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One of Us |
We sit here watching (and commiserating) on the slow demise of the outdoor pursuit that is core to our being... In my mind there is a constant death blow being dealt - sort of on lines of "death by a 1000 paper cuts: Commercialization (aka MONEY)...... Stop and think about it - what would you say triggered the start of the downfall in public opinion? Ultimately it is commercialization that is driving the destruction of hunting. All the pathetic FAKE hunting shows (not all but many), social media advertising, gadgets and sponsorships... All driven by.. what else - money... The essence of hunting has always been that it is a pursuit based on honor and adventure, steeped in tradition and respect. A quiet, very personal activity certainly not compatible with the modern "look at me" generations. The hunting industry has always been there, but there was a time when the advertising was more respectful and subdued. I mean is it really necessary to put a picture of an animal on the box of shells that has crosshairs and a cartridge that has exhaust pipes with flames coming out of them? In my opinion - Hunting adventures are best documented in a written format, not a youtube video with blasting rock music in the background. When I get a response from a hunter telling me that their youtube video or facebook posts are just the younger generation's equivalent to Ruark's or Hemmingway's short stories I call bullshit.... Writers spend hours / days / weeks thoughtfully writing an article or story. Ten minutes after a Facebook or Instagram post is made they are looking for the next post to make - the more outrageous the better. If it was just about recording a memory then why are there a dozen "hash tags" at the end?? Oh.. there's that Commercialization aspect again! The "if I make enough hash tags for Sitka maybe I can get on their Pro-Staff and get some free stuff or get to go on hunt without paying".. I agree that we have our rights and not back down to the anti crowd, but it seems to me we are constantly trying to cut our own throats. | ||
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One of Us |
Indeed but their are many that quietly pursue the sport of hunting. Nowadays we have to put up with the world according to influencers! ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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| One of Us |
Well written Scott. | |||
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| Administrator |
For quite sometime now, hunting shows were nothing of the sort. Hollywood grandstanding bullshit, as exemplified by Mark Sullivan! Others followed, adding what they thought was sexy women, who have absolutely no right to be there. Even a few years ago, I remember watching a VHS hunting tape. Someone was trying to shoot a water buffalo somewhere. And a sexy voiced woman adding commentary on what you see. Totally, totally off putting. The current ones are no different! | |||
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| one of us |
I think the issue is pretty complex, but I think the downfall of everything, started with the advent of 24 hour news (CNN and the like), back in the 80's. It became the tool that started changing the mindset of todays generation. As long as there was something driving the news (Gulf war, OJ Simpson trial etc.) there was no problem. Then the news organizations figured out that controversy and sensationalism could be a surrogate for news and also drive ratings. From that point on, our media (and politicians) have looked for ways to create controversy and sensationalism to drive ratings and votes. It's now fallen into a culture of intolerance and selfishness. People look for things they don't agree with and believe they should be "activists" to stop it. They've adopted a "me-first mentality", where only their view matters and they now hoard things for themselves, rather than reach out to help one another. Now you add social media and they all have a megaphone. | |||
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One of Us |
On the other side of the coin, do you think we would have as many hunters as we do today going to Africa without the commercialization? I am not talking about those that could always afford high 5 and 6 figure hunts but the average Joe that saves for a few years to make it to RSA for his dream PG hunt. They do get inspired by the YouTube and Instagram videos and work to make an African hunt happen. | |||
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| One of Us |
I will surprise a few here. I agree with a lot of Scott Powell writes and observations. I disagree that images be them still or video are in themselves a detriment. I agree with his argument that the presentation of those images are harming hunting, and those images are not geared to story telling but hunting. A great example are the broadhead commercials with fake blood splattering against the 4th wall of the tv screen, the broadhead commercials with the Grim Reaper stacking 20 beheaded buck heads on a desk. Anything by Ted Nugget, Razor Dobbs, and Pig Man. The problem is the McDonaldization of hunting consumerism. The magazines will not print more than 2000 word stories. | |||
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| One of Us |
Oh my god yes!! Those broadhead commercials are unbelievable - what better way to be perceived as a bloodthirsty maniac by those who do not understand... Anything by Ted Nugget, Razor Dobbs, and Pig Man - I won't even go there.. what a bunch of idiotic sensationalists! WTF kind of image does a hunting show named "Pig Man" put forth????? Yeah - I've got nothing........ "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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The rhetoric surrounding hunting equipment names and ads is an absolute disaster. I have commented on that for decades now, literally wrote a letter to Bowhunter magazine when I was 17. | |||
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True story.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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One of Us |
Great post. However, I go further. We have provided a very well organized opponent with the material, tactics and verbiage to defeat us. Our demographic will never agree on whats the right approach. Problem is, with the "in your face crowd" they have removed from me and others who believe as I do, our choice to keep it under the radar. Flying under the radar and hiding in the shadows, are two very different things. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Perfect. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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You guys are missing the fact that if there were no money in it, there would be no game outside of reserves Now I suppose what you see on tv could be done in better taste, but that's true of a lot of things in on TV and in our culture in general. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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There is a huge delta between, profits, conservation and fleecing. I have absolutely no issue and full understanding for and of successful conservation through hunting. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Its a sad day and I have no answers, I delt with the hunting public for a number of years some good guys, some bad, and some were con artists and used the blogs to try and ruin the agent, the PH the company..Most of the tV guys wanted a free hunt as did some of the gun scribes, I didn't play the game, and in the long run I met many friends and made a few enemys, but guess that goes with any territory, and I retired with no regrets..I had disgust for the TV junkies the users. but for large majority of clients I found them to be good people, good shots, good hunters and made many friends.. I don't see the hunting business going down the tube any faster than any other business, it is what it is, and all but impossible to get into these days, has a record of failure for young men to get into unfortunately, and I have to say many abused their effort using a booking agent scheme to get free hunts, but thats another story. The tV and enternet has had a pro and con effect on hunting, and that in itself brings on the blows to our beloved pursuit.. Over the years in the business, do I have the answers, nope I have no clue, wish I did, but its a can of worms and too complicated for this old cowboy if I had one wish on these threads it would be that all enjoyed good conversation and fun, we all have the same goals likes and dislikes and we all have a point of view like it or not, its a good thing..As for myself, I enjoy adding whatever I can to this AR thangie...I rarily watch hunting shows as I get aggravated at the hunter in a comfy stand with a tricked out sniper rifle and 20X varible with a machine rest waiting for a broadside shot at a high fenced deer to shoot, my thoughts are I could have killed that deer 30 minutes sooner with a 25-35! I also dislike hunters shooting domestic cows, goats, sheep and calling them dangerous. That said, I turn the future over to you guys, and wish you the best.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I don't possess the answers either. But...I will say this. Had we never made it our mission to be in your face, damn the torpedo's as it were with Hero shots, I fail to see how we'd be in the same place. I've put many pictures up in years past. Back then, it was "cool" didn't seem to offend anyone. Those that didn't care to see them, didn't look. Heck, years ago, in my business, that I owned I had probably over 100 photos up on the walls of my office. I moved offices for a remodel. I then decided to take all the dead stuff off the walls. There's still a Trevor Swanson Bear, Guy Coaleach Leopard and one Andrew Baldry Lion painting on the walls. When asked by my business partner why I removed them, I explained that business is hard enough when everything goes right. Having new customers or vendors first impression in my office/conference room be one of dead animals (regardless of the reality) is taking a financial risk with not only my business but my business partners business, my employees way of making a living, their families and so on. All of which I feel a responsibility to. Yes, My office, my business and my right to do whatever. But, I also need to be aware of the possible consequences of my actions to others. Call it what you will, I call it wisdom and diligence. I know what I've hunted, what I've killed and experiences I've had. I don't need these shots on the walls of my business or digitally all over to prove it to anyone. I'm comfortable in my own skin. (I've left all my bike racing trophies up though  )Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Wow. What a great thread this has been so far. So much truth written here. I agree with about 98% of the entire thread. Nice to know there a lot of hunters here who think alike and have honor among you. I hope sport hunting survives the 21st century. Survival hunting will always survive. | |||
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anyone who thinks letting the anti hunting crowd control all the social media outlets is a good thing is kidding themself. Yes some people dont have the best taste in Pics they post but any dead animal will make them cry and bitch. As far as how people look at me as a hunter if they do business with me. They dont like it they dont need to hire me. I dont shove I hunt in anyones face but will not hide mounts or pictures. No one ever looks at maybe if they show there proud of there choices others would not have as much problems with it. Just maybe other hunters who see there fellow hunters would you use there services more. To even think hiding will help us just makes no sense. I dont know how so many think every one is anti hunting because they dont hunt. Most people I meet who dont hunt could care less that I do. Alot even like the moubts I have all over my house. I will never be ashamed or hide the fact I hunt period. There may be more non hunter but I know there are more hunters then anti hunters. They just make more noise about the fact they are anti hunting why we worry if we hurt there feeling. | |||
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| Administrator |
Let us forget the stupid antis for a minute. What about our own lot who so vehemently object to lion hunting in South Africa? Practically all hunting in South Africa is farm raised. So why object to lions and not wildebeest?? | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes just as bad in my eyes. The anti hunters hate any animal being killed be it raised or from the wild natural born. The jump on the ataack over any news from wild areas of lions or elephants being killed. One is kidding themselves if they think antis are ok with either way of hunting them. If we have not learned yet that giving an inch on any legal hunting they will take a mile we will never learn. | |||
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Simply because Hollywood (Disneyland) has created the situation by putting the Lion in the forefront as their iconic animal ... Lion King. Unfortunately a large percentage of adults never matured brain-wise and they too have become staunch followers of Disney's animal cartoon icons. I firmly believe that Disney's several animated films: Jungle Book, Lion King are the main contributors for getting the ball rolling. | |||
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| One of Us |
I see hunting ethics as a different topic - a topic more so between hunters and within the hunting community. An important topic yes, but not inline with this topic.. This discussion is about how we as a hunting community are perceived by the rest of the world and what drives those perceptions. I think we all agree that bowing to the anti-hunters is not acceptable, but continually adding fuel to the fire is not a winning tactic. There are lots of attorneys on this site - I would ask them: Do you think how you and your client are PERCEIVED by a jury could potentially influence their decision? I know as a veteran IT consultant first appearance is VERY important to building a successful relationship. The image we project through advertising, marketing, "influencers", etc. drives how people PERCEIVE hunting. It it a huge issue that we are constantly having to perform damage control over - the more resources we as a community consume on damage control, the fewer resources we have for informing, educating and combating the falsehoods spread by the anti-hunters.. The reason the antis have attained so much power and influence is they control their MESSAGING better than we do. We all know the truth but the truth is not what is PERCEIVED by the world.... "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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| One of Us |
You are 100% correct! Didn't the hunters burn down the forest in Bambi! Disney has promoted a lot of this stupidity. I really do not care how people hunt as long as its legal. I do not understand why hunters spend so much time criticizing amongst themselves trying to prove that their method of hunting is better than others. Why do they care? Is it ego? I cannot stand watching hunting shows as I believe most are either fake or over blown. Face paint, screaming, 20 minutes of product advertising..... I can choose whether I want to watch it or not. The Anti's do not care about the methods in which way we hunt. Fenced, unfenced makes no difference to them. The undecided non hunter are the ones we need to convince. | |||
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One of Us |
I don't watch much for the hunting TV shows but have enjoyed most of the African stuff. When I can find it. Programs which have featured Buzz and company and several other good safari outfits have been enjoyable. Back when Tony Makris and Johan Calitz were on I really enjoyed that program. I think there are still some well done programs but the advertising line up between segments the channel coughs up leaves a lot to be desired. As far as antis go I just ignore them. ~Ann   | |||
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| One of Us |
I am drawing my views from our European brethren.. I have shifted most of my hunting focus from NA and Africa to Europe and Asia. Partly because I have a thing for Chamois and Ibex but a big part is I enjoy the age-old hunting traditions that the Europeans still practice. Hunting is viewed with honor and respect - even the clothes worn to some degree.. In MY opinion, trying to recruit the younger generations to hunting with a "modern" approach will only backfire. The taking of life - any life, must be pursued with reason and respect for that life... If the killing of an animal living behind a high fenced helps that species to survive, that is a valid reason to take that life - but it should be done with respect and honor.... "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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| one of us |
Folks, I agree with most of the above but you have to consider that our population is becoming more and more urban with no connection for generations of life with the wild world let alone hunting. You tell those people that killing their iconic Disney heroes is wrong and there is no reason for them to think otherwise as nobody has ever told them that hunting as we know it is keeping the wild world populated with critters. I've always lived in a rural area where hunting was commonplace until we move here to Vegas in 2015. I was quite apprehensive about how our houseful of trophies would be perceived by people that came to the house. We have been pleasantly surprised that most people's comments have been "WOW". We had one guy say something under his breath about killing animals but otherwise people have no comment to "please can I look around". We had some folks tell us in reference to African hunting "I didn't know people still did that". They were not anti they just didn't realize folks still hunted Africa. My take away is that the antis and animal rights folks are powerful but not a representation of all urbanites and their lies may not have infected everybody living in the cities yet. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| One of Us |
I agree hunting needs to be presented to the public. However, bad presentation does more harm than even no presentation. We certainly have a lot of bad presentation out there. McDonald’s hunting media; Fast, cheap, loud, low quality, high quantity, and down right gross. | |||
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Wait, but they are still hunters, and we need more hunters, right? You get half the voting public hunting as you said, you think there will be more of this behavior or less? How will having multiples of what is already abhorrent helpful again? | |||
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| One of Us |
Jason - I've pondered long and hard about why we fight among ourselves. My conclusion is that, the act of hunting itself is primal and instinctive to those of us still participating. However, I believe that same instinct brings out certain personality traits that can be off-putting to non's and anti's. Many feel the need to be very verbose and offer information, even too much information at times. Like Mark Young said, if someone is interested, they will ask questions. If they don't ask, I don't offer. Take walking into a fly-shop or worse an archery shop. You ask the purveyor a question. many times another customer will chime in and interrupt the conversation. For some reason, hunting brings out a sort of "KIA" trait, in some. Try walking up to say...Buzz or another popular hunting figure. Try getting a few minutes without him being interrupted, a past client offering up advise or him needing to leave the conversation. I'm very aware of that. When I go to SCI or DSC, I walk past friends booths and don't ever stop. I see they're busy talking to potential clients. In my opinion, past clients should NOT BOTHER THEM. We've done it to ourselves. I know a bunch of you think I "hide" my hunting in the shadows. I don't. I'm just not super public with it. I shot a 49" Buffalo in Tanzania couple years back Wayne Grant wanted me to post it somewhere. I told him, no. But go ahead and put it anywhere you want with you in the picture. Well, somehow the picture made it to IG or something. As I've said, hunting is NOT a good spectator sport. I'm comfortable in my own skin. Racing bicycles gave me a real lesson in ego and humility. I do not feel the need to boast with pictures. That has not always been the case. My Trophy Room is a large, detached affair in my backyard. I have MANY MANY friends and acquaintances that have never once been in there. If they ask, I'll be happy to show them. But it doesn't pay to drag the unwilling. And that is what I believe we are doing by posting stuff, dragging the unwilling into our sport. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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| One of Us |
Two different problems and conversations Baxter. Matt Renelia article does not address social media baffuonary. His complaint is solely, in that article, too many hunters. We need more hunters, and we need this industry to act better. If the industry acted more appropriate, maybe we would have more hunters. | |||
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| one of us |
Guys, There is a market for all those "hunting" shows that we may find repugnant otherwise why would Pig Man etc keep going season after season. A lot of hunters like the bullets and blood flying whoop it up element. Additionally a lot those folks could not care less about international hunting as they don't see it having any bearing on what they do. Hunters are a diverse group and I don't see us all banning together to fight the antis any time soon. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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| One of Us |
Sad to say but I think you are probably right :-( "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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| One of Us |
Mate, you need to revisit the article. I will paste the first two paragraphs. Are the first three sentences not addressing social media buffoonery? __ "Over the past decade, hunters have increasingly publicized pictures and videos of their kills to large audiences on social media. This monumental change in hunting norms occurred gradually and with little thought for its consequences. These consequences are overwhelmingly negative. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for sharing photos of harvested game with friends and family. I strongly support individuals and organizations that use social media to cover issues of importance to the hunting community. But it is time to unfollow hunters who post pictures of dead animals to hundreds, thousands, or even millions of, mostly, strangers. Social media has corrupted our motivations for hunting and is risking the future of the very activity we love so much. Traditionally, we hunters took to the woods for hides, horns, meat, personal enjoyment, and a sense of self-reliance. Now, for the first time in human history, many seek a digital harvest. Rather than butchering meat for the freezer or tanning a hide, these kinds of hunters mostly want photos on their iPhones to beam out across the internet. More than cooking and eating what they shoot, they’re interested in exchanging it for likes and followers — and even corporate sponsorships in gear and dollars." __ I think it's pretty clear social media is top of mind here. | |||
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I would agree with Baxterb - sure seems like their social media experience is more important than any else…. "At least once every human being should have to run for his life - to teach him that milk does not come from the supermarket, that safety does not come from policemen, and that news is not something that happens to other people." - Robert Heinlein | |||
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It's like I wrote that. People argue it (social media) isn't the problem because their very social existence is based on their social media accounts. I know folks here, on AR that wouldn't go hunting afar, if they couldn't share the pictures on-line. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Other than AR. I have no Social Media presence. I do not have Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, flash jump, whatever the next thing is. However, even I know, we cannot survive by hiding. We cannot ignore the main venue folks obtain, disseminate, and consume information or opinion. | |||
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Yeah, and I have cited his Social Media causes too many hunters sections. His contempt for folks who hunt private land with no nuance. Again, feel free to critique folks public behavior. I have in this discussion. However, he really cannot speak nor provides any examples of folks motivation. I do not Condemn Pig Man and Ted Nugget for how they speak. I specifically, condemn them for what they speak. | |||
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| One of Us |
I live in NM which has public draw tags, and private landowner tags. The numbers game is a losing game for those of us who like to hunt. The population in the US keeps rising and there are limited animals to hunt. If the same percentage of people hunt, then there are more and more people vying for limited tags. Your draw odds get worse every year and you get to hunt less and less often. If you are paying for landowner tags, demand keeps increasing and the price keeps rising higher and higher. I do not have the answer to how we will keep our sport going in the future, but recruiting more and more hunters is not the answer. | |||
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Then we will go away and with us the animals and habitat we claim to love. Fact as cited with math by Outdoor Writer in the other tread we are a very small and decreasing part of the citizenry. | |||
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great. if I walked into your office all I would be able to picture in my head is you walking around in bicycle shorts. | |||
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