I was having some email communication the other day with Nickudu and I mentioned some experience my best shooting mate had in Africa and also accuracy testing we did with Barnes X bullets. My mate has used them almost exclusively since they first came out and he has also used some Winchester Failsafe as well as testing GS bullets in 264 on lighter game (for expansion or lack of). Nickudu thought the information might be of some interest or use to someone. So here goes.

My mate has made 4 trips to Africa and shot approximately 120 plains animals from the small ones through to Eland. A very large percentage of his kills have been Kudu, Wildebeeste and Zebra.

On his first trip he took a 7mm STW with 160 Barnes X bullets and 257 Wby with 115 Barnes Xs. A friend with him took 7mm Rem and 130 Barnes Xs. He found the heavy short ogive 160 7mm and 115 257 to be inferior to the 130 grain in 7mm Rem. That trip and some other testing in Australia showed that the best Barnes X to use (at least in these 30 calibres and down) are the mid weight bullets that have a pencil or spire point. 180s in 30 calibre are like this.

His next trip was with 300 Wby and 180 Barnes X (pencil point)257 Wby with 90 grain Barnes X and 358 STA with 225 Barnes X. He also had a 340 Wby that shot well with 210 grain Barnes X but he elected to take the 358 STA.

That trip resulted in him selling off his 300 Wby, 358 STA and 340 Wby barrels and for two reasons. Firstly he does not like recoil but he can shoot without fliching at 375 H&H levels. However for practical purposes he found the 257 Wby with 90 grain Barnes X to be as good. His conclusion was that if you wanted to slam Wildebeeste and Zebra size animals down like we do with roos and a 308 with 130 Speer Hollow points, then one probably needs a 460 or similar. In short, he found these animals that were chest shot with the Barnes X from either the 257 or 300 were not long for this world. He was also of the opinion that if he could shoot these animals by the truckload as we do for roos and pigs then a difference would show up between the 257 and 300. But in either case it would be somewhat like comparing a 22/250 with heavier bullets to a 243 for use on pigs.

His next trip included the 7mm STW with both 140 grain Barnes Xs and 140 and 160 grain Winchester Failsafes and of course the 257. He thought the Barnes Xs were superior to the Failsafes but again the real world results were the same.

After the third trip he set up a second matching 257 Wby and a macthing 264 Winchester. They are all Rem 700 Stainless, match grade Number 5 barrels and Jewell trigger and barrels can be changed between actions. He did the 264 as a sort of 257 dupicate but with a better brass situation and aimed for Australia shoting.

His fourth trip was just the 257 Wbys.

He has also shot elk in Australia (these would be like your ranch hunts in the US) using the 257 with 90 grains Barnes X.

With GS bullets he tested the 110 grainers from the 264 on roos and deliberately took low chest shots. These were not as effective as Barnes X but were very adequate. They demonstrated slower expansion or later expansion. Often you get big exit holes but the animal runs (or in this case hops ) for a short distance. The GS bullets were very accurate and easy to get shooting, in fact quite comparable to 100 grain Ballistic Tips in the 264.

He has had good accuracy with the Barnes X bullets and in fact I did quite a bit of testing for him since at the time I had four switch barrel bench style guns on Rem 700s and his and my actions had all being faced off so barrels were interchangeable.

A couple things we found with accuracy with Barnes Xs.

Firstly, they seem to be best if you start a new barrel with them (or at least use a bucketful of Sweets 7.62 solvent) and don't shoot any guilding metal jacketed bullets like Hornady etc. We never tried them but I think Swift A Frames would be OK as they are copper jacket. Any cast bullet shooters here will be well aware of accuracy difficulties shooting cast bullets after jacketed.

Secondly, you need to load for the Barnes X. I think too many people simply use the same powder, primer and so on for the Barnes X as they did for the Hornady.

Thirdly, they seem to shoot easier with undersize barrels. Our barrel maker does barrels in .3065 for target shooting with military 144 grain 7.62 ammo. A 300 Wby and a 300 Jarret made on these barrels gave easy to obtain accuracy with Barnes Xs. 358 STAs (3 separate barrels) in .357 diameter were also great for accuracy.

I think with Africa and Elk in Australia, my mate's experience and of course using premium bullets was very much along the lines that if the 270 and down bore size is not big enough then you probably need to jump right up in size to perhaps over 40 calibre.

Mike

[ 04-03-2003, 19:55: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Nebraska

I wil get some exact loads off him in the next day or so. However, I should point out that the 257s and 300s are standard Wby chambers in terms of the freebore. All his loads are at the top in that a couplegrains more and there are ejector marks on the case.

An undersize barrel is smaller than the standard grove diameter and standard groove diameter is the same as bullet diameter eg. 30 calibre is .308 and bullets are .308 diamter. 35 calibre (except pistols) is .358 and bullets are .358"

Mike

NitroX

He only used the 358 STA on a couple animals and you could be right about the 375.

Although if one reads many of the postings that are on this forum where plains game of Wildebeeste and Zebra size is being shot, the 375 certainly appears to be more in the area of the animal running for a while as opposed to lots of drop on the spots.

I will check with him on where the trips were to. I know one was to Sth Africa and I think another to Zimbabwe. I also remember him saying that on one of the trips the ranges were close and the county bushy and a 338/06 or similar would have been fine.

Mike

Mike,

I must just raise one point about6 BarnesX at high speed. I had a client last year with a 300 RUM loaded with 180 grain BarnesX running at 3200 fps. We were hunting the eastern Cape so long shots were in the order of the day the avg being around 180 yards.

The problem was that the bullets acted like solids not opening up at all 3 shots on a gemsbuck to bring it down all in the vital area 2 shots trough a blue wildebeest one of the shots breaking both shoulders and still no bigger exit hole than the entrance.

Finally he went back happy with his bag with some fine trophies but dissapointed with the bullets I told him to load barnes as I know they would have been the one of the only bullets to hold up at such speeds and would withstand impact on eland as well.

He got on the phone with Barnes and they only guaraantee expansion between velocities 1600 fps and 2800 fps so what must have happened is that the bullet would have folded in closing the hole in front instead of going the other way that was our theory on it ! So just a word of caution if you are going to use barnes try not to push them past 3000 fps

Safari-Hunt

The early versions of the Hornady Hollow Ponts in 75 grain 243 and 110 grain 270 often closed over. At least I assume that is what use to happen to them.

Do you know if the Barnes Xs used in your post were earlier ones as the early Barnes Xs were not good expanders.

Mike

Mike
I posted these earlier but will repost. These are two bullets from a 9.3x74R, certainly within the Barnes expansion envelope. The one on the left went through a Zebra and entered into a second Zebra at the knee where it stopped. Distance was 50-60 yards for first Zebra and 100 or so for second. The exit for the first Zebra was same size as entrance. It ran about 150 yards and stood. Very little blood on ground or in Zebra.

The one on the right is okay but nothing great in the expansion area.

I showed it to Randy Brooks at SCI and got a shrug and an offer of another box of bullets but why would I want anymore bullets that acted like these?

MIKE375: I've never taken my .35 Whelen to Africa, but I always use 200 X bullets in it. I've heard they have quit making them, but I still have a good supply. This bullet which is light for the bore really puts elk down. I've had complete penetration front to back, as well. I had one of the early 200 X fail to expand. It was shot through an elk's heart at 300+ yards. It exited the body, and then broke the right front leg and stopped against the bone.

Started on a clean bore, I have never had much problem in getting X bullets to shoot.

****WARNING***WARNING***WARNING**** On my last trip to Africa I intended to use factory 300 Weatherby ammo loaded with Xs. Apparently, the same amount of powder was used for Xs as with their factory Hornadys. I was practicing with the Xs in 90 degree weather when the primers blew out and practically jammed my bolt. Repeated emails/calls to Weatherby resulted in replacement ammo (Hornadys, which proved too soft for high velocity close in shots)and an "explanation: from Weatherby after they "tested" my ammo. That was two years ago and I never heard back from them. I've since switched to handloads or factory Nosler Partitions. The Xs in 180gr ARE DANGEROUS!!!!

A very infomative post! However, I have never been able to get any kind of decent accuracy in any of my rifles with any of the X-bullets, regardless of caliber, or weight! I use Nosler Partitions, mostly, but sometimes use Swift A-Frames, in all my bolt rifles, and have never had any complaint with them! In my doubles I use Woodliegh weldcore softs, and solids. No complaints with them either!

Mickey1

I wonder if the 9.3 calibre lacks development with thise bullets.

I believe Randy Brooks is a 416 Remington fan. I have used the 350 grain X bullets in the 416 Wby and they shot well and were easy to get shooting. An aqaintanced of mine had good accuracy results with them in a Ruger 416 Rigby. The Rigby user has them loaded to the equivalent of the 400 grain load at 2400 (a bit more of the same powder with the 350 X). Both the Rigby user and another 416 Wby shooter (350 grain Xs at 2850)shot several roos with them and they took the roos apart.

I have also noticed that 416 shooters in general on this forum also seem to get easy to obtain accuracy with Barnes Xs. Perhaps randy Brooks being a 416 remington fan has something to do with this.

Mike

I have a .257 Wby was shooting 100gr.Barns X they did not group well. Shot a bear at 400yrds Twice and all four peddels broke off under the hide. Ever animal I've killed with them two or more peddels broke off. Now I use Partitions.

I've had some classic failures with BarnesX bullets, but I have seen a lot of clients use them with perfect results, Bob Meirr and Tony Estandia used them in Tanzania last year and they performed to perfection..Both were using 416 Remingtons...

I have come to the conclusion that when they work, the work perfectly, and when they fail, they fail miserably..

I do think that Randy has some quality control problems, probably due to such a high volume of business. Be warned, don't talk to Connie, she gets pretty waspy with a complaint or so I've been told by a lot of folks.

I have had very good results with the GS Custom HV's but have had limited use with them...The GS Flat Nose Solid is the creame de Creame of solids. Works amazingly well on plainsgame also, but again with limited use....

Good post Mike, I found it very interresting..

I also had no trouble getting my 416 Rem to shoot 350 X bullets. As a matter of fact, It took one trip to the range and an article by Ross Seyfried. It has shot one ragged hole every trip to the range.