each trigger by hitting the top, bottom, and sides of the trigger with a rawhide mallet. If it survives this, it should (knock on wood and never say never) be appropriate.

And I cock em then slam the but on the floor HARD.
Guys freek out but if I'm out with them I don't want anything going bang unexpectedly.

Good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by The Specialist:

quote:

I test each trigger by hitting the top, bottom, and sides of the trigger with a rawhide mallet. If it survives this, it should (knock on wood and never say never) be appropriate.

And I cock em then slam the but on the floor HARD.
Guys freek out but if I'm out with them I don't want anything going bang unexpectedly.

X3.

Lots of fellows tell you about their "two pound" triggers. That makes my skin go cold. Most triggers won't take the butt whack at much less than three pounds in my experience.

(Which is plenty light enough if crisp and clean, imo.)

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Roscoe,
Things happen all of the time in the field, most of the problems develop most of the time because guys don't shoot their rifles and ammo combinations enough to find the bugs that might be waiting to bite them. Yes, there is inferior quality actions and rifles out there that will go wrong at the wrong time a lot of times.

Dirk

I agree and I believe it happens more often with big bores and in situations where your life could be on the line.

While in Zimbabwe on a buffalo hunt, I had the pleasure to share a camp with a great fellow from CA. He had a beautiful 510 Gibbs made by a well known custom gun maker on a Springfield action. I was with him on his buffalo hunt when he fired the first shot. He hit the buffalo low in the neck and the bull started to run away. We were waiting for him to follow up with a second shot...which never came. Come to find out, this rifle would not eject the spent brass with the full power loads he was hunting with. The fella knew there was a problem with his rifle because on the test range he fired reduced loads....which ejected fine. He thought one shot was all he would need with this large bore rifle and didn't think having a single shot would be an issue.

On another hunt in Zim...a different client...this one was an ass from France...showed up with a 416 Rigby. When we asked him to go to the practice range to make sure his rifle was shooting correctly he refused to go...said it was fine. In the field he blew several shots on buffalo at close range. Come to find out, he had never even shot the rifle he brought to camp. When asked why his response was that it kicked to hard so he had his friend zero the scope for him.

I believe my PH could write a book about all the things he has seen. Not including the funny stuff...like the guy who opend up his gun case in JNB to get a gun permit only to find that he left the bolt at home on his cleaning bench!

R

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by The Specialist:

quote:

I test each trigger by hitting the top, bottom, and sides of the trigger with a rawhide mallet. If it survives this, it should (knock on wood and never say never) be appropriate.

And I cock em then slam the but on the floor HARD.
Guys freek out but if I'm out with them I don't want anything going bang unexpectedly.

X3.

Lots of fellows tell you about their "two pound" triggers. That makes my skin go cold. Most triggers won't take the butt whack at much less than three pounds in my experience.

(Which is plenty light enough if crisp and clean, imo.)

JPK

All my rifles are set to break at just over two pounds, and and used by many different hunters.

We have had no problems whatsoever.

When I first built these rifles, I put an after market trigger on one of them, and had exactly the sam problem as mentioned here.

I replaced that trigger by the original factory issue, and had no more problems.

Nothing wrong with "just over 2lbs" if you test them and they hold. Many or most don't test them. And so the later problems.

JPK

While we're on the topic of triggers, if you hand a fellow a rifle with a clean and crisp five lb trigger and rifle with a gritty three lb trigger, most will think the heavier but clean and crisp trigger is the lighter and the easier to shoot.

Also I think that not all that many "two pound" triggers were tested with weights. And weights are the only truly accurate method of testing.

JPK

usually this problem occurs when the sear engagement is insufficient. sear engagement has nothing to do with weight of pull, but does length of pull. Hence in an attempt to achieve a "crisp" trigger the sear engagement gets set to fine.

I am the unhappy guy in the TAA episode with the Dakota Safari in 416 Rem that did not always fire on que. I had no problem with the rifle while practicing before the hunt or while checking the zero in camp. I used ammo loaded by Superior for all of the pre-trip range work the same lot was in the rifle that took the elephant. And as others have shared I cycle all of the ammo through the action before the trip and rotate ammo that has be in the magazine after firing the rifle. I have owned the rifle for several years and it has taken buffalo in Tanzania without incident.
Before I went to Zim on this hunt I sent the rifle to Dakota to have a mercury recoil reducer installed. The factory called me and said that they had an upgrade available for the safety - which I had installed. Everything was fine until the follow up shot with that ele 10 yards away and her upset friends all around us. You are right - I was not happy and I was slow to rise after the finishing heart shot because I had a knot in my stomach. I put the Dakota away and took a bull ele (55/52#), another cow, the buff, and a zebra with my 375 built by Empire.
As an aside my SAA lost my gear and I was in borrowed cloths for several days - it was a good thing that my PH, Brent Leesmay, and I are about the same size.
Everyone I met while in camp was just great and I can recommend Brent Leesmay, Ivan Carter, and Mark Valaro as PH's, and Dave Fulson, Tim Danklef, and Tamela Moss were great people to work with in the back office.
I have booked with Chifuti again for 2009 and Brent will be my PH.

In all my years of shooting, and hunting,(66 yrs), I've had very few misshaps with rifle's not working properly. That being said things happen, and usually when you least expect it!

There is one thing that nobody can check for, and that is the occasional dud round. after checking the rifle to see that it is not to blame, I turn to the ammo it's self. The only way to find that round is to try to fire it, and what is gained by that is the round can be discarded, or broken down to find the cause. In this vein, if one of these is found on the range, I will not take any of that ammo on Safari, because the usual cause, in a dependable rifle, is bad primers! I will usually go ahead and shoot the rest of this ammo on the range, and load some more for the safari, useing a new box of primers. I had this happen on a batch I loaded for practice, finding three round that were duds. After thinking about it, I realized I had run dry on one box of primers, and had use two or three out of an old box from my shelf. Since these were the last three I loaded,if I had taken them on safari,being all in the same end of the box, they may have been all in the magazine of my rifle at the same time! That wouldn't have been nice if they had been the three follow-up shots from a missplaced shot from my rifle which only holds three down, and one in the spout!

As has already been mentioned, one should chamber every round and run them through the action from a full magazine, to check feeding.
For you double rifle guys, every round needs to be loaded in each barrel, and the rifle closed, then turn the round in both barrel 180 degs and close again, especially if the brass has been loaded before! Some times a round will load easily in one chamber, but be tight to close in the other chamber, and the time to find this isn't when you are looking at a chargeing lion!

Sometimes you have things happen that nobody can predict, like the time I had a hammer spurr braek off the left hammer of a double rifle when I tried to cock it, after cocking the right barrel. This happened on a muledeer hunt in New Mexico, but it could have as easily happened in Africa, in a sitcky moment. The rifle was over 90 yrs old, and the steel just crystalized and broke off. Noone could have predicted that happening! I also had a Mod 700 22-250 bull barrel for shooting P-dags. when I chambered a round in the barrel, got into shooting position, I slid the safety forward, and the rifle fired! Luckily the rifle was pointed at the P-dog town and not a my jeep, or something else! I found that rifle would do that often, and required a new Canjar trigger/safety! That year I know of several other 700 that did the same thing!

I'm a real believer in trying to head off potentual misshaps before they are the only thing between me, and a pissed off Buffalo, that I just poked a big hole in, and didn't put him down!

quote:

Originally posted by ggorney:
I am the unhappy guy in the TAA episode with the Dakota Safari in 416 Rem that did not always fire on que. I had no problem with the rifle while practicing before the hunt or while checking the zero in camp. I used ammo loaded by Superior for all of the pre-trip range work the same lot was in the rifle that took the elephant. And as others have shared I cycle all of the ammo through the action before the trip and rotate ammo that has be in the magazine after firing the rifle. I have owned the rifle for several years and it has taken buffalo in Tanzania without incident.
Before I went to Zim on this hunt I sent the rifle to Dakota to have a mercury recoil reducer installed. The factory called me and said that they had an upgrade available for the safety - which I had installed. Everything was fine until the follow up shot with that ele 10 yards away and her upset friends all around us. You are right - I was not happy and I was slow to rise after the finishing heart shot because I had a knot in my stomach. I put the Dakota away and took a bull ele (55/52#), another cow, the buff, and a zebra with my 375 built by Empire.
As an aside my SAA lost my gear and I was in borrowed cloths for several days - it was a good thing that my PH, Brent Leesmay, and I are about the same size.
Everyone I met while in camp was just great and I can recommend Brent Leesmay, Ivan Carter, and Mark Valaro as PH's, and Dave Fulson, Tim Danklef, and Tamela Moss were great people to work with in the back office.
I have booked with Chifuti again for 2009 and Brent will be my PH.

So, any info on what the cause of the problem was? Was it related to the safety "upgrade"?

At 55lbs that was a nice bull! Were you in Chewore South?

JPK

To be honest I have not done anything with it other than to talk with a local gunsmith who would really like to look at the rifle. I had planned to send it back to Dakota with a video clip and an 'unhappy' owner note.
Because my confidence has been shaken I decided to replace the Dakota with a doulbe rifle in 470 NE. I ended up buying a new Heym PH and I am focusing on getting good with my new 'heavy gun.
We were in Chewore South - first hunter in camp for 2008 - Jim Hall joined a few days later.
There are pics of the bull on Chifuti's website - they are pics 7-9 in the ele section.

Regarding Macd37's statement about no method of checking ammo: Weigh each round to assure it contains the correct amount of powder. This I learned from an account of a US shooting team in UK, in a match where issue ammo was used. They improved their scores by weight sorting. I do it for reliability.

On misfires/duds: If the bolt handle is partly raised when the trigger is pulled, the bolt timing is affected and energy is consumed to rotate the bolt. The result can be a light firing pin strike. That is a good reason to carry M70 and similar rifles with the safety in full on position, ie all the way back.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:
He pulled the trigger and nothing happened. Lifting the bolt handle and then pushing it back down allowed the gun to fire the second shot. This was followed by a third shot where the same process happened.

The fact that the hunter simply lifted the bolt handle and pushed it back down suggests to me that this is a problem that he has had with this rifle before, and he knew how to rectify it.

Think about it - if you were in the middle of a pucker situation, and your rifle failed to fire, wouldn't your natural inclination be that you either had a misfire, or the gun had failed to pick up the next round? In either situation the correct response would be to cycle the bolt fully and pick up a new cartridge. When there's a possibility that Jumbo is going to turn me into raspberry jam, I'm not going to trust myself to a round that has already misfired once!

If he did have previous problems with this rifle and/or loads (hard primers), then the fault lies completely with the hunter for bringing a known malfunctioning rifle/ammo on a DG hunt.

Oops, posted before getting to the end of the thread and seeing ggorney's posts.

I still have to ask the question, though. Why would you simply lift the bolt handle and not cycle another round? To me, a misfire is a misfire, and while normal range procedure requires pointing the rifle in a safe direction in case it's a hang-fire, a situation like this demands that you get rid of the offending round and get a fresh one in.

quote:

Originally posted by ggorney:
To be honest I have not done anything with it other than to talk with a local gunsmith who would really like to look at the rifle. I had planned to send it back to Dakota with a video clip and an 'unhappy' owner note.
Because my confidence has been shaken I decided to replace the Dakota with a doulbe rifle in 470 NE. I ended up buying a new Heym PH and I am focusing on getting good with my new 'heavy gun.
We were in Chewore South - first hunter in camp for 2008 - Jim Hall joined a few days later.
There are pics of the bull on Chifuti's website - they are pics 7-9 in the ele section.

I'll take a look at Chifuti's website. I have hunted Chewore South twice for a combined thirty four days or so. It is a wonderful place to hunt. I'll be returning there Oct 1 to hunt three tuskless.

It seems that you have more elephants in your future. I think you will love your double rifle. For up close elephants, nothing else is in the same league, imo.

Learning two triggers and quick reloading can be accelerated by using a SxS two trigger shotgun.

JPK

quote:

Posted 02 September 2008 21:50 Hide Post
To be honest I have not done anything with it other than to talk with a local gunsmith who would really like to look at the rifle. I had planned to send it back to Dakota with a video clip and an 'unhappy' owner note.
Because my confidence has been shaken I decided to replace the Dakota with a doulbe rifle in 470 NE. I ended up buying a new Heym PH and I am focusing on getting good with my new 'heavy gun.

good idea everybody needs a double

Or two.

Enjoy your new DR!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
Regarding Macd37's statement about no method of checking ammo: Weigh each round to assure it contains the correct amount of powder. This I learned from an account of a US shooting team in UK, in a match where issue ammo was used. They improved their scores by weight sorting. I do it for reliability.
When I On misfires/duds: If the bolt handle is partly raised when the trigger is pulled, the bolt timing is affected and energy is consumed to rotate the bolt. The result can be a light firing pin strike. That is a good reason to carry M70 and similar rifles with the safety in full on position, ie all the way back.

That only works if you have matched brass for weight to start with!It certainly wouldn't be much of an indicator with ammo that was loaded at a munitions plant! You can buy the best brass in the world and in 100 rounds 1/3 will be light, 1/3 will be medium, and 1/3 will be heavy in weight. The only way the weighing of the loaded rounds would indicate anything is if a round had not been charged at all, and wouldn't tell you if the primer was live or not!

When I buy my new brass I always sort it by weight, and every time the result will be the same, with three weights, no matter the brand!

The same charge in light brass will not shoot the same as that same load in heavy brass, because the heavier the brass the less powdwer capacity inside, because the outside is the same for all brass sized in the same die! What the Shooting team was doing was not checking the proper amount of powder, but selecting all their ammo to weight the same, so it would shoot closer to the same velocity, for every round, shrinking groups on target!

Mac,

Maybe, but weighing the ammo will catch the big FU's that cause the big problems.

JPK

You need to be very familiar with your rifle before you hunt dangerous game, unfortunately most are not and thats a fact...Many claim to never have feeding problems, then have them because they didn't abuse the rifle nor did they shoot it enough to know.