Here's a couple of instances --- what do you think is the responsibility of a booking agent?

#1) A safari company has a lease (legal) on an area and has been given a quota of 3 lions for the year. The agent "sells" a safari for a lion hunt to 3 different clients... Bob is the first one to book but will actually be hunting last. Charles is the 2nd one to book and will be hunting first while Don buys the last hunt and will be the 2nd hunter to go. Now what happens if the Parks Dept changes it's mind and drop the quota from 3 to only 2 lions -- who gets to actually hunt and take a lion and who doesn't?

I would think the first two hunters who booked and not the first two to actually hunt should be the ones....but supposed the safari company gets concerned they may not fill their quota and actually allow the first two hunters to actually kill a lion thus leaving the 3rd client who actually booked first "high and dry". He booked his hunt first but can't hunt lion.

Is it the fault of the booking agent? Even if the client gets all of his money back and doesn't make the trip he's lost a trip he's planned and spent a lot of time setting up.

Now suppose you were the client who hunted second but were the last to book -- what would your feelings be and what would be your feelings?

#2) You book a hunt thru a booking agent and the contract specifies a certain PH for you hunt. When you get there for whatever reason, the safari company substitutes a qualified but different PH for your hunt --- what do you do? And who do you blame?

#3) You book a hunt thru a booking agent for a specific area and when you get there the safari company takes you to a different area that may be better or may not --- who do you blame?

#4) You book a hunt and the contract specifies you will have exclusive use of the camp but becasue of problems the safari company has someone else in camp with you for some period of time during your hunt --- who's to blame and what do you do?

What do you think the booking agent's responsibility to you should be in each case?

Good questions.

I will take a run at it.

#1. The first two hunters to book gets the two Lions. The third hunter gets a refund or first choice of dates for next year.

....but supposed the safari company gets concerned they may not fill their quota and actually allow the first two hunters to actually kill a lion thus leaving the 3rd client who actually booked first "high and dry". He booked his hunt first but can't hunt lion.


Don't work with a safari company who overbooks their quota. That is the plain and simple explination.

#2. There are times to be reasonable and understand that things can go wrong, and times to demand that an agreement is kept. The situation will dictate which.

#3. I would be upset if I were the hunter. Another reason to book with an operation who owns the hunting rights to the concession they hunt. It removes almost all likelyhood of this possibility.

#4. See #2.

The bottom line is that there are times to get upset about agreements not being kept. There are times to understand that there are situations out of the controll of the agent and the operator. I have never been on a hunt where nothing went wrong. It is going to happen and the hunter has to be prepared to deal with setbacks.

There is a difference between a setback and intentionally and knowingly breaking an agreement.

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Originally posted by DB Bill:

#1) Now what happens if the Parks Dept changes it's mind and drop the quota from 3 to only 2 lions -- who gets to actually hunt and take a lion and who doesn't?

First come, first served.

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#2) You book a hunt thru a booking agent and the contract specifies a certain PH for you hunt. When you get there for whatever reason, the safari company substitutes a qualified but different PH for your hunt --- what do you do? And who do you blame?

PH's are people too and get sick/injured, have personal emergencies, etc.

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#3) You book a hunt thru a booking agent for a specific area and when you get there the safari company takes you to a different area that may be better or may not --- who do you blame?

Unacceptable. This is the bait and switch technique that Wayne Wagner Safaris (RSA) was accused of on this forum (and the accusation was convincingly proven too). The client paid a handsome premium to hunt buffalo in an area that supposedly produces 42-44" buff every year. The client contracted to pay a premium specifically for a hunt in that area for buff, with one antelope thrown in. And the hunt was to be with Wayne as PH. Client shows up at the JoBerg airport and there is a different PH, who drives the client to a different concession where the buff are 38" max. And the PH can only hunt with the client for 3 days. Then the client is forced to switch to a plains game area. This was all written up in the Hunt Report.

If there is to be a change of concession, the safari co should get the client's consent in advance. If facts on the ground change during the safari, it's relatively simple to honestly tell the client what happened and ask how he would like to handle it. Clients are people too and understand that there can be screw ups, so most clients will be understanding and go with the flow.

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
Here's a couple of instances --- what do you think is the responsibility of a booking agent?

#1) A safari company has a lease (legal) on an area and has been given a quota of 3 lions for the year. The agent "sells" a safari for a lion hunt to 3 different clients... Bob is the first one to book but will actually be hunting last. Charles is the 2nd one to book and will be hunting first while Don buys the last hunt and will be the 2nd hunter to go. Now what happens if the Parks Dept changes it's mind and drop the quota from 3 to only 2 lions -- who gets to actually hunt and take a lion and who doesn't?

I would think the first two hunters who booked and not the first two to actually hunt should be the ones....but supposed the safari company gets concerned they may not fill their quota and actually allow the first two hunters to actually kill a lion thus leaving the 3rd client who actually booked first "high and dry". He booked his hunt first but can't hunt lion.

I agree with you. The first two to book should have the right of first refusal. The third hunter should receive a full refund, plus priority for the following season should he desire.

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Is it the fault of the booking agent? Even if the client gets all of his money back and doesn't make the trip he's lost a trip he's planned and spent a lot of time setting up.

In this case, the booking agent is blameless. I doubt anyone could foresee that the quota would be reduced by government decree.

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Now suppose you were the client who hunted second but were the last to book -- what would your feelings be and what would be your feelings?

I would be displeased and disappointed, but as long as the quota reduction is verifiable, I'd chalk it up to 'A-W-A'. If I HAD to take a safari that year, I'd ask the booking agent to see what he could do for me (cancellation, another reputable outfitter, etc.).

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#2) You book a hunt thru a booking agent and the contract specifies a certain PH for you hunt. When you get there for whatever reason, the safari company substitutes a qualified but different PH for your hunt --- what do you do? And who do you blame?

This happened to me, twice. The first time, I was told the PH was 'down with malaria', and I was assigned an indigenous PH who ended up screwing my safari up BIG TIME. I suspect that the next client into that camp had insisted on the PH I wanted as a condition of his booking, and the outfitter assigned him away.

Fortunately, the booking agent saved the day once I notified him of the extreme malfeasance of the indigenous PH, who no longer works for this outfitter); he intervened on my behalf, and the outfitter comped me for 10 of the 14 days on another hunt).
The second time (with the same outfitter), the PH was actually down with malaria, but was able to join me on the second day of my safari. Still, it soured me greatly for several days.

In this case, if the PH was the major reason to book with the operator (which it was), and the operator knew prior to my departure that the PH was unavailable (which he did), I should have been given the option to postpone the hunt (which I wasn't).

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#3) You book a hunt thru a booking agent for a specific area and when you get there the safari company takes you to a different area that may be better or may not --- who do you blame?

This also happened to me (have you sensed a pattern, yet? ). I was booked to hunt in the Moyowosi, but when I arrived in Tanzania, I was informed that I'd hunt in the Muhesi due to the rains arriving in the Moyowosi. I didn't like that at all, and informed the outfitter forthwith, but they have you over a barrel by the time you get 'in-country'. I only shot two animals on that trip, the buff you see in my signature, and a Lichtenstein's hartebeest. The area was not very good, the food was awful, and the water gave me dysentery.

In this case, there was no booking agent, but I don't know what a booking agent could have done. The outfitter, until the very day I departed the States, assured me that we'd hunt the Moyowosi. IF the rains had truly arrived, there wasn't much anyone could have done.

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#4) You book a hunt and the contract specifies you will have exclusive use of the camp but becasue of problems the safari company has someone else in camp with you for some period of time during your hunt --- who's to blame and what do you do?

In this case, although the circumstances may have been beyond the operator's control, he breached the terms of the contract between you. Some attempt at accommodation should be made.

George

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In this case, if the PH was the major reason to book with the operator (which it was), and the operator knew prior to my departure that the PH was unavailable (which he did), I should have been given the option to postpone the hunt (which I wasn't).

I agree with this completely. As a client, we want to control as many variables as possible because there are so many other variables that cannot be controlled. As far as I am concerned, the PH is one of the major influences on the quality of a hunt. Put me in a good area with a good PH that is easy to get along with, and I'll enjoy myself regardless of the trophies I take, or how the weather turns out, etc, etc.

If I specify a PH and its agreed to in a contract, and the outfitter or agent knows that PH won't be there and I don't find out til I get there...I would be very upset. Alternative arrangements (eg. a specific substitute PH agreed to in advance, or postponement of hunt until original PH is available, etc) must be made and agreed to beforehand unless it is absolutely not possible (eg. PH trampled by elephant on previous hunt, down sick with Malaria, etc).

Cheers,
Canuck

Just a general question...lets say an American hunter books a hunt through an American Booking Agent for a hunt somewhere in Africa.

After the intial discussions I assume some sort of "confirmation" or formal contract is provided??

I would expect this to include the important details like: when, where, who the hunt is with, who the PH is, what animals are to be taken, costs broken down into daily rate trophy fee's ect, and any other important details like exclusive use of the camp ect..

If any of these conditions are not met, surely the client can (if negoigations fail) take the booking agent to court even if the problems were at the African end and down to the outfitter/ph?

I would assume its up to the booking agent to make things good with Client and for him to then recoup any costs from the Outfitter/PH in Africa? Or does the booking agent simply side step all that and have the clients do any paperwork/contracts direct with the outfitter/ph?

Regards,

Pete

Pete...as I recall, and I don't have an old contract around, there is language in the contract that basically holds the booking agent harmless for these kinds of problems and states that resolution is between you and the company.

I would, as a matter of course, contact the booking agent some time before I left to check on how things are going to check on any potential problems as he/she should be in regular contact with the various companies he is representing.

However, even though I did this on my 1st safari and even called and exchanged several e-mails with the safari company, when I arrived in Zimbabwe I was handed off to a substitute PH who was less than satisfactory.

I have done about 3 contracts in the last 10 years, on customers requests, considering I book perhaps 150 or more hunts a year that is not many contracts..I will do one on request as long as its not too complicated, if that isn't satisfactory I usually advise them to look elsewhere....Its a crock IMO..If my word isn't good enough then what the hell can a piece of paper do for something that takes place in a 3rd world country...If a hunt goes bad then you hunt the client again and make it right at the agents and outfitters expense or refund the money, dependant on the circumstances..that ain't hard to figure and surely you don't need a piece of paper to do that.

I have been in this business a long time now and I have survived by doing the right thing. You won't last long in this business doing otherwise. Albiet I do know some African outfitters that continually jerk folks around and seem to get away with it...How I don't know.

Couldn't agree more with Ray.
A lot of explanations I read here,on how to behave,resolve and deal with "unforeseen" events are phony.In my simple world.
Allow me to explain: If and when I order a car drom an agent and place a downpayment,I want nothing else but what ordered.I am not sympathetic to loosing my down payment or full payment because the ship that carried the car here sunk etc.
If I buy a hunt,thats all we do here,I expect exactly what I specified and was agreed to.
Now I realize collcting is another matter.
That where all this "due diligence" comes in,but in practice you rely on a man delivers what was sold,not one that comes up with explanations and charges you for his misfortunes.
I certainly agree that a reaonable man can adjust and agree to changes,but that is his right to do,not his obligation.
The PhH might get sick,loose his concession etc etc.My simple question:fine,but why should that be at the hunters expense?
thats where an honest booking agent and his selected honest PH come in,they will see the world not their way,but deal with it honestly-in todays world a rare find - sorry to say

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
#1) A safari company has a lease (legal) on an area and has been given a quota of 3 lions for the year. The agent "sells" a safari for a lion hunt to 3 different clients... Bob is the first one to book but will actually be hunting last. Charles is the 2nd one to book and will be hunting first while Don buys the last hunt and will be the 2nd hunter to go. Now what happens if the Parks Dept changes it's mind and drop the quota from 3 to only 2 lions -- who gets to actually hunt and take a lion and who doesn't?

It is an event outside the outfitters and agents control. However if the hunt was specifically for a lion and this was clearly stated by the client, the agent is responsible to refund ONE hunt.

Which one?

Legally it probably would be the last booking.

Practically it would be the last hunter (by hunting date).

In reality with some unscrupulous outfitters they would just carry on and get a tracker to piss on the ground near the lion bait and take the client to places where the lions aren't likely to be.

The success rate for lion hunts seems to only be around 33% anyway so theoretically about 9 hunts would be booked. Or am I wrong with LION specific hunts. I know Tanzania of course has 21 day licences so are not really lion specific.

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Now suppose you were the client who hunted second but were the last to book -- what would your feelings be and what would be your feelings?

Upset but if it was "gov't action" then I would ask for another booking with a nice discount.

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#2) You book a hunt thru a booking agent and the contract specifies a certain PH for you hunt. When you get there for whatever reason, the safari company substitutes a qualified but different PH for your hunt --- what do you do? And who do you blame?

If the PH was not available due to sickness or something outside everyone's control you just have to lump it. But you would hope the replacement PH is going to be good as well.

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#3) You book a hunt thru a booking agent for a specific area and when you get there the safari company takes you to a different area that may be better or may not --- who do you blame?

My deal is with an agent per your scenario. I blame both and demand it be fixed per the agreed and paid for area.

If it can't be I would check out the new area and hope to hell I haven't paid the full up costs up front if it isn't up to standard. Then I would consider cancelling and still ask for a full refund. There should be lots of communication between the outfitter, agent, other parties in existence if the proper area was organised but could not be hunted for some uncontrollable reason. Unless it was a "switch scam" all along.

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#4) You book a hunt and the contract specifies you will have exclusive use of the camp but becasue of problems the safari company has someone else in camp with you for some period of time during your hunt --- who's to blame and what do you do?

The agent and the outfitter are one and the same for responsibility per law of agency so it is simple to all these questions.

Exclusivity is exclusivity. If it was important to me (it probably isn't) I would raise hell if no negotiated accomodation or settlement could not be made.

I must be either the luckiest client alive or the easiest to please!

I have never had any of my safaris go wrong.

Never had any contract

Sometimes I have paid all the safari costs months ahead, and sometimes never paid a penny until after the hunt.

Never asked for a receipt.

All the people I have ever dealt with have done their utmost to make sure everything went like a dream.

These are the people I have had the pleasure of hunting with, and would recommend all of them without any reservations whatsoever.

Klinebergers
Peter Johnston's Rosslyn Safaris in Zimbabwe
Roy and Alan Vincent
Peter Harris's Ntshonalanga Safaris in South Africa
Ray Atkinson and Pierre van Tonder

I must add that we normally go in a large group, and I can imagine the logistics of trying to make sure everything goes well with 8 clients in a camp in the middle of nowhere.

Add to that the nightmare of having to put up with the likes Walter.

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#1) A safari company has a lease (legal) on an area and has been given a quota of 3 lions for the year. The agent "sells" a safari for a lion hunt to 3 different clients... Bob is the first one to book but will actually be hunting last. Charles is the 2nd one to book and will be hunting first while Don buys the last hunt and will be the 2nd hunter to go. Now what happens if the Parks Dept changes it's mind and drop the quota from 3 to only 2 lions -- who gets to actually hunt and take a lion and who doesn't?

The first 2 who booked. If the Parks reduce the quota, then the outfitter needs to inform the agent who in turn informs the last booked client what has happened. If there is time, the Agent, Outfitter and client work out a hunt in a different concession which will offer similar hunting expectations to the original area. Trust amongst the parties is essential here.

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Is it the fault of the booking agent? Even if the client gets all of his money back and doesn't make the trip he's lost a trip he's planned and spent a lot of time setting up.

Simply No. It is NO ONES fault.

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Now suppose you were the client who hunted second but were the last to book -- what would your feelings be and what would be your feelings?

I would trust the Agent and Outfitter I chose to provide me with an equal alternative which may or may not include a refund, postponement or discount for hunting an alternative area. In most cases, unless you know the area you were scheduled to hunt and been there before, you don't really know if you are getting a better or worse deal! Again trust is essential here IMO.

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#2) You book a hunt thru a booking agent and the contract specifies a certain PH for you hunt. When you get there for whatever reason, the safari company substitutes a qualified but different PH for your hunt --- what do you do? And who do you blame?

I let the outfitter and my agent know that I should have been informed beforehand. I would proceed with the hunt on the basis that if i trusted the Agent enough with my booking and he trusted the outfitter enough to represent him, the substitute PH would be equal to or better. I would of course inform them that should the substitute PH end up being not to my expectation during the hunt I would expect some form of compensation. Again, unless we have been with the original PH before, there is no way of knowing if the substitute is worse or better . Common sense must apply!

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#3) You book a hunt thru a booking agent for a specific area and when you get there the safari company takes you to a different area that may be better or may not --- who do you blame?

Again, unless i have been to the original area or the substitute area i will never know; Except if the substitute area is obviously s**t. I would act as per #2

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#4) You book a hunt and the contract specifies you will have exclusive use of the camp but becasue of problems the safari company has someone else in camp with you for some period of time during your hunt --- who's to blame and what do you do?

If the reason for the other client in camp is a valid one, I would not mind too much. I would however, make it clear to my PH that we MUST have 1st choice of where to hunt the concession and this must be made clear to the other guest and his PH as well.

Saeed ---- why in the world would anyone do anything that would have even a remote chance of making you not book again for the next year. You've got to be one of the biggest annual sources of revenue for any safari company that lands your busihess...you bring a lot of people, you shoot a lot of animals and you stay a long time.

I would guess that 90% of the clients who have problems and/or are taken adavantage of are those on their 1st hunt and usually an inexpensive one at that.

Imagine being an idiot outfitter who tried to con Saeed and co. The owner of the Accurate Reloading web forums .

I have heard from other sources of the "Arab Prince" who goes on safari with his retinue and how they wish he would visit them.

Saeed mate, you should get a commission from the outfitters whom you hunt with, with all the free publicity they get afterwards.

Walter is the price they must pay.

Some people have a nose for bullshit.

Others will devour it gladly and think it chocolate pudding.

All of the safeguards on earth will not improve the former's sense of smell or the latter's sense of taste.