Mitch

Parks are not going to confiscate any clients trophies. We have enough problems with making the top ten list of "most dangerous places" and Most risky places to invest without taking clients trophies! People would hear that trophies are being confiscated in Zimbabwe and it would give the whole place a bad name. In fact we (Parks and Reserve Bank) are trying to ensure that all trophies are exported, and that if there are any problems the operator not the clients are punnished.

The problem with Out of Africa is that they are not, nor ever have been, a registered or licenced company in Zimbabwe. They always go through an intermediary - At present Dawie tells me he is using General C. Chiwenga's company and concession as his "local Partner". OoA theoretically has never conducted one hunt in Zimbabwe, and all the lion over quota in matetsi last year (consiquence of which - see my post on the lion hunting moratorium)were done by EK Safari's and Nyala safaris. Not OoA. Quite clever really as they don't exist and therefore it is difficult to close them down.

Also, bearing in mind who they use as local partners, it is virtually impossible for a parks officer to act against them. Last year they were under Simon Muzenda's (The vice President's) Patronage, this year they have tied in with the comander of the diffence forces.

Bear in mind that this is a country where - on tuesday this week - the president suspended the constitution as the oposition in parliment were going to block an illegal bill being passed, so hey throw one MP in jail and bar the courts from hearing his case and over rule parliment. If you have the right patron you can do anything which is why, sadly, it has come down to co-operating with F&W to prosecute high profile clients.

It is illegal to donate a hunt in Zimbabwe without reserve bank clearance - not easily given, so targeting recipients of donated hunts at SCI is an easy one - we know who they are and that they have breeched Zimbabwe law, the moment they fire the first shot.

Importing stolen property is another and there are cases pending, but it is still a taty concept to pick on a client who didn't know any better. But, as SCI have consistently refused to act, there is no other option to stop the over hunting and the theft of property.

The Kenyan proposal to ban lion hunting in Africa was as a Direct result of OoA activities in Matetsi/Gwaai and the moratorium is in fact a soft out come compared to what it could have been. Last year 25 lion (that we know about) were shot over quota, and possibly as many as 20 the year before. Funny why we had a population crash that visiting researchers could nicely document!

Still OoA are only one of the dodgy operators. With a general state of lawlessness in official circles Zimbabwe has become a land of fast bucks for those South African operators who are prepared to take a chance, deal with the devil and steal what they can. The main abuse at the moment is on PAC elephant. SA operator pops over the border with client, smokes an ele on PAC and then drives back. Client got his ele for $1500, the baboon occupying the farm got $500 and some meat and the SA operator has a happy client, and increased daily rate for his plainsgame as well as a spare grand in his pocket. Know of 20 such PAC hunts, and that is undoutably only the tip of the iceburg, because the SA operators and the "New Farmers" desperatly don't want officials to find out!

For the information of the forum - Out of Africa Adventures was formally banned from operating in Zimbabwe by order of the Misister of Environment and Tourism on the 27th September 2004.

This morning I delivered copies of the initial suspention order and subsiquent banner order the the US embassy for onward transmition to US Fish & Wildlife.

Copies of the order were also lodged with the association if anybody needs to know contact Sally Bown on zatso@mweb.co.zw


Investigations into several other companies who are not registered and pretend to be Agents to the Zimbabwe Authorities and outfitters to the clients are under investigation. Hopefully we will soon have this whole nest of thieves cleaned up.

Hey Ganyana,
I appreciate what you guys are trying to do and just wish Tz was as "eager" to clean up their house as you are.

Referring to other recent thread on subject: Are you(your association) in a position to officially copy in SCI (and other SC chapters) so they maytake action to prevent such outfitters from exhibiting at the convention(s)?
Happy hunting!

Hey numbnuts,
I am glad what is left of sanity up your neck of the woods has finally acted on OOA.
The cynic in me wonders however, how much of this is due to legal/moral/ethical reasons, and how much because "someone" did'nt get a share of the action
Later,
and have a chebuku on me.

Ganyana,

Thanks for facilitating that. I will pester Sally for a paper copy.

jim

I agree Dan! This will force SCI to take our collective heads out of the sand ( or wherever certain people have theirs stuck) and finally address the issue. The problem is still power and money. I am hopefull that this will force the issue. OOA is not the only guilty party here. There are several outfitters I know of and a whole lot others know of that are involved to one degree or another. There are also a number of people who knew what the situation was but chose to ignore it. I am not about pointing fingers and getting into the blame game. However SCI needs to take the moral highground on any issue like this. They may not be able to ban someone or a company until the government acts ( I dont agree that is true either ) but they can certainly not accept "donations" or take paid advertisements until things are sorted out. They can put it under review and put it on hold until investigation is done.



My point to all this is we need to act in such a manner as to have our conduct be above reproach. Ethics may be debatable to some degree but honour is not. The only thing a man has in this life that cant be taken from him is his word. The old saying goes that actions speak louder than words. In this case SCI has said one thing but the collective action is another.



To those who dont know me, I support SCI in 99% of what they do. This is one case where I take exception.

Mabe there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Dont give up on the zimmster there are still big ele in that jess.

Here is what Sally Bown forwarded...jim

----------------------------------------
From: Sally Bown <zatso@mweb.co.zw>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 09:18:04 +0200
To: <Undisclosed Recipients>
Subject: WARNING - OUT OF AFRICA STATUS IN ZIMBABWE



OUT OF AFRICA - STATUS IN ZIMBABWE


The ZATSO office now has on file a copy of a letter from Zimbabwe National Parks Authority to Mr. Dawie Groenewaldt of Out of Africa Safaris stating:

re: HUNTING ACTIVITIES IN GWAAI ICL

As you are aware, there are certain allegations which are being investigated by the Parks and Wildlife Management Authority and the Zimbabwe Republic Police against yourself.

Pending the outcome of these investigations, you are therefore directed to cease all your operations in the Gwaai I.C.L. immediately. This would afford us an opportunity to finalise our investigations.

(signed)
M.Z. Mtsambiwa (Ph.D)
Director-General

NOTE: We remind interested parties that the Association has a website www.soaz.net <http://www.soaz.net> where our registered, licenced members may be found. The public are free to hunt with whom they wish, but the Association will in future only assist those clients who have problems, if they have hunted with our members.


Mrs. S. G. Bown
Administrative Officer

For further information when visiting Zimbabwe contact our Associations:-

Zimbabwe Association of Tour & Safari Operators
Inbound Tour Operators of Zimbabwe
Zimbabwe Professional Hunters & Guides Association

18 Walter Hill Avenue, Eastlea, Harare, Zimbabwe
Tel: 263-4-702402 Fax: 263-4-707306
E-mail: zatso@mweb.co.zw
Website: www.soaz <http://www.soaz> .net

Jim, thanks for the text.

I just received an email tonight from them offering a buffalo hunt in Zimbabwe for $8,500. So what's the deal?

crl

The letter only bans them from Gwaai. So I suspect they are still hunting in other parts of ZIM.

Regards,

TErry

The Second letter makes it clear that they are banned from the whole of Zimbabwe. As a matter of fact they have NEVER been legally allowed to hunt here.

I note though that on Tuesday they were offering hunts on a concession owned by General C. Chiwenga - Consult your list of individuals who American or EU citizens may not do buisness with and go for it!

Also Why pay 8500 for a buff hunt, when the two best operators in Africa who I have ever worked for or visited sell a standard buff hunt for 7500? Even if you go for a tented hiking safari with Chifuti or similar you will get change from 8500.

Amazing that people still seem to resist the thought that one should NOT book with OOA......

I guess it's like telling a child "don't play with fire" and the first thing they do is stick their hand in it

Happy hunting!

Mitch How right you are. There are many good agents who frequent these forums Eg Zimbabwe Wildlife Safaris, Aspen hill, Bill C. Even Ray and many a good operator that one could go direct to if you are happy with the "standard" pakage- Why go to a shark? I always thought people delt with them because they were cheeper than the honest and legitimate guys - but to pay over the top, probably not get your trophies and have a whole industry lining up to give your name to the feds so that they can roast your ass (in this lifetime)for supping with the devil... Now I understand where Jerry Spinger finds his candidates...



It is the same story with the one lad in Tanzania who always sells $4500 buffalo hunts... Until the clients arrive and then find that tthat fee only covers the hunt - no PH, no air transfers, no trophy fees... Flick over the "other" $4500 and the hunt can continue. As far as I can tell he takes 25 clients a year and has done so for the last five years that I know of



Old scottish Proverb - It is morally wrong to let a sucker keep his money

I can give you one reason. I had a lengthy discussion with a potential client who contacted me about a DBG hunt. They were going to book with OoA because a friend had a good hunt with them. No amount of my discussion with him about the shady activities mattered to him at all.

So some of it is word of mouth. Some of it is SCI.

I get very irritated with my own SCI Chapter because OoA is a donator. I do think they donate to everyone. While I am not on the Board I have vehemently voiced my opinion concerning OoA.

Wait until a few American hunters get prosecuted under the Lacey Act and maybe that will stop OoA.

Regards,

Terry

It wont stop OOA but it will really give a rude awakening to those who chose to book with them. A little reality therapy goes a long way. Like Ann I have the same concerns with my chapter. Unfortunately because OOA donates so many hunts it comes back to power and money. All too many people are willing to ignore certain issues because of it.

From S.C.I. website


16-day leopard, Cape buffalo and sable hunt for one hunter and one non-hunter

Generously Donated By: Out Of Africa Adventurous Safaris

Hunt African countries where a hunter can experience a safari complete with optimal accommodation and amenities. Longtime donors and returning exhibitors Janneman and Teressa Groenewald of Out of Africa Adventurous Safaris have donated this exciting 16-day, hunter's choice of method of take hunt for the dangerous Cape buffalo, African leopard and sable. This 1x1 guided safari for one hunter and one non-hunter offers a fantastic hunt for classic trophies in Zimbabwe. Join the ranks of the legendary bushveld hunters as you stalk your dangerous game and seek your elusive sable bull. Schedule hunt with outfitter for open dates February 1- November 30, 2005 or 2006. Hunt includes modern bush camp accommodations, meals, beverages (beer, wine and soft drinks), 1x1 guide service, hunting permits, conservation fees, rifle permit for one rifle, hunting area transportation, field prep. and trophy fees for donated animals. Not included are before/after hunt accommodations, dipping, packing, taxidermy, shipping and gratuities. Transportation during the hunt is on foot and 4x4 vehicle, and the hunter should be prepared for a moderately strenuous trip. Additional hunters cost $850/day; non-hunters cost $200/day. See outfitter for cost of hunt extension or additional trophies. The buyer of this outfitter's donated hunt in 2000 for spiral-horned antelope rated the hunt excellent in every category, commenting that he and his wife were 'treated like royalty' and they will return. Arrival/departure point is Victoria Falls. For more information, contact Janneman or Teressa Groenewald by phone at 913/851-2308.

Donation Value: $25000.00 Donation Number: 16185

Kathi, This just proves what I have been saying for the last two years.

I heard that SCI prevented MS from airing his videos at past shows, why can't they do likewise for OOA?

Ganyana: Are ZATSO/Zim Parks Authority in a position to confiscate client trophies collected from hunts with OOA in the 2004 season? This would result in clients initiating legal proceeding against OOA and hopefully finally "shut them down" for good. Trophies can then be released to those that "unknowingly" hunted through them.

Ganyana, HunterJim: Here is an idea; If sally from ZATSO sends an official letter to SCI informing them that OOA has been illegally operating safaris in Zim and has since been banned from operating and is facing legal proceedings and SCI receives a similar letter from USF&W stating that OOA and some of their clients are under investigation by USF&W, would that work?

In addition the ZATSO booth at the show could put a large poster stating the OOA are banned from operating in ZIM for illegal hunting, poaching, etc.

Ray, Anne, et alia, you must have an association of agents in the US. Can you not write an official letter to SCI requesting they be prevented from exhibiting?

Any member here from IPHA, PHASA, Shikar club, etc that can do the same?

Finally Ngagi, if above fails, can we ask you to stand in front of OOA's stand and scare would be visitors from entering their booth jokes aside there must be something that can be done if SCI does not work....

Is OoA still banned from hunting Zim?

Because: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7173010582

I was on the way to and from ZIm with a nice couple from Colorado who were on their way to Matetsi with OoA. They were nice folks, and I didn't say a thing because it is not my place, but I was concerned that they were going to get screwed. They were on the same flight with me on the way home and got their animals, but they were not pleased. Instead of Matetsi, they were moved without notice to two other areas with lesser camps, lesser game, and "some other problems", which he did not care to discuss with me. I ended up with a client out of the deal, but I hope he gets his trophies from OoA.

When I went through customs in Bulawayo this year and Vic Falls last year they insisted that I have a form from my Safari Company stating that I was hunting with them. Can clients with out this form be restricted from entry unless the form is signed by a registered safari company in Zim? Seems like that will stop things quickly if OoA can't get their clients into the country.

465H&H

Ganyana

It just goes to show, one cam legislate against anything in this world including our own grandmother BUT the only thing we cant legislate against are FOOLS ....

As the old saying goes, there is ONE born every day and they will ignore advice the laws and do their own thing no matter what.

Peter

There is no way to stop them, all they need (must) do is a get a ZIM licensed PH to conduct the hunt. OoA will then "act solely as a booking agent", the Zim PH handles the paperwork and payment to the Zim Government and OoA bills the client through their account in RSA or USA. Of course, OaA will see that their local black operator/concession holder is taken care of - under the table.

Regards,

Terry

If they do get OOA, that is just the tip of the ice berg, but I suspect that the skys will part or it will start raining chickens, before we see any great changes in Zimbabwe, at least for the good....Zim will follow the footsteps of its Northern brethern, hungry people are angry people, then the killing starts...Doesn't anyone see a bit of African history repeating itself, following the same old pattern...

Good post Terry;
Isn't that what the outfitters who post on here do?
Most of the bad press OOA is getting is from other Outfitters. I wonder why?

Hi TJ

It is not just the other outfitters. OoA are banned. They have had a vehicle confiscated this year and ongoing efforts by top parks and tourism industry brass to prevent them operating at all. Unfortunately, it is as Balla Balla says- you can ban them but you cannot stop them in a country where there is little law and order and what happens outside the capital is anyones guess.

OoA, through their new local front company Nyala Safaris, Bought half the hunting in Matetsi Unit 5 this year- the matetsi unit being run by National Parks. When this emerged, they were thrown out, and a very good parks officer Sylven Watchenuka, suspended without pay for allowing them to hunt in a Vehicle that had OoA's logo on the door.

Nyala safaris also attempted to buy half the hunting in Nyakasanga on the auctions but were forced out when parks (belatedly) caught on who was behind it.

To be sure, there are many other south african (and other) operators buying hunts in Zimbabwe and marketing them as though they were their own. That is fine, provided a properly licenced PH conducts the hunts - and they are not poaching - the two things that really upset the locals about OoA.

If one dug a little deeper, the clients that Greg R met up with were almost certainly taken poaching, since OoA were not hunting in Matetsi. Who was the PH and if the lgitimate owner of those animals finds out and sends a complaint to US F&W that leaves the clients open to prosecution in the USA. This is not what Zim needs!!!!

GregR,

That exact same thing has happened to at least one other hunter who booked with OoA this season.

How do we stop this? People who have been on these disastrous hunts have to file negative reports with SCI and Don Causey's The Hunting Report, because they obviously aren't members of AR, or they would have known. As Ganyana points out, maybe filing a negative hunt report then opens up the hunters to further problems with USFW under the Lacey Act, what a sticky situation.

Of all the hunters who I met this year (at Afton Guest House and in the field), not one of them knew about AR.

Regards,

Terry

Perhaps AccurateReloading.com needs a booth at SCI and Dallas SCI. But that is an expensive affair.

Terry, Ganyana, et, al: This thread has given me much food for thought regarding the situation in Zimbabwe and SCI's apparent refusal or inability to deal with this issue. For one thing, I consider myself lucky and I guess smart for maintaining my loyalty with a fellow like John. He used to hunt Matetsi, but bowed out when all the mess started with OOA. As a matter of fact, he was very vocal about it at SCI.
Second, my membership to SCI is about to lapse and I am seriosuly considering not renewing and OoA is but one component of my issues with SCI. In addition to their poor handling of the Out of Africa embroglio, they are turning (or better yet HAVE turned) the convention into a "Vito Corleone" type of affair and making it very difficult for small reputable operators like John to operate, demanding higher and higher prices for floor space. For example, for years he has been sharing a booth with Swainson's but now they are telling him that if he wants to continue, he has to pony up more money or lest he be moved to the "back of the bus" in the convention. When it comes to dealing with SCI on many topics, it is getting as bad as a governemnt bureaucracy. It seems like nobody has the time to talk about anything, unless of course you have a bucketful of cash ready to hand them in the way of contributions, etc. Convention prices are absurd, yeah I know this is a rich man's sport and I'm out of my league, but still the prices are exorbitant. It's really too bad as my wife and I looked forward to attending if for nothing else than for visitng with friends and enjoying the displays. Too bad all of us here on AR can't get organized and start our own booth at SCI and tell it like it is! Thoughts? jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:
I get very irritated with my own SCI Chapter because OoA is a donator. I do think they donate to everyone. While I am not on the Board I have vehemently voiced my opinion concerning OoA.

Anne, they probably donate and put a booth up at Flint since they have some guy from Fenton booking for them. I think he is of some relation.

I talked with OoA about 5 years ago and to be frank, from my conversation with them it was obvious that they were not someone to do business with. 5 minutes on the phone was all it took to turn me off to using them. In turn I know people that have booked with them and have had nothing but good things to say. Those were plains game hunts in RSA though.

I took copies of the Parks letter banning OOA to SCI leadership at the '05 Convention. I thought since I was a Board member I would get a hearing: wrong again moosebreath! There was some noise about an Ethics Committee complaint, but I don't know the outcome (if any). My time on the Board is ended now. What is needed is principals wronged by OOA to lodge official complaints.

As far as floor price at the SCI Convention, that is being driven by the marketplace. The Convention is by far the largest such in North America, and there is I understand a waiting list of outfitters.

I don't have any trouble dealing with the SCI staff, so I am not sure what to respond about that.

jim

quote:

Originally posted by renraf:
Is OoA still banned from hunting Zim?

Because: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7173010582

Why doesn't someone complain to ebay. OOA is not a registered Zim outfitter. No where is mentioned the true registered outfitter. Is this marketing an illegal hunt?

The description reads EXACTLY like the auction adverts.

Perhaps Zim National Parks needs to lodge a formal complaint to the SCI and NRA boards of Directors. I don't think they could ignore that.
465H&H