There will be a 60 Minutes segment tonight on lions and the threat to lion survival. I am sure it will unbiased and objective.

Can't wait!

Thanks Mike.What did they say?

i think i just went deaf and blind

I just finished watching the episode. There was really no mention of hunting, but the greenies were saying that to save lions in Kenya they needed to ban a certain pesticide that the Masai uses to poison the lions after they make a kill.

It was about the use of pesticides to kill lions that attack cattle. No mention of hunting. They did talk about creating incentives for the Masai not to poison lions, like compensating the Masai for cattle that was killed. Not surprisingly, no mention of programs like Campfire or ADMADE that use hunting to create incentives to preserve wildlife.

quote:

I thought the same why not incent the Masai with a 20,000 dollar trophy fee vs. some guy buying them a new cow.

It was another typically sad and shallow piece of political correctness. There was no mention of hunting as an incentive. When they asked Dr. Leakey what could be done, my ears perked up since in his book "Wildlife Wars" he refers to hunting, properly done, as a good conservation tool. He also says the response he got in Kenya at the time was overwhelmingly negative as too many politically connected people were against it. His sole response on 60 minutes was just to ban the pesticide. Very disappointing.

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Alf,

You just described Ethiopia. Same situation.
Rich Elliott

Rich and Alf,
I agree with you. I watched the show and found it interesting as it dealt with Kenya, not the rest of Africa.

What is the answer or what is a workable solution? Hard to say other than the old days are long gone and that People Management will likely be more important than wildlife management.

Kenya has a generation of non-hunters running the place and living there. Changing the mind set will be like changing the Russians from Communist kleptocracy to a capitalist democracy. The generation of Russians from age 40 and up cannot change to a new system, no matter what. We are seeing the same in Kenya. Kenya and Botswana will likely go the way of RSA at some point - ranches and private lands set up for hunting as the most lucrative "crops". Unfortunately, the US is headed that way and will likely be much like Europe in our generation.

One way to stop killing of lions by the locals is, if a local is cought killing a lion, don't compensate him,for the cow, but fine him half his cattle for killing the lion. Word will get around very quickly!

The 60 Minutes show stated that there are about 30,000 lions on the continent. I've seen other estimates that range from 21,000 to 47,000. Does anyone here know a good source for accurate info on the lion population in Africa?

Pa. pesticide maker vows steps to protect lions
Comments Mar 29, 2009 8:32 PM (20 hrs ago) By RON TODT, AP

PHILADELPHIA (Map, News) - The manufacturer of a pesticide blamed by conservationists for the poisoning deaths of lions and other animals in Kenya says it is taking "aggressive action" to prevent misuse of the product, halting sales to the country and trying to buy back supplies.

Carbofuran, marketed as Furadan by Philadelphia-based FMC Corp., is used to control insects and other pests on crops such as corn, rice and sorghum. The European Union has banned use of the chemical, and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency is moving to bar its use on all food crops.

But conservationists and researchers say that the product is widely available and inexpensive in East Africa and that herdsmen trying to protect their animals from lions and hyenas use it to poison the predators. Scientist and conservationist Richard Leakey has called for a ban due to the problem.

Laurence Frank, a University of California-Berkeley researcher, told the university's alumni magazine California for an article earlier this year that it was "unspeakably tragic" that lions, "the signature carnivore for the continent, have vanished throughout most of the country."

Frank told CBS' "60 Minutes" for Sunday's program that he knows of more than 30 poisonings in one area and 35 to 40 in another, which he considers only "the tiny tip of the iceberg." He told the program that if the poisonings don't stop, the fate of the African lion may be sealed.

Milton Steele, vice president for agricultural products at FMC Corp., told The Associated Press in an interview Sunday that he found it "horrendous" to think that one of the company's products might be used to kill endangered wildlife. But he said that he knew of no definitive proof that Furadan had been involved and that a Kenyan investigation of the suspected poisonings of two lions on the Maasai Mara Reserve early last year concluded the product was not involved.

Nevertheless, because of the number of stories of poisonings and "hearsay" that Furadan was the preferred choice of herdsman, the company suspended sales of the pesticide in Kenya in May, Steele said. FMC also recently began a buyback program to encourage growers and herdsmen to return any remaining supplies, he said.

"We will not resume sales until such time as we can be assured that the deliberate widespread misuse of our product won't occur, and if we can't be assured of that there is going to be no more sales to Kenya," Steele said.

Steele said the company wanted to work with Leakey and Frank to determine whether the pesticide was involved and to ensure that there are no future poisonings. He said, however, he believed use of Furadan should continue where animal poisonings are not a problem.

"It still serves a valuable function in helping to grow food for the world," he said.

The product in the past has been blamed for massive bird deaths, but Steele said the company has heard of no bird kills since 2000 stemming from proper use, although deliberate poisonings have occurred. The company is contesting the EPA's proposed ban and last year filed for reapproval for use of the chemical in the European Union, he said.

FMC estimates that less than 50,000 gallons of carbofuran will be used in the United States this year, primarily on potatoes, sunflowers and special pest problems in corn in Midwest and Northwest states. A granular form is used on pumpkins, pine seedlings and spinach grown for seed but totals no more than 2,500 pounds a year, the company said.

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ALF,
Can you tell more about the Diclofenac issue or point me to some literature?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I think the program was well done and it's a subject that needs attention. It basically has nothing to do with hunting at all and has everything to do with unregulated availability of pecticides that are banned and regulated in the USA and Europe being freely available in that country.

Will commercial hunting safe Kenya's wildlife,

No! Personally I dont think so purely from a perspective of where the wildlife is found and where it's human population lives. Furthermore it's population relies on subsistance farming and cattle forms an integral part of their cultural existance and heritage.

Unless you are prepared to remove people from the land, alter their culture and belief system, create wildlife areas hunting will not work.

Will Americans or any other people tolerate that in their own country, methinks not, Africa is no different !

Kenya's population per square km of land is double that of the USA (59 vs 31 per square km) and they are found exactly where the game is concentrated. So in reality it's likely too late.

To put it bluntly bar the northern frontier where its basically a desert if you go for a pis behind a bush there will be a person or persons watching you...... and this I know from personal experience.

I disagree. Like everything in life it boils down to money, period.

It is foolish to believe that the lions would be allowed to go on their merry way if it weren't for these chemicals. You can't ban every possible animal poison on earth! Heck they might just start putting anitfreeze out for the lions to drink.

Sport hunting of these lions as a PAC hunt could put some serious money in the pockets of the tribesman and the government. All you need to do is report a cow being killed by a lion and s sport hunter pays $20,000 to come out and take care of it. You could buy the guy 10 cows for every one he lost and still give a ton of money to the government. If someone got 10 cows for every cow he lost he'd look forward to loosing one!

Lions are hated because they cost the tribesman a cow and therefor money. If they made money everytime a lion took a cow they'd love them. It really is that simple.

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I'm afraid that I agree that it's too late for Kenya's lion population - and their elephant population too, BTW.

These great animals will be reduced to zoo status in Kenya before too much longer.

We can't turn back the clock.

Although I can't help but think that Kenya's lion and elephant populations would be better off today if their politicians had not banned hunting over thirty years ago.

In Africa today, it has become a war of attrition between people and wild game animals, especially dangerous game animals, and of course the people will "win" over time.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
GeofM24:

How many lion are we talking about here ?

Estimates indicate roughly betwwen 2280 and 3277, thats it for whole of Kenya and they are stuck in 13 reserves or distinct areas surrounded by literally a sea of humanity.

In the areas in question regarding the poisoning, the Maasai have some rights to traverse and graze their cattle and they cross the border between Tanzania and Kenya freely.

Are you going to change this ? how exactly? Compensate them because first world playboys want to hunt?

Some may not know but the Maasai are currently enaged in Land rights claims as they were twice removed from their ancestral lands by the British and the whole issue of financial benefit from tourism on their ancestral land is not getting back to them.

I don't care where the lion are or how many people are around them. If they get compensated in Kenya and not Tanzania where do you think they will graze? PAC hunts are always in areas where people are or they wouldn't be "problem animals".

"Compensate them BECAUSE first world palyboys want to hunt" Don't look now but your bias is showing. Any compensation would be BECAUSE a lion killed some of their cattle. It would happen to be BY a first world playboy because they are willing to put their money were their mouths are.

In the real world the only partnerships that work are ones where all parties get something out of the deal.

Lions aren't dying because poison exists, they are dying because they are costing the natives MONEY.

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quote:

Originally posted by Alf

Estimates indicate roughly betwwen 2280 and 3277, thats it for whole of Kenya and they are stuck in 13 reserves or distinct areas surrounded by literally a sea of humanity.
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Just find a National Park in Africa on "Googlearth" and scroll in and see how the farms are right up or with in the Park boundary's.