quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
MacD37 - The Lion, and all the pics here are from the Kafue.

I noticed that later, but the fact is Zambia is a great place to hunt no matter what part you hunt, and in my experience that wildlife is healthy just about everywhere, as long as the country is not under drought conditions, but especially along the rivers!

Agreed Mac and the trophy quality seems to be getting only better. From what we have seen Zambia is now producing some very fine cats and probably on par with some of the great Tanzanian concessions?

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Lovely, lovely lovely! Do you know the skull measurements? And I note the missing mane! Would like to see a frontal pic as well. Regards to Andrew on guiding to a great trophy Lion.

Lionhunter,

We shot trophy Hippo, Puku, and maybe a 16 inch Warthog as bait (which i have a photo of) but those animals are not what the hunt is about.

We shot a good Lion under quite extreme circumstances and that my friend is what hunting is about.

I doubt the skull will ever be measured by me or my client?

Excellent point, if that was my cat I couldn't give a rats arse how many inches or cm's the skull measured.

Fantastic result Andrew.

No Aaron, I was talking about the Warthog! I wish that Lion would have looked like that. That would have been awesome footage, even with the puke! Show is going great. Already planning for the next season. Looks like Australia is on the menu next...

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Thomason:
No Aaron, I was talking about the Warthog! I wish that Lion would have looked like that. That would have been awesome footage, even with the puke! Show is going great. Already planning for the next season. Looks like Australia is on the menu next...

Awesome man, good for you. And yes, that pig was a monster! Every time we showed up, he hauled ass!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Thomason:
No Aaron, I was talking about the Warthog! I wish that Lion would have looked like that. That would have been awesome footage, even with the puke! Show is going great. Already planning for the next season. Looks like Australia is on the menu next...

The only real predator in Oz is the Croc and they are protected, at least until they eat a few more people and maybe then common sense will prevail.

Oh, I nearly forgot, there are lots of sharks that have been known to nibble on the occasional swimmer.

HEY JOHN FREDERICK,

And I, sir, don't give a big rats' ass about your opinion. The issue of measurement has been discussed to death on this forum, and the last time it seems most concurred that there are good reasons to do so. Yet anytime someone mentions measurements, somebody like you finds it compelling to mouth off.

As I have said repeatedly, there are many valid reasons to record measurements, but, while I wish everyone would do, I respect your right to do as you please. Kindly have the courtesy to reciprocate.

HEY MIKE,

How do you really feel??? Agreed though. To each his own.

Brett

Hey Brett,

I just get so-o-o tired of the pot-shoters on here sometimes!

I'll be up there in your country for a week of fishing in a month. Means I will miss the West Coast DRSS get together, but the trip has ben booked since January,

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
HEY JOHN FREDERICK,

And I, sir, don't give a big rats' ass about your opinion. The issue of measurement has been discussed to death on this forum, and the last time it seems most concurred that there are good reasons to do so. Yet anytime someone mentions measurements, somebody like you finds it compelling to mouth off.

As I have said repeatedly, there are many valid reasons to record measurements, but, while I wish everyone would do, I respect your right to do as you please. Kindly have the courtesy to reciprocate.

LH,

I do not think the present measurement system does any justice to a Lion trophy and have often felt that it should be combination of measurements, weight, photographs etc that should decide the quality of Lion. Something that SCI should consider?

For me I am far more interested in photos and other details of good trophies (like your Lion) than reading a list of inches.

Hi Andrew,

I have no quarrel with what you say, although in my own experience I have seen some corollary between head size and body size on large Lion. I by no means have the experience to say that is a constant and it is only anecdotal. I only know that we absolutely need a method to determine size of Lions taken. This then allows us to draw all kinds of suppositions and conclusions regarding environmental impact on Lions.

I certainly agree that Lion weight should be considered. There are variables beyond our control here however, such as when the Lion last drank water, when he last fed and upon what, etc. Also, I have rarely seen an adequate scale in a bush camp, although they are common in ranch hunting - which we don't want to do with Lion under most conditions.

No hunter worth the title wants to take an immature animal of any species. When it comes to Lion, larger usually also means mature; I think you would agree? I have said before that I was offered and refused a legal but immature Lion in Tanzania some 10 years ago on a hunt that cost me $50,000+. I went home without my Lion on that trip but with my ethics intact. Judging the game is not just for the trackers and PH but rather should be a requirement of all experienced African hunters. After 4 to 6 safaris one should have developed some skill in that talent.

BTW, you certainly have some very admirable kitties in your area, but you already know what I think of Zambia!

CHEERS

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
HEY JOHN FREDERICK,

And I, sir, don't give a big rats' ass about your opinion. The issue of measurement has been discussed to death on this forum, and the last time it seems most concurred that there are good reasons to do so. Yet anytime someone mentions measurements, somebody like you finds it compelling to mouth off.


As I have said repeatedly, there are many valid reasons to record measurements, but, while I wish everyone would do, I respect your right to do as you please. Kindly have the courtesy to reciprocate.

HEY BIG BRAVE LION HUNTER,

I said..... "I couldn't give a rats arse what the skull measured", and that's my personal opinion.

What's more, I couldn't give a give a flying fuck what you think. If you want to get your fluffy pants in a knot over how BIG this or that is, go ahead, even while you are standing in front of the mirror.

LH,

Excuse John's french but he is a hunter and has different values to you. I will have to side with John here as this is how I hunt. It is about passion and nothing else.

I don't see that body weight has any relation to anything except when the animal last ate or whether its been mating in recent days or not.

The reason RW & SCI etc all use skull measurement as the standard is that it's the only factor that doesn't change according to the sort of thing I mentioned and/or that can't be altered by human intervention such as stretching etc.

Incidentally, cats are one of the very few things that RW & SCI agree on when it comes to how to set the standard.

To me the most important thing is if the animal was holding a pride with dependent young or not and after that is it a good trophy. I reckon the record books should be treated as an interesting bit of fun but nothing more.

What a brute! I'd really like a crack at that leopard!

The problem with length measurements on all cats is that they stretch.... an easy example is to watch a house cat on a hot day when he stretches out on a cool floor.

Here's an example of how a dead big cat can stretch. Both pics are of the same cat. The first maybe 10 minutes after death and the second about 25 or 30 minutes after death. You can easily see how just holding it up for a short while has made it stretch...... and then consider how that can be abused by the unscrupulous.





To me, Sher Jung got it right when he wrote:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The problem with length measurements on all cats is that they stretch.... an easy example is to watch a house cat on a hot day when he stretches out on a cool floor.

Here's an example of how a dead big cat can stretch. Both pics are of the same cat. The first maybe 10 minutes after death and the second about 25 or 30 minutes after death. You can easily see how just holding it up for a short while has made it stretch...... and then consider how that can be abused by the unscrupulous.





To me, Sher Jung got it right when he wrote:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

Steve - I thought this was about lions? How come you don't have a lion over your shoulders??

I'm to short, old and weak buddy!!

Holding that bloody leopard up damn near nailed me into the ground let alone a lion!!

I take my hat off to any bugger that can put a lion on his shoulders and in fact I try to avoid holding onto any animal like that because of the ticks!

This is the best way to do it!

Steve,
Did you weigh that cat?

No mate I've never weighed a cat in my life because of the reasons I've mentioned. About the only thing I can tell you about the weight is that it was helluva heavy.

I do fairly often measure their overall length out of curiosity but as I always use sizing marks on the bait tree, I always know if it's a legal length before I tell the client to shoot anyway.

I do however, always measure the skull and FWIW can also tell you that one was the second largest leopard I've ever taken in 30 years.

...... and incidentally, I have a leopard permit for that same area available for this year. http://www.kuduland.com/hunting-in-botswana.htm

I don`t know who Sher Jung is/was but the quote of his you use Steve is bang on 100% right in my opinion.
BTW Very nice Lion and Nice Leopard too Steve

John,

Sher Jung was a tiger hunter in India back in the 1940/50s or so and he wrote a great book called Tryst With Tigers. Well worth a read even if it is about India and not Africa.

Here it is: http://www.abebooks.com/servle...+with+tigers&x=0&y=0