The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting For All The SCI Inner Circle Prospective Members!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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We invite you to a conservation protected hunt of one of the worlds most feared predators and experience the thrill of hunting the "King of the Jungle". Well since it is conservation protected, I don't see why not?  Regards, Terry  Msasi haogopi mwiba [A hunter is not afraid of thorns] | |||
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Ther is something for everyone in this world! I've heard the lions "come out" of Botswana and "if you're lucky" you will get a cahnce at one.......  I notice that under the "certification" section, the so-called Department of agriculture....... link doesn't work! Shameful. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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It's times like this that I really miss Ray. I'm sure he would find a way to argue that this was not a canned hunt.  BOWHUNR NEVER BOOK A HUNT WITH JEFF BLAIR AT BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING! | |||
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Saeed, I am curious, what does this website have to do with innner circle of SCI as title suggests. Regards, York, SC | |||
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My intention is not to speak for Saeed but I believe his comment was edged towards SCI's allowing high fence animals into their record books. I say this as a proud member of the Lehigh Valley Chapter of SCI. SCI does more for the sport of hunting internationally than anyother Org I am aware of. | |||
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Saeed, You wrecked my evening, maybe my night. I am bitterly angry. No thanks.. I am collecting any datas about canned hunts and canned trophies, about shooting in micro-farms, enclosures and such... Later I'll ask for more datas. I think nothing of SCI, J B de Runz Be careful when blindly following the masses ... generally the "m" is silent | |||
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cats has answered your question. Personally, I prefer to hunt for the sake of hunting, rather than to "collect" trophies. SCI and their inner circles are the exact opposite. | |||
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Unreal. Those lions shouldn't be hunted. They should be adopted! Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Saeed I am not a member of SCI's Inner Circle though I am a member of SCI. Making no excuse for some of their award programs. I have never found any org. that I agree with 100% of the time. No more than I agree with my Gov't's idea of how best to run this country I choose to live in. No more than i agree 100% of the time with my own wife. But I do appreciate and support them for the effort they make in keeping hunting legal thruout the world. Would I shoot a lion in a high fenced situation? No I wouldn't. Cats | |||
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Saeed, Now I know why I like you. I haven't been able to figure you out, but I think I now understand why you do what you do. Thanks | |||
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There so Cute.....Hey and there certified too. Proper documentation to shoot one inside a fence. Check out the link below. http://www.benkoe.co.za/Images/Certificate.TIF Mink and Wall Tents don't go together. Especially when you are sleeping in the Wall Tent. DRSS .470 & .500 | |||
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a pure abomination. J B de Runz Be careful when blindly following the masses ... generally the "m" is silent | |||
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I am a Life Member of SCI, and proud of it. I just do not like some of things they do. Like making "bigger is better" as the holy grail of hunting. Or supporting shady chracters in the hunting industry just because they "donate" to SCI. | |||
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Saeed  the first round is on me should our trails cross. TLM | |||
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Rated as one of the largest lion breeding projects in South Africa???? Do they wait till after they feed them or shoot them on the way to their evening meal. Crap Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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This poor guy looks like he even comes pre-stuffed.  | |||
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In the middle 70's I had a landlady in Germany that told me she missed Hitler. The streets were safer than. Of course she wasn't Jewish. The good, safe streets, outweighed the bad that we all know.Saeed, both you and cats are members of SCI, yet SCI supports canned hunts and shady characters, (shady to me implies dishonesty, breaking the law??). The example cat used of not agreeing with his wife 100% of the time is fine . I don't agree with my wife all the time, but not over core moral, integrity kinds of issues. I knew a guy whose wife was a stripper and a prostitute, but for him the so called good outweighed her lifestyle choices. As clear as I'm trying to be, I'm afraid this is coming across poorly and judgemental. When does the bad finally outweigh the good an organization does? Because SCI supports hunting that we all love, they then have carte blanche? I have thought seriously of joining SCI, but the canned hunts, the glossy awards for shooting fish in a barrel, and the support of those "shady" characters that donate enough money, are tough obstacles to crawl over. "Be kind and polite to everyone you meet. But have a plan on how to kill them." From an old Marine. | |||
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I think there are two parallel SCI groups, divided about 90% - 10%. Perhaps even 95% - 5% The big group are the "Chapter Grunts". The little group is the "Inner Circle" I'm a Life Member and very much a Chapter Grunt. I've never been to Reno and probably never will. I'm simply not into tuxedos and/or hunting with a checkbook in one hand and a record book in the other. I will not try to understand or explain WTF is going on with this OoA thing or some of the other dirty little secrets that aren't really that secret. I can't do much about it and I certainly don't like it. But I will continue to do what positive things I can for the Chapter I belong to. | |||
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Matt: Good for you, we are on common ground. Step back and take a look at the type of poster whom speaks ill of SCI on this board. This act alone says volumes about them. Let me ask this question to them: What have they done other than to serve their very own interests in the sport? Unfortunately there is always this element of human nature in any org. ie., they'll scream bloody murder about Mad Bob and his cohorts in Zim. but help in supporting this regime by going there to hunt elephants,lions,etc because Zim. still offers the cheapest rates as a rule for DG hunting. | |||
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cats, Why not ask the poster? I was asking a sincere question that Matt answered, which I very much appreciate. Unfortunately if someone has a question, again sincere, if its not one you are comfortable with, maligning that person seems to be a common internet tactic. Matts response told me the good in the organization and why he was a member. cats your personal attack? It doesn't matter, but I have served alot in hunting orgs, especially bowhunting, state and local. All those orgs were very much against canned hunting. No, I've never hunted Zimbawe. Matt, again thank you for answering an honest question. cats, if open questioning is discouraged? As a new member to this forum and with so many SCI members here I thought this is the best place to ask those members why they supported SCI in spite of their voiced concerns on these very forums. I've looked seriously at joining, I just had a couple of things holding me back which I explained. "Be kind and polite to everyone you meet. But have a plan on how to kill them." From an old Marine. | |||
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Excuse me "new member" Henry but what part of the quote above was directed as a personal attack towards you? Reread to whom i addressed it to..ok nice and S.L.O.W ..... MATT | |||
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Matt, thanks for a clear answer. Some of us do not live anywhere near a SCI chapter so we know just what we read here. Henry wrote I have thought seriously of joining SCI, but the canned hunts, the glossy awards for shooting fish in a barrel, and the support of those "shady" characters that donate enough money, are tough obstacles to crawl over. This is true of many of us but as Henry noted if we Question SCI then we are attacted and it dose not make me want to run down and sign up. Matt, thanks again Be kind and polite to everyone you meet. But have a plan on how to kill them." From and old Marine sounds like Gunner Embesi to name one. Gene Semper Fi WE BAND OF BUBBAS STC Hunting Club | |||
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That area area of SA must be canned Lion hunting central. In the current issue of African Hunter Magazine they profile Esperance Safaris. Among the calims made is the following; "Nowadays the hunter can again follow the saucer-sized paw prints across the red sands in pursuit of a geat maned male. Not naturally occurring lions, for the practicalities of game ranching prevent that, but animals released from the breeding enclosures onto the full extent of the property at least four days prior to a hunt." If you happen to get there before me, don't wait for me, I'll catch up - some time - somewhere - somewhere else. TerryR | |||
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invader66/Gene, Thanks much for your response....I'm glad you saw what the purpose of my posts were. The closest SCI chapter to me is over 3 hours away. I heard a friend quote an old Marine friend of his and have loved it ever since; hence using it at the bottom of my posts. Never military myself, but proud as hell of my father who spent 20 years as a pilot in the Army, both fixed wing and rotary, with almost 1100 hours of combat flying time in Viet Nam. cats, good luck to you. "Be kind and polite to everyone you meet. But have a plan on how to kill them." From an old Marine. | |||
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They could have at least cleaned up the fence in the background where the four males are together. Too bad there are so few places where you could actually see lions like these truely still wild and uninfluenced by humans. | |||
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So are we now to believe, that since Saeed owns a major share of African Hunter Magazine, that he now endorses canned hunts for Lions? | |||
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Buck, I am not an SCI member. I have studied their charter to a limited extent and believe I have a fair understanding of what they do. I never saw any reference or apprearance that they support or approve of "canned" hunts. They state they are for "ethical hunting" by ethical hunters. The rub is how to define ethical. Hunting behind a high fence can be ethical. It may not suit all of us, but it can be ethical. Overall, SCI is an organization made up of hunters. The goal of the trophy measurement system and the various awards it to focus the "honor" of being a good/great hunter (defined as taking high scoring trophies from many places in an ethical manner) with awards. The key here is the focus on the hunter, not so much on the animal. The difference between SCI and Rowland and Ward or Boone and Crockett is that the latter groups focus on the animal, not the hunter. Membership in B&C is limited to hunters that have certain qualifications. Rowland and Ward is a listing service/measurement service that produces a guide for what constitutes unusually large horns/skulls on game animals. The comments about SCI holding ethics hearings on various outfitters and how the local chapter raise money via donated hunts is an area that SCI is "caught in the middle". Companies donate hunts to get more business. These are not "free" hunts or the outfitters would go out of business. Yes, the hunter pays SCI a bid, but they usually end up adding to the hunt and pay a substantial amount of extra money when they go. It is like when you win a "free vacation or free cruise" via a mass mailing or one of those "time share condo" outfits. It is never, never free. Nothing is. SCI raises money to carry out its operations and pay its people. NRA does that as do every other non-profit out there. SCI is not a screener for ethical companies - you and I are. If an outfit is unethical, don't bid, don't do business with them. They will get the message soon enough. Again, I am not an SCI member, I may join someday but for now I am on the fence as to whether I truly support what they are all about. | |||
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Mickey, I like the magazine and was unaware that Saeed may or may not own part of it. Are you suggesting that if he owns part of a magazine that he supports one of the advertisers? That is a stretch. I own shares in several mutual funds and I am sure that one of the funds owns stock in something I do not like or support - so does that infer that I support that activity of that company? I do not think so. Anyway, Saeed has stated his position on canned hunts. From the various videos I have seen him in, I would say he supports fair chase and ethical hunting. | |||
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Same here! So I make the same offer cats did. First round is on me . . . even if it's the world's finest coffee. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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I'm a long time member of SCI, and I too, think they have done more to support hunting than any group ever. I have never been to Reno, and have no desire to ever go there. SCI is a very large organization, and like any large gathering, there will be those people with which you will not agree, and policies you disagree with. I certainly don't agree with everything they do, and some of the people at the top are typical "LOOK AT WHAT I CAN BUY" types that I hate! That doesn't mean, however, that SCI is bad, because 95% of the members are plain old folks that like to hunt, and enjoy the fact that they have SCI in their corner world wide! The idea that because there is a high fence around a private property, automaticlly makes it a "CANNED HUNTING" property, simply shows ignorance. Make no mistake, I, and most would consider the LION thing, that started this, to be a "CANNED HUNT", not as much because of the fence, but because these lions seem to be so used to people, being close by. As someone said, they should be adopted, not hunted! The only thing that even makes this a risk at all is,to the "HUNTER" is, even a tame lion can kill you if you don't do your shooting properly. If the fenced area is too small,compounds that little risk,but still canned, IMO. These animals seem to be exactly like the lion in Kruger park, and the Angorogoro Crater, and all that is missing is the Zebra painted buses full of tree huggers! However, the fence is not what makes a canned hunt, it is the way the animals are handled from birth, to the assignment to a paying, so-called, "HUNTER" who wants absolute guarintees for his MONEY! The picking out your lion from a mug-book, then driveing out and shooting him,is not hunting, any more than a rancher driving you out to his pasture to shoot one of his beef, he is selling you, for money. Sort of like going the meat market, and buying meat , only killing it yourself.  I, like others here, want to hunt on my feet, and I couldn't care less about anyone's book, or someone else's opinion of my hunting. I have hunted fenced areas, and the hunts I did were certainly not what I would call canned. When you hump hills that would wind an olympic athlete, and crawl through bush so tight you can't see ten feet in front of you, to get a shot at an animal that can take one step, and you will never see him again,because he can avoid you for a month inside that fence, it ain't canned friend. The highth of the border fence makes little difference,if those conditions exist. I can guarintee you, I have hunted far less cover, and escape routed land in open African concessions, than in a couple of fenced ranches I've hunted. I will say I hunted these places on foot, and with an iron sighted double rifle, and finding the right animal, instead of just any animal, in a 1000 acre fenced area that has pleanty of natural water, food, cover, and escape routes into think cover that would hide a bull elephant. This particular 1000 acres, if flattened out, would have 3,000 acres of surface area. Many of the private hunting ranches in RSA have over 1,000,000 acres behind fence. If that makes any difference to anyone other than me! The fact that SCI has a book for fenced game ranch hunting is not an indication they support real canned hunting! CANNED HUNTING is an ANIMAL RIGHTS catch phrase,that includes ALL HUNTING, if you listen to them talk amoung themselves. The records for game ranch hunting, are kept seperate from other records,as a seperate catagory. Some people are simply collectors, and I don't consider them to be hunters simply because they have a large trophy room full of records. That opinion of these guys has less to do with the where they hunt, as it does their reasons for hunting. IMO, those guys need to hunt zoos, and stay out of the real hunting places! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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 Firstly, most of those who are critical of SCI here on AR have good reason to be, from what has been exposed about the many downsides of SCI. Only the ignorant refuse to admit what an unethical moneymachine SCI has become. I for one used to me a member, but dropped it a few years ago when I became more aware of the way SCI operates. Secondly, anyone and everyone with a minimum of knowledge about Zimbabwe is critical of Mugabe. But it seems that it is often those with a bit more than average knowledge who actually hunt there. And this isn't only because it is "cheap". Zimbabwe has just as good hunting, if not better, than many other destinations. Hunting in Zim is also the only way that the hunting industry there will survive, which in turn is the only way that the animals in Zimbabwe (or elsewhere) will survive in the longrun. We all know what usually happens in countrys where tourist hunting stops: animals are poached until they reach the brink of extinction. So although the goverenment of Zimbabwe gets some income from the tourist hunter, this is actually helping to save animals due to the money put into the Zim hunting industry. And not just in theory, as it seems SCI does a lot. Finally, and an important factor in my opinion is that most of the money goes to support the hardworking PHs and their families in a country that is becoming harder and harder to survive in. This money of course also goes to the many hardworking trackers, drivers, cooks etc etc in the hunting industy, who thus support their respective families. I've hunted twice in Zim, and will gladly do so again, knowing that my money will actually be doing some genuine good. Is this self serving? Yes, all tourist hunting is self serving, be it in Zim or anywhere else. But there is more to it when you look at the bigger picture... | |||
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Dogcat First, it wasn't an advertisement but an article. Big Difference. Secondly. Many here have bashed SCI because they alow members to hunt in enclosure's. Would these people have all members of all organizations given the heave ho for what they do that does not invlolve the organizaion? No one has mentioned that these Lions cannot be put in any Record book. RSA Lions are not allowed in the SCI Book because they are considered canned by SCI. SCI has a 'Code of Ethics'. Not all may agree with it but it is more than other Hunting Groups have and SCI does, at least, attempt to police their members. Again, more than any other hunting Organization does. Nowhere can anyone show that the SCI leadership has ever endorsed shooting in pens. Does it happen? Yes. Is it always caught? No. What do some of you expect? My point in bringing Saeed's involvement with an article in African Hunter makes as much sense as blaming SCI for the actions of some people who are members. Or in blaming the NRA because a member robbed a grocery store. Saeed's attempt to tie SCI into this is unfortunate and as applicable as my tieing him into African Hunter publishing an article encourageing 'canned' Lion Hunting. | |||
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dogcat, thanks for your post, I appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts. MacD37, Your well thought out response is exactly what I was looking for. THANK YOU! You gave straight forward reasons for your membership in SCI and more importantly your hunting values. I couldn't disagree with a thing you said. "Be kind and polite to everyone you meet. But have a plan on how to kill them." From an old Marine. | |||
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As the retired editor of the SCI Record Book, an SCI life member, and the author of the just-released "The History of SCI," I can assure you that "canned lion hunting" has never been endorsed or encouraged by SCI. When we learned many years ago what unscrupulous outfitters in South Africa and Namibia were doing the cllub removed ALL lions from those countries from its record book and published this statement: "An unfortunat consequence is the set up or "canned" lion hunt, in which a captive lion is presented to an unsuspecting client. (Such a "hunt" can be impossible for the client to detect if properly orchestrated.) Since the beginning, SCI has had a policy against accepting set up lions for the Record book, and has never knowingly done so." Removing all South African and Namibian lions from the book brought angry letters and calls from members who were certain their lions were truly "wild" even though they had shot them on farms near such unlikely places as Port Elizabeth, Cape Town and Kimberley. Incidentally, there may be some but I personally know of no major hunting area in South Africa that is not behind wire. That does not mean that all hunting in that country is "canned." Incidentally, the lion shown with my posts was taken in Zambia in 1994. I would not hunt a lion anywhere in South Africa, even today. Bill Quimby | |||
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MacD37, you have it exactly right.  _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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I agree with Cats, MacD37, and others that have posted support for SCI. I personally believe that SCI has done more than any other organization in the world to to protect and to promote hunting. On the down side, I think they have been a major influence on the rising costs of big game hunting. Unfortunately, to achieve status in SCI's Inner Circles and Levels of Achievement, you necessarily don't have to be a good hunter, you just have to be able to pay for it. Hence the growth of high fences and canned hunts. I think this is what Saeed was getting at when he started this thread. I am a proud member of SCI and the NRA. I have been for over 25 years. When I first joined the NRA, new members needed to be sponsered. I was sponsered by a fellow US Army officer. I am not a chapter member of either. I'm not a "meeting" type person, and I definately am not a tuxedo type person. As any organization grows, its membership gets more and more diverse. Look at AR. We are all here because of our interest in wildlife, hunting and shooting. Do we all agree? Hardly. These threads THRIVE on dissagreement. Read the post by Bill Quimby. He probably knows the inner workings of SCI better than any of us. SCI does not have a screening process for becoming a member. Unfortunately, there is always a few "bad apples" in every bushel. Almost every issue of "Safari Times" lists a member that was found to be a "bad apple" and whose membership was terminated. SCI does police itself when ethical violations are discovered. I also think that EVERY gun owner and EVERY hunter should belong to both SCI and the NRA. They do WAY more to SAVE and to PROTECT our RIGHTS to hunt and to own guns than they do bad. Support the parts of their organization that you believe in, and voice your opinions to their leadership to the parts that you disagree with. NRA Endowment Life Member | |||
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Folks, I think Matt has said it as well as anyone can. I am proud to call Matt my friend. He is my friend and hunting partner on many an adventure. He is also one of the hardest working guys I know not just for the local chapter of SCI but hunting and conservation in general. This guy has the highest ethics of anyone I know and he backs it up with hard work. I can tell you he has given many hours of hard work and money out of his own pocket when needed to support his ideals. Many of us believe as he does. I have said it before and I will say it again. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. Do something to change the situation other than just make complaints. If not SCI then find some other organization. Just so nobody thinks I am talking out both sides of my mouth, I have roughly 50 animals that score high in the book but havent bothered to register one of them. Before anyone asks, no none of them were taken behind fences unless you count 10,000 hectares in RSA for some of the plains game. Does that mean I have a problem with anyone who does? Absolutely not. I might even put a few in some day. However it really isnt important to me in and of itself. Just because there are those few who would abuse the system is no reason to condemn the whole organization. As Matt said the majority of us are chapter grunts trying to do the right thing. I challenge all of you again to work to making changes if you dont like it. Saeed, this includes you my friend as with your considerable influence you can bring much attention to the issue. Those of you like 500 grains (sorry Dan but I had to use someone as an example) who just cant bring themselves to join the organization can certainly embark on a letter writing campaign to make their point known. In the meantime get involved somwhere. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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Mike I think 500grains belongs to SCI. He mentioned being at the Convention. | |||
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If that is the case I stand corrected. Guess I will have to find someone else to use for my badboy example. LOL! Mickey, I would like to hear your opinion of the inner circle thing. I personally see nothing wrong with it as long as it does not become the only focus to the hunting. I just dont have a need to use it to validate what I already enjoy. (Obviously I am not talking about canned hunting) Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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