Interesting article.
Especially the part about the revenue being insufficient to pay the game scouts salaries.

It reads like hunters should not kill pride males, because of the infanticide issue.
But, the hunters should not kill roving younger males, because they end up being able to kill an older pride male if they are not hunted and killed prior to reaching that age.

I would have been interested in reading how many Lions they project are in country. As well, the economic impact curtailing sport hunting would have on the economy, especially those game scouts and safari crews.

Saeed, you have PH/Safari Company contacts. Would you be interested in contacting them to find out what percentage of the ($$$)cost of a Lion hunt goes to the government of the various countries where Lion hunting is permitted.

thanks,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Interesting article.
Especially the part about the revenue being insufficient to pay the game scouts salaries.

It reads like hunters should not kill pride males, because of the infanticide issue.
But, the hunters should not kill roving younger males, because they end up being able to kill an older pride male if they are not hunted and killed prior to reaching that age.

I would have been interested in reading how many Lions they project are in country. As well, the economic impact curtailing sport hunting would have on the economy, especially those game scouts and safari crews.

Saeed, you have PH/Safari Company contacts. Would you be interested in contacting them to find out what percentage of the ($$$)cost of a Lion hunt goes to the government of the various countries where Lion hunting is permitted.

thanks,

Rich

Rich:

Excluding trophy fees of other animals taken during the course of the hunt, Lion alone + royalties would come close to 20G - all payable to the Game Dept.

According the Tanzania Lion Survey posted by Saeed previously, there are approximately 16,000 lions in Tanzania of which 200 are legally hunted per year.

rather interesting that this is bases on a univ of minn. study. one of the most liberal mindsets in the country, and definately not pro hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
According the Tanzania Lion Survey posted by Saeed previously, there are approximately 16,000 lions in Tanzania of which 200 are legally hunted per year.

Correctly stated - and that "Tanzania hosts the largest Lion population in Africa" - yet according to Packer, it needs to reduce its off-take?
How would his sense of reasoning compare to other Lion hunting countries in Africa, whose populations are far smaller? - Ah yes, we need to consider the "farmed Lions" - (there are about 3,000 of those)

The BBC report contradicts the Packer Report with its claim of 500 Lion being taken in Tanzania every year by trophy hunters - What's it to be? - 200 or 500?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
The BBC report contradicts the Packer Report with its claim of 500 Lion being taken in Tanzania every year by trophy hunters - What's it to be? - 200 or 500?

The gentleman writing the article got confused. 500 is the yearly CITES approved quota for Tanzania. That said they only take around 160-200 lions a year. One of the huge flaws with Packer's study/analysis is that the historic time range they're using for the article covers a time in lion hunting very different from today. Lion hunting has changed in the last 15 years and their study fails to take that into acount by lumping lion hunting now in with lion hunting 5, 10, and even 15 years ago. I'm not saying the article is totally bunk you just have to take parts of it with a grain of salt.

Brett

Brett:

In theory therefore am I correct with my mathematics in saying that Tanzania is utilizing 0.01% of its entire population on a yearly basis?
And the sport hunting of Lions on a given quota of 500 is declared to be unsustainable

If the quota was set at 500 I guess it was calculated according to sustainability and the fact that just 40% of the quota is actually taken indicates that there is some concern being attributed by some PHs to age factor - or am I wrong?

And for sure, 15 -25 years ago there were less Maasai, hence less livestock, more free land for Lions to roam and hunt, less poaching, etc.
When a toothless or half crippled Lion took livestock it was hunted down - nowadays they just get poisoned; the entire pride, hyenas, jackals, vultures and any other scavenger that partakes of the carcass bites the dust!

Witchdoctors back then didn't give a rat's ass for the body parts of a Lion - that came later when the orientals showed up.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Brett:

In theory therefore am I correct with my mathematics in saying that Tanzania is utilizing 0.01% of its entire population on a yearly basis?
And the sport hunting of Lions on a given quota of 500 is declared to be unsustainable

If the quota was set at 500 I guess it was calculated according to sustainability and the fact that just 40% of the quota is actually taken indicates that there is some concern being attributed by some PHs to age factor - or am I wrong?

And for sure, 15 -25 years ago there were less Maasai, hence less livestock, more free land for Lions to roam and hunt, less poaching, etc.
When a toothless or half crippled Lion took livestock it was hunted down - nowadays they just get poisoned; the entire pride, hyenas, jackals, vultures and any other scavenger that partakes of the carcass bites the dust!

Witchdoctors back then didn't care for the body parts of a Lion - that came later when the orientals showed up.

I think you're exactly right that some PHs are in fact doing a good job in being selective about lion harvest. Another take could be that some areas lion populations are to the point that only a hand full of the quota can be utilized even if the company is willing to be at 100% quota utilization. Likely it's a combination of the two.

The important thing to realize is that 200 dead sport hunted lions doesn't necesarily equal 200 dead lions. Due to infanticide if you shoot the wrong lions 200 dead lions could equal 300, 400, or even 500 dead lions.

No doubt there are many problems today with poaching and habitat loss that weren't even close to a problem 20, 40, or 100 years ago.

Brett

As devicive as the lion aging guidelines have been I'm eagerly awaiting the day when someone comes out with leopard aging guidelines!!!!!! Talk about duck for cover!!!!!!!!!!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
As devicive as the lion aging guidelines have been I'm eagerly awaiting the day when someone comes out with leopard aging guidelines!!!!!! Talk about duck for cover!!!!!!!!!!

Brett

Rest assured that there will be an expert with PhD qualifications on Leopards lurking out there!

What was it, thirty years or so ago that we had a similar report on Elephants?
Sounds more like somebody at UM got some serious paid vacations in Africa and then had to return home and justify that time.

Rich
DRSS

Lepards should be simple, just tree them with your hounds or spot them with your light....if nose is not pink, shoot them....

Brett,

Can I ask where you got the figure of 500 lions as the CITES quota?

I think you'll find that lions are CITES II and with one or exceptions such as Ethiopia, are not a CITES quotad animal.

The latest figures I can find are for 1992 to 2002 and the average is about 200 and odd lions a year being sport hunted in TZ so a jump to 500 a year sounds a bit dubious to me and I'd like to know where the author or Dr Packer got that figure from.

Tanzania does however have a sport hunting quota of 500 leopard...... but I'd seriously doubt they take anywhere near that number.

This article is debated extensively on the facebook page Lion Aid and another one Lions for Africa , I have been trying to enlighten the plethora of anti hunters to not much success- fellow hunters it would be appreciated if you could log onto these anti hunting pages ( mostly refering to canned Lion hunting as well ) and help get the facts out there.
Kind regards
Graeme Pollock

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Brett,

Can I ask where you got the figure of 500 lions as the CITES quota?

I think you'll find that lions are CITES II and with one or exceptions such as Ethiopia, are not a CITES quotad animal.

The latest figures I can find are for 1992 to 2002 and the average is about 200 and odd lions a year being sport hunted in TZ so a jump to 500 a year sounds a bit dubious to me and I'd like to know where the author or Dr Packer got that figure from.

Tanzania does however have a sport hunting quota of 500 leopard...... but I'd seriously doubt they take anywhere near that number.

I'm pretty sure I read it in one of if not both of the articles that came up lately. It's possible that I confused the lion with the leopard. I'll look the articles over again when I get a chance.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Brett,

Can I ask where you got the figure of 500 lions as the CITES quota?

I think you'll find that lions are CITES II and with one or exceptions such as Ethiopia, are not a CITES quotad animal.

The latest figures I can find are for 1992 to 2002 and the average is about 200 and odd lions a year being sport hunted in TZ so a jump to 500 a year sounds a bit dubious to me and I'd like to know where the author or Dr Packer got that figure from.

Tanzania does however have a sport hunting quota of 500 leopard...... but I'd seriously doubt they take anywhere near that number.

I was dreaming the CITES thing. What I was remembering was the total anual lion quota alotted in the country of Tanzania. That quota over the last 5 years has ranged from 486-525 lions.
Look here on page 50: http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/tgtls2010.pdf

Brett

Brett,

I can't download the document for some reason at the moment..... probably the fault of my server....

However, I'd guess they're probably referring to the number of export licences issued by the game dept rather than CITES quota because lion are CITES II and don't require a CITES quota or export permit.

They will however, require an ordinary game dept export permit and vet inspection etc.

Brett

Finally managed to download it and give it a look over but not a careful study.

The intro says "about 200 lions are legally harvested every year in Tanzania"

Page 44 quotes figures that between 2005 and 2008 an average of 199.75 a year were taken.

Page 48 says 26% of hunting areas didn't take any lions over that same period and although I didn't use a calculator, I think it's about between 1 - 2 taken per 1000 Km2 for the other areas over the same period.

Page 56 says the study extrapolated a total lion population of around 16800 for the whole country.

Page 61 points out that at least 120 lions in the Tarangire region alone were illegally killed between 2005 and 2009. - That to me is an alrming number but let's face it. It's nothing new. As I've said before, all the time there's breath in a single Masai, he'll want to kill lions by any and all means possible. Subsequent pages go on to discuss this but my own opinion is you'll NEVER stop the Massai killing lions.

I think the Chardonnay reports are invaluable but frankly, my own guess is that sooner or later (probably sooner) we'll see an upgrade to CITES I for lion. I fully understand why JJ wants to avoid that and fights so hard against it but my guess is it'll happen in the next 4-6 years or so.

however, assuming CITES issue a sport hunted quota, that will only mean the hunter needs to get a licence to import just as he does with leopard etc now.

I think we might also see a reduction in the quota per block issued by the game dept but I don't really see that will make much difference. some areas don't take any or only take part of their quota now and even taking one lion can make a big difference to the general population if it's the wrong lion.

So, all in all, I'm buggered if I know what the answer is but FWIW, I see no mention of 500 a year being taken by sport hunters.

Also as the species is CITES II there's no CITES licence required. I think you might have got game dept quota confused with CITES quota?

I'll also add that as I see it, it's not the trophy hunting that's unsustainable at all, it's the illegal killing of lions by people like the Masai....... and there ain't no cure for that.

How's that for a long post that says pretty much bugger all!!!

quote:

I'll also add that as I see it, it's not the trophy hunting that's unsustainable at all, it's the illegal killing of lions by people like the Masai.......

100% correct

quote:

....... and there ain't no cure for that.

Aah...but there is a cure for everything...one just has to discover it.

Steve:

quote:

Page 61 points out that at least 120 lions in the Tarangire region alone were illegally killed between 2005 and 2009. - That to me is an alrming number but let's face it. It's nothing new. As I've said before, all the time there's breath in a single Masai, he'll want to kill lions by any and all means possible. Subsequent pages go on to discuss this but my own opinion is you'll NEVER stop the Massai killing lions.

The Maasai issue has been brought up time and again, are the main culprits and as you say WILL NEVER STOP and is likely to rebound due to increasing herds of cattle - technology in the form of poison and hypodermic syringes has taken over
In addition the local 'medicine men' have discovered hidden healing powers in lion body parts and created a high demand.

The GD has been reducing lion quotas in blocks which were showing under utilization on a regular basis and I doubt many blocks actually fully utilize their lion quotas. IMO the current legally hunted quota is unlikely to have any adverse effect on the Tanzanian lion population provided the rules are respected.

Lane,

Other than wiping out the Masai, I can't see how the illegal killing could possibly be stopped.... even when the Brits ran the place they couldn't stop the Masai killing lions.... they might have slowed it down but they never managed to stop it.

quote:

Other than wiping out the Masai, I can't see how the illegal killing could possibly be stopped....

I know it would be a challenge...but...where there is a will...there is a way!

Wills...are just hard to come by sometimes!

I'd be prepared to bet there'll be no more lions before they'll be no more Masai.

In an ideal world, you'd be able to educate them out of their lion fixation but in the real world there's no chance of that happening.

quote:

I'd be prepared to bet there'll be no more lions before they'll be no more Masai.

Maybe.

But I hope not...cost the same to be an optomist as it does a pessimist however.

quote:

even when the Brits ran the place

Bloody brits!!!

If they would have just had guts enough to hold on to something...all would be better off.

I couldn't agree more buddy but can I point out it was your lot that chucked our tea in the briny!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I couldn't agree more buddy but can I point out it was your lot that chucked our tea in the briny!

We could see that "y'all" were just gonna muck us up, wait 'til the 21st century, then hand us back over to the native Americans!

Hey, at least we'd have saved you from the Obamaination...... mind you, we'd have given you Bliar & Brown instead!

And that REALLY would have been a disaster!

quote:

at least we'd have saved you from the Obamaination......

And NOTHING could be worse than that!!! Bring me a pint of Guiness!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

And NOTHING could be worse than that!!! Bring me a pint of Guiness!

How about a nice cup of tea to chase it down afterwards?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

And NOTHING could be worse than that!!! Bring me a pint of Guiness!

How about a nice cup of tea to chase it down afterwards?

Only if you have learned to put ice in it!

Thought you might enjoy this letter an Aussie sent me:

To the citizens of the United States of America
from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

In light of your immediate failure to
financially manage yourselves and also in recent years to elect incompetent Presidents of the USA herefore not be able to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
independence, effective immediately.


(You should
look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.)


Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas, which she does not fancy).


Your new Prime Minister, David Cameron, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further
elections.

Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated sometime next year
to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
-----------------------

1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix
'-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.' Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary').

------------------------

2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ''like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of '-ize.'

-------------------

3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

-----------------

4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a
therapist,then you're not ready to shoot grouse.

----------------------

5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

----------------------
6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

--------------------

7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.

-------------------

8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

-------------------

9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. Australian beer is also acceptable, as Australia is pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British
Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

---------------------
10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be
required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.

---------------------

11. You will cease playing American football. There are only three kinds of proper football; one you
call soccer, Australian Rules and rugby (dominated by the Australians). Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not
involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

---------------------

12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the Australians (again World dominators) first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

--------------------

13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.

-----------------

14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

---------------

15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.

------------------

God Save the Queen!



PS: Only share this with friends who have a good sense of humour (NOT humor)!

I tried iced (Earl Grey) tea yesterday...... and it was bloody terrible!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I tried iced (Earl Grey) tea yesterday...... and it was bloody terrible!

Earl Gay...hell!!! Lipton's!

OK, So maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Lipton's tea & ice....... how about lime and/or sugar etc?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
OK, So maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Lipton's tea & ice....... how about lime and/or sugar etc?

That is why we dumped all that tea in the harbor...the brits din't know how to use it properly and it was irritating.

Start with some hiqh quality water. Boil a pot of strong tea. IE: 4 regular size Lipton's Tea bags to a quart of water. Q.S. up to 2 quarts with ice and cold water. Then pour over ice and add sugar and lemon to taste...MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm!!! Good!

Why can't someone convince the Masai that collecting coke cans and Tusker beer cans is a higher representation of wealth than cattle, goats or camels??

quote:

God Save the Queen!

I am afraid God could not even save her...if she tried to take back the good ole US of A!

But...she would certainly be in need of his help!!!

Righto Lane my friend..... you've convinced me to give it another try tomorrow.

Hey, if you want the Queen, you can have her but you have to take the rest of her family and in laws as well.

Alternatively, if we can't get residency here, you just might get Susan and I but you'll have to let us live in Texas or very near to Texas!