The entrance wound. The bulge under the skin is where the bullet came to rest.



The Hornady 250 gr. SST/ML bullet fired from a 460 S&W Magnum Thompson/Center Encore handgun from about 80 yards. It was a one shot bang flop kill.

Question:
Is this bullet failure?

Choices:
This IS bullet failure.
This IS NOT bullet failure.

 

THE "FORREST GUMP" ANSWER.
The impala died instantly .. the bullet succeeded.

In my oppinion yes the bullet failed structurally. It did serve its intended purpose on this Impala, however; there is no guarantee that it would have penetrated the full depth of the vitals on a larger, harder animal such as Eland, Gemsbuck, Sable....etc.

What type of bullet was it? Looks like possibly an early hornaday interlock??

What kind of bullet? How far was the shot?

If it was a muzzle loader ball shot at 500 yards then I would consider it superb performance.

It was a 250 gr. Hornady SST/ML (ML stands for muzzle loader) bullet shot from about 80 yards. I've used the same bullet to take a Zebra and an Red Hartebeest as well as on some smaller animals with good success in all.

Considering the bullet trajectory and the bang flop reaction, the bullet probably hit the spine though I wasn't present when the animal was butchered.

"At what point in the animal's demise did the bullet fail?"

What did you intend for the bullet to do? Drop smaller antelope quickly or penetrate deeper on larger game?

I voted NO the bullet did not fail. At least in this instance. If you don't like to see lead separate from the jacket, shoot a Barnes solid copper bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
"At what point in the animal's demise did the bullet fail?"

Sorry DC, but that has always been a weak definition IMO. The animal can certainly die but the bullet still can fail.
For that Impala, that shot, no, that to me is almost perfect performance. BUT, larger animal or a 1/4 shot, maybe.

No bullet failure.

You killed the impala with one shot.

It penetrated more than deep and made a big enough wound chanel to damage the vital organs to ensure a clean kill.

Is that not what we expect from a bullet.

To penetrate deep enough and create a big wound channel?

No disrespect, but in what science is a trial size of ONE valuable evidence of anything???

I've got a good friend, a scientist by-the-way, who has shot a grand total of two feral pigs in his life. They were both similarly sized large boars. He used Nosler Partitions on each. Both were killed with one shot with somewhat similar shot placement. The one shot with a .300 Win. ran about 100 yards further before expiring further than the one shot with his .270 Win.

To talk to him about calibers, there is NO question in his mind that the .270 is a considerably better killer than the .300.

It cracks me up. Whenever this topic comes up I always ask him how well he could have gotten scientific respect in his career for a conclusion based on a sample size of ONE. For some reason simple scientific principles don't come into play for hobbies.

I've seen around 1,500 pigs taken and I'd hate to make much of a judgement about a particular bullet without at least 5 or 10 trials. I've carried very large rifles with certain bullets that failed to penetrate pigs about 1/2 the time. While I've carried the same exact style bullet in one smaller rifle for years and never recovered a single bullet, this is over dozens of animals.

If in this particular case you used a bullet that's been on the market a while and used to good success by many hunters I wouldn't sweat it if you didn't get your version of perfect performance in this one case.

Kyler

quote:

Originally posted by Kyler Hamann:
No disrespect, but in what science is a trial size of ONE valuable evidence of anything???

I've got a good friend, a scientist by-the-way, who has shot a grand total of two feral pigs in his life. They were both similarly sized large boars. He used Nosler Partitions on each. Both were killed with one shot with somewhat similar shot placement. The one shot with a .300 Win. ran about 100 yards further before expiring further than the one shot with his .270 Win.

To talk to him about calibers, there is NO question in his mind that the .270 is a considerably better killer than the .300.

It cracks me up. Whenever this topic comes up I always ask him how well he could have gotten scientific respect in his career for a conclusion based on a sample size of ONE. For some reason simple scientific principles don't come into play for hobbies.

I've seen around 1,500 pigs taken and I'd hate to make much of a judgement about a particular bullet without at least 5 or 10 trials. I've carried very large rifles with certain bullets that failed to penetrate pigs about 1/2 the time. While I've carried the same exact style bullet in one smaller rifle for years and never recovered a single bullet, this is over dozens of animals.

If in this particular case you used a bullet that's been on the market a while and used to good success by many hunters I wouldn't sweat it if you didn't get your version of perfect performance in this one case.

Kyler

Kyler, a very good post and true as the sunrise if you are asking about the failier of all bullets like the one used here. However, I think in this case the poster was asking if "THIS" bullet failed! That is a zebra of a different stripe.

If the criteria is simply, "did the bullet kill the animal" then it was a resounding success. If the question is "did the bullet perform as well as it could have on such a light animal" Then the answer is no it didn't. Almost any bullet, of any size shot from within 200 yds would have, hit at the same point, and angle would have penetrated out and continued on down range, on that little Impala. To many people a bullet that doesn't exit, is a failier, and to others a perfect bullet design is one that penetrates just far enough to be trapped by the stretchy skin on the off side, expending all it's enery within the animal. IMO, if it kills the animal shot with it, in a reasonable time frame, then either is fine! The only place I want a pass through, is on dangerous game, so it leaves the best blood trail into the weeds for me to follow, in case it isn't a bang-flop.

Eventhough, there was only one bullet involved, and admittedly, if one is looking for a test of that particular brand,bore size, and weight,fired at the same speed, and range hitting the impala at exactly the same angle following the same track through the body, then it is a very microscopic sample, and not revieling. If you want to know if the bullet killed the impala, then it is a large enough sample.

I voted "NO FAILIER" because THIS bullet did what the shooter wanted, it killed the impala, and was a large enough sample for what was actually asked.

The whole question is silly, because there was no mention of caliber, bullet type, and weight, distance, and speed, or bullet brand, and configuration. The only question this post could answer is did this bullet kill the impala, and the answer to that question is YES!

IMO, I certainly would not want that bullet/chambering on any animal much larger than an impala!

It certainly wasn't a failure on this animal. We don't have enough information to make any reasonable conclusion on how it would act on a larger animal. Looking at the bullet path it may have traveled along and through the spine for some distance and if so then it couuld penetrate much more on a larger animal where it didn't hit the spine.

465H&H

The purpose of a bullet is to kill an animal quickly and cleanly, not to make a nice souvenier. One shot, DRT, end of discussion. Would we be saying the same thing if a nice perfect mushroom was recovered but the animal ran for 5 miles after being shot?

I got a B/F out of a 150 lb Fla hawg with a 125 gr. Federal SJHP at 45 yds from a Ruger SP 101 3". I had a hog run 75 yds after being shot with a 165 gr. Nosler Partition in 30-06. I still prefer the 30-06 for hogs.

I actually did post the bullet type, etc. above. For review, it was a Hornady 250 gr. SST/ML bullet fired from a T/C Encore handgun chambered in 460 S&W Magnum. What I didn't post was the velocity which is a bit over 2,300 fps.

I've also used it on a dozen animals up to the size Zebra and Red Hartebeest and it kills with authority. Nothing I hit with it got away.

This photos shows the exit wound on a European Fallow Deer taken at 60 to 70 yards. The deer went 15 to 20 yards before dieing.

Looks like a good bullet for impala, but I would not use it for eland.

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
"At what point in the animal's demise did the bullet fail?"

Sorry DC, but that has always been a weak definition IMO. The animal can certainly die but the bullet still can fail.

I agree entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Looks like a good bullet for impala, but I would not use it for eland.

+1

Considering the fact it's a bullet designed for muzzle loaders being pushed at 2300 fps, it performed well. A bullet designed for that velocity might keep its jacket on though.

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
"At what point in the animal's demise did the bullet fail?"

At the point when the lead core separated from the jacket.....since you asked!

IMO this is excellent performance on a very small target....IMO it's not a good bullet and failed.

I wouldn't use it for anything.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Looks like a good bullet for impala, but I would not use it for eland.

Concur. I had a similar event with an impala and a 180gr Hornady out of a 300 Weatherby at 80 yards. Lead separation, the recovered bullet weighed 78gr. Great for impala but for eland? I shoot TSXs or Swifts now. jorge