Land of Kilimanjaro, playground for the likes of Selous, Roosevelt, Ruark, Hemmingway, Hunter, et al. Where else can a hunter shoot three buffalo, lion, leopard and elephant all on a single 21 day hunt?
If there is truly a dream safari land, Tanzania is it! Safari in style, stay in traditional East African accomodations, this is where it all began. No fences, no war vets, no roads. Just miles upon miles of nothing but bloody Africa in all of it's original splendor, repleat with game! Game like you've never imagined or will see anywhere else.
Is this an accurate description?

DITTO - DB!! Too much $$$$. If you are keeping track of trophy class animals, many (if not most) still come from Zim and RSA at a bargain over Tanzania! However, IF I were after ele, Tanzania would be the place.

DB,
Not necessairly I just sold 3 16 day hunts (14 days actual hunting) with 21 day licenses, that allows you 3 Buff, elephant, Lion Leopard, one of everything in Tanzania, the hunt included Air charter, dip and pack, the works including the trophy fee on a Lion and a Buffalo....$23,900. considering whats offered it would cost you $50,000 in Zimbabwe give or take a litte.....You gotta shop Bill...these 3 hunts were offered on HA before I advertised it...no more left, and it'll never be repeated because all cats will go to 21 days and no more deals will be forthcomming from the Tanz. gov...

I still have the 7 day Buffalo hunts for $6850. 2x1 , or $9750 for 2 Buffalo each..ALL INCLUSIVE except $150 per rifle or you can use ours at no charge. Tips are optional...This hunt normally includes about 7 head of plainsgame for trophy fees and 2 hunters can share them. Thats pretty tough to beat in Zimbabwe, I can't do it....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ditto Againo - They've got us by the short hairs and they know it. They have the goods and the richer hunters of the world continue to patronize them, perpetuating a status quo based on the almighty dollar.

There's something wrong when charter flights cost as much as your airline tickets from the U.S. If it is so distinctly lacking in infrastructure then why all the government fees? What have they got to maintain?

I want to hunt there so bad I can taste it.
I've been avoiding doing so out of sheer anger for years now. Check the prices, especially of some the more established concerns. Outright theivery is what it is and I resent most of all the well heeled blokes coming back and telling us "Oh, but there's no place like Tanzania, you simply must hunt Tanzania, the prices are not so bad, really" Bullschwantz! The wealthy hunters of the world and the booking agents should support the rank and file and starve them out with a 3 year boycott. Insatiable greed is preventing many fine men from realizing their dreams.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-11-2001).]

All I can say is, if I were restricted to hunting in only one African country or else I was allowed only one full-blown safari for the rest of my life, the country I'd choose to hunt in would be Tanzania - no question about it.

AD

If Tanzania wasn't expensive, all of us white trash would be there and it wouldn't be any good anymore. Gives you something to yearn for anyway.

Simply the law of supply and demand in operation. They're charging what the market will bear. I wish I was wealthy enough so I could go also but it's not going to happen.
-BOB

I'm curious about the statement that more trophy class animals come from Zim and RSA than from Tanzania.
What species are you referring to? I know it can't be East African Greater Kudu, Masai Bushbuck, Situtunga, Grants, Roberts or Thompson's gazelle, Gerenuk, Lesser Kudu, several varieties of Hartebeast, Roan, Lion, Buffalo, etc, because most of these species do not inhabit Zim or RSA.
Sable, Eland, warthog and a few others are common to both areas but not very many. Judging from the photos I've seen of several leopards taken in the Mt. Meru area of TZ the last several years I would highly doubt the southern leopards have any advantage. I know the buffalo run bigger on average in East Africa, and the lions are generally better maned as well.
Quality costs. The cost of operating in Tanzania is very high because supplies are expensive and transporting them to various camps is too. Area lease fees are exhorbitant, as are charter costs. Reminds me of Alaska.
You think if all of the well heeled sportsman quit going there the costs will come down? You're wrong. All that will accomplish is the closure of hunting at best. The worst case scenario is what happened to the Loliondo area that Cotton Gordon used to operate. When his lease expired he got outbid significantly by a private group of "sportsmen" who paid a "King's ransom" for the area and it's quota. Nobody operates that area to this day. Guys, the well to do hunters are the ones keeping places like Tanzaia and Botswana open, so the rest of us can at least dream about hunting there!

JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT IT WOULD COST TO SHOOT ONE BUFFALO AND A COUPLE OF COMMON GAME IN TANZANIA? Is it true that some areas are huntable from Dar Esalam without a charter? Lets say a 10 day hunt with no dip and pack just pictures but in a classic area like the selous. Is it true that there are no people in the selous? So many questions can anybody help me out? thanks.

Mamba,

If you look at Ray's post above, he has some prices for a 2X1 safari in the Selous.

Based on what I have seen, you have to charter out of Dar Es Salaam to the Selous. There are no hunting concessions within a reasonable drive from Dar Es Salaam. I have seen several hunts out of Arusha which don't require a charter to Masailand.

Yes, there are no people in the Selous Game Reserve. Thanks to the tsetse fly and the former park warden named Ionides. The Selous is the size of Switzerland and the hunting blocks are 400 to 600 square miles in size.

Most of the outfitters I have seen don't offer 10 day hunts in the Selous. 7, 16 or 21 day hunts are pretty standard.

For a 7 day 1X1 hunt, plan on spending about $9,500 (minus $1,000 if you don't pay dip and pack fees, if the outfitter allows this) plus air charters (around $2,000) plus gratuities (approximately $750). This includes the trophy fee for the first buffalo.

Add trophy fees: 2nd Buffalo $800, Zebra $650, Nyassa Wildebeest $320, Warthog $385 and Lichtenstein's Wildbebest $370 (Total Trophy Fees $2,585).

Total cost of $14,835. [$1,000 less if you can delete the dip and pack fee].

This is a general estimate. I'm sure you can find it a little cheaper. But this should give you a ballpark figure.

You will have to add airfare and hotel costs.

Be advised, some outfitters 7 day hunts are actually 5 hunting days (the day you arrive and the day you depart are counted as hunting days). Other outfitters don't count the arrival and departure days and you get 7 full days of hunting.

Regards,

Terry

[This message has been edited by T.Carr (edited 07-12-2001).]

Most safari companies suggest you charter to the Selous from Dar, however, some do offer to drive you in. They estimate it to be 6 hours plus depending on where you go.

JohnS - "You think if all of the well heeled sportsman quit going there the costs will come down? You're wrong".

I optimistically disagree. Tanzania has few substantive sources of revenue, generally, and fewer still exceeding hunting related dollars. Just my opinion at a glance, sir.
I see these prices increasing annually with apparent impunity and the % of "average" income hunters who can swing a hunt of decent duration there is dropping exponentially. Aside from short "Buffalo Specials", it is difficult, indeed. The principles of "supply and demand" acknowledged, I say there is real potential for the lowering of prices which would soon be recovered and surpassed in sheer volume.
Most every fellow interested in African hunting holds Tanzania dear and would jump at the opportunity the moderation of prices would provide. A healthier economic climate would result, in my view.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-12-2001).]

I can assure you the prices will not come down, I know where the profit margin lies in Tanzania, and if they came down, all the PH's would pack up and leave, go home to zimbabwe...and as a matter of fact, they make only a pitence now...

The logistics of setting up a hunting camp in Tanzania are just short of a horror tale.
The cost of fuel is unbeliveable as is the cost of everything else..I wouldn't do it for what an African PH makes, Every known one to retire to the good life, I think not....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I agree with DB Bill, it is clients like that guy and his son that ruin the trip for themselves as well as the PH.

The Law of SUPPLY AND DEMAND will rule, no matter what, be it game in Tanzania or South Africa, or Pepsi at Wal Mart.

If all of us could afford to go there, there would be no game to shoot in a very short time.

Have you ever thought of the life of a PH in Tanzania?

I know a couple guys very well, and they go to camp the end of June and are lucky to be back out by Christmas.

They get very lonesome.

They see a different set of clients every 3-4 weeks, and either wishes the one he just had would never leave, or all to often, can't wait for the one he has to leave.

Being cooped up with someone you have never met before, who expects you to kiss his a*** every time he turns around, smokes too much, swears too much, drinks the place dry, and can't hit a Bull in Butt at 50 yards.

That life would not be for me. I love Africa, and can't wait to go back, but the life of a PH, you can have. They are the most over worked and under paid people I know.

I do agree, that the cost of Air Charters does seem quite high.

------------------
May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

Bill, your story makes me ill. Here you have some spoiled SOB who had a fantastic safari, and yet still isn't satisfied. He doesn't even realize what he had. And to think, there a scores of guys who would love every minute of such a safari, treasure every experience, both good and bad, and yet will never get to go because of finances! Well I guess nobody said the world was fair....

I've got a real adversion to people with such attitudes. I guess I've been in too many camps that contained crybaby clients that are never happy with anything. How the PH's put up with such nonsense is beyond my conprehension.

I'd like to get that clown on the end of a fork cleaning out horsestalls for a day or two.........!

AD

I too am somewhat disgruntled over the high fees of Tanzania. But much of it is sheer jealousy for the hunters that can afford to go over and spend the money required. I'm in the same boat as many of you; Tanzania remains a dream that may or may not ever be realized.
Ray's buffalo hunts sure are getting tempting, but I am afraid that a 7 day foray into paradise will ruin me forever. Then my modest hunts to RSA will never be the same.

Great thread though, very interesting and informative.

FN

I HAD a personal friend that went on a 7 day Buff hunt with my Safari Co. and he wanted a "big buffalo" so I talked my favorite PH into taking him up to the Masai....they saw 6 Buffalo in the 7 days, the smallest was about 40" and he killed a 44" bull, and wounded a few plainsgame and got into an argument with the game scout who wanted him to pay half the trophy fee for the wounded animal, so the game scout told him to pay it all or suffer the consequence..Had he kept his mouth shut he wouldn't have had to pay anything...He also went on a 10 day plainsgame, after that to hunt at Chinoyi where he sought and got credit for some plainsgame he killed. He got the credit because of our friendship...He killed a 57" Kudu, a record class Eland and some really good stuff including a 40" Sable....

He also lost a days hunt due to flight connections in Dar Es Salaam...

When he got back, he bitched about not seeing enough Buffalo in Masailand, which you never see many unless the park water drys up, but the ones you see are big old dugga boys escaping the cows and calves, the bachlor bulls.. He didn't like his own hunting partner and got crosswise with him, He cheated us out of all the trophy fees ( $3000. )he owed us and based it over that one lost day.

I sent him his trophys and told him the hunt was on us, but never to call me again if he valued his health, and I ment that....

There are some real duzys out there when it comes to the almighty dollar, and they will go to any extreme to cheat you out of a penny....The PH's work like hell for peanuts and never even make a decent living...Why anyone would cheat them is beyound me.

Fortunatly these things happen only rarly, about 3 or 4 times in my career, but when they do it really gets to you and when its a friend, it's just that much worse, but he never was a close friend , thank God.....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Tanzania Government Fees (circa 1999) and Other Related Fees from one of the top outfitters. Current prices are likely higher.
Structured on a Per-Hunter Basis:

Hunting Permit / 7 Days - $450
16 Days - $600
21 Days - $600
28 Days - $600

Firearms Permits and Duty / 7 Days - $300
16 Days - $400
21 Days - $500
28 Days - $500

Conservation Fees / 7 Days - $700
16 Days - $1,600
21 Days - $2,100
28 Days - $2,800
Observers = 50%

Hunt Area Fees / 7 Days - $700
16 Days - $1,600
21 Days - $2,100
28 Days - $2,800
Observers = 50%

Trophy Export License Fee / $300

Trophy Handling Fees / 7 Days - $600
16 Days - $1,500
21 Days - $2,000
28 Days - $2,200

Trophy Preparation Fees / 7 Days - $300
16 Days - $800
21 Days - $1,000
28 Days - $1,200

Air Transportation / Change of Camp Fees:
# Clients To Camp Change of Camp From Camp
1 $3,000 $3,300 $3,000
2 $2,500 $2,800 $2,500
3 $1,600 $1,800 $1,400
4 $1,400 $1,600 $1,400

I maintain my feeling that the elimination and / or relaxation of Government fees would allow for both an increase in "profit margin" for the outfitter and create an attractive hunt price reduction for the prospective client. From what I can determine, the government also contributes to the exorbitant fuel prices via taxes and could provide still further financial relief in this area. I do not subscribe to the philosophy of viewing the hunting of Tanzania as if it were some lofty aspiration to be associated, necessarily, with higher cost. They are charging too much money, period.
The present system of maximizing profits while minimizing hunters is conducive to their keeping game management expenditures low and is simply one more dollar based rationale for perpetuating the status quo. I do not believe there is any danger, what so ever, of "shooting out" the game if they do their jobs, for a change and make sound game management decisions based on legitimate field work.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 07-15-2001).]

I certainly would love to see a reduction in gov't fees charged to visiting hunters. I would also love to see a reduction in overall costs associated with hunting in Tanzania, but....
Each area has a quota of game that is allowed to be taken. If the outfitters are currently taking enough clients to utilize their quotas, where is the incentive to reduce costs?
I do know that the outfits I keep track of manage to book theirselves full or almost so each and every year. If they are handling all of the clients they can at this point lowering the prices isn't going to better their situations!
The really prime hunting areas are under lease by a small but very stable group of operators. These guys manage their areas very carefully to insure the trophy quality stays high, thus insuring that you get a legitimate chance to take outstanding trophies. And yes, this all comes at a price. Just like fine cigars, wine, guns or automobiles.

Nidkudu,
Thoes prices are very high, who are you quoting??

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, So the best way to make a small fortune in the safari business is to start with a large fortune?

Steve

Ray,

With friends like that, who needs enemas?

Don

Gentlemen, Tanzania will unfortunately always be expensive. As an example - to live a decent lifestyle in Dar es Salaam or Arusha costs about $8000 a month for a two child family.

Charters are expensive, they have to be for the same reasons above. Air Tanzania has now been bought by SAA and you can fly commercial daily to several centres, shortening your charter flights. Check on a map where you will be hunting and ask where the nearest commercial flights land. To charter out of Mwanza to Moyowosi is a third of the cost of Arusha Moyowosi for example.

Reputable outfitters pay for large quotas that they do not shoot, in order to conserve their areas. There are generally many middle men involved in securing and keeping concessions. I would say that on the whole, outfitter's profit margins in Tanzania are lower than in some other countries mentioned, such as Zim, Botswana and certainly South Africa.

The government fees are not excessive in the grand scheme of things. They do make short buffalo hunts hard to price decently. But the government gets an up front cut of the safari proceeds, without which they would not be so willing to let so much land be utilised for hunting. It is a fair deal.

As noted by Ray and others - there are not many PH's or outfitters getting really rich in Tanzania. Its a tough place to do business in. It also has fantastic hunting and is a beautiful place. Worth saving for if you can.

JTHunt, am I reading you correctly on your estimate of living correctly in Tanzania at $8000 a month? Perhaps a lot of us aren't living correctly.

JohnS- You refer to that select group effectivly managing their individual concessions. Would it be correct to assume that these companies are undershooting their goverment permited quota? If that is the case would you have any idea by how much? I have herd of the point system regarding community developement. Can a concession holder increase those points and decrease harvest w/out economic penalty or is each areas quota figure a cash outlay to the goverment? Thanks. Bob Butler.

In selecting my last trip, I did extensive research on where to hunt, the type of hunting and the cost. Everything that everyone has said so far was basically confirmed by my research.

Now, I quickly switched from Tanz to Zim to meet my needs eventhough costs were similar. The one country that blew me completely away was Botswana - the government fee of $300 per person per day (hunter and non-hunter), the VAT and gun fees and on and on. I was looking at $2000 per day just for "fees" before the daily rates kicked in. I punted on that deal.

As Terry B. said - the law of supply and demand rules-even in the safari business.

One twist I have noticed lately is that several agents are buying concessions or are partnering with a group to buy concessions. THey then sell hunts for those concessions along with other places they represent. That is fine and good and I think that is a good idea, but do the other outfits they represent know this and do the customers know this?

My hunt was with HHK at Dande North (controlled/owned by Swainsons) and at Lemco (owned by HHK). All went well and the folks at HHK represented everything to me up front.

After doing this, I think this is bit like buying a car - lots of models to chose from, lots of deals out there - I suggest you chose what you like, work with your agent to find the best deal for you and go have fun.

Bob-
If I remember correctly, each area has a quota for the individual species that area contains. Unless things have changed in recent times, they were "urged" to use at least 50% of that quota, or face having that concession taken away and awarded to another operator. The gov't collects their trophy fees after a client's safari, so having an operator that generates those fees is important to them.

This is a very informative and interesting thread for me. SOme of you here I know and trust implicitly and I'm sure you know who you are . My question is this: I hunted Zimbabwe for buffalo this past June. My costs were 800/day for 14 days, 2k trophy fee for buff and 1200 bucks (for three people)for the air charter to Dande. I also took three other animals, but had I wanted I could have taken all the usual plains game and a leopad for the trophy fees. How does this compare to Tanzania? As most of you know, I had a great time with a great PH and I'm ready to do it again. If Zim were no longer an option, could I afford Tanzania? thanks. jorge

Jorge, I think you could, especially for a 10-day safari that will include two buffalo plus plainsgame. Also, if you hunt out of one camp that is reasonably close to Arusha or Dar Es Salaam, your in-country charter costs should be reasonable, and out of some camps, the safari company will actually pick you up at the airport and drive you into camp, so you won't have to face any charter fees. When you hunt clear across Tanzania from a major city, and then hop between two and even three camps, the air fees go off the chart. But of course on a short buffalo hunt, you wouldn't have to deal with that level of additional expense.

The thing that bothers me about Zimbabwe is that you have to pay dearly for that ONE buffalo you're allowed to shoot. That's why I've resisted hunting buffalo in Zimbabwe so far. You can hunt the gamut of plainsgame animals in Zimbabwe very reasonably, but add that ONE buffalo to the mix and the whole safari gets very expensive very fast. I'd rather hunt buff in Tanzania and get the chance to hunt two or three of them on the same safari.

By the way, my round-trip airline cost this year -- from Portland to Seattle to Amsterdam to Dar Es Salaam and back -- was about $1800, which isn't too bad.

If you want to get the most out of Tanzania for the least money, logistics enters into the picture big time...........

AD

This thread is so old its totally out of date, better file 13 this one, its no longer valid on pricing....

John,

I agree with your opening statement in that all that is possible in Tanzania. Of course some safari companies deliver a better product if you will than others. I also think you can get taken for a ride quite easily in Tanzania. When a safari company takes your money but really does not have a place for you to hunt yet I see that as a problem and it happens all the time in Tanzania. That leads right into dogcat's statement about agents and safari companies being in business together. I always tell folks that an advantage to booking with us is that the concession holder, owner, manager and PH are all the same person. That is a good thing for obvious reasons.

Tanzania is more expensive for example than Zim but the reality is that even though we represent excellent people in Zimbabwe I get far more inquiries about Tanzania. As far as the hunting goes I think you do get more bang for the buck in Zim but it is not the "Tanzania Experience" no matter how you cut it.

Being upset because the prices are higher in Tanzania only serves to make you upset. Either make a plan so you can afford to hunt Tanzania or hunt Zim. You know the same arguement is made by the people that don't feel they can afford to hunt Africa period. Look if you can only afford to drive a 10 year old F-150 it is kind of a waste of emotion to be pissed at the the people that can afford a new F-350 and at Ford Corporation for charging the price they do.

Regards,

Mark

It's a simple case of you get what you pay for and Tanzania is a great hunting country. Instead of bitching about the high cost of hunting, which is only going to get more expensive as time goes on, and that's a fact.

Get off your ass and start saving money, working a part time job, invest correctley or whatever it takes put the money together and go hunting!

I am an airline pilot by trade and if you haven't noticed we ain't doing so good now days. In fact I've taken over 60% in pay cuts over the last 4 years and I've been to Africa HUNTING 4 times in that period. Including Tanzania once!

How have I done it?

I've flown part time for a corporation. I've flight instructed on the side. Last year I ran a fencing crew on my days off (Se'hable espanol)! That helps. I work part time with a booking agencey here in Denver. I don't make much money but I find some great deals and have a good knowledge of how the safari industry works. All this adds up and it has allowed me to do some great hunting. Where there is a will there is a way. And I am redneck proud of my hunting accomplishments. I did it all with my my own two hands and a little ingenuity.

It makes me sick to see all these guys begging free trips on this sight..45-70 crowd!! Or this guy who got sent over to Tanzania free then bitched about having to pay airfare, Colonel shit head I think his name was. I can garun"F'in"tee you that a LT Colonel makes just about the same money if not more money than a pilot on the narrow body, domestic, been down graded 3 times due to the financial woes of a bankrupt shit bag airline does. Guys I've gone from being a Check airmen on jumbo jets teaching other pilots and giving profeciency checks all over the world to flying a frickin airbus to cleveland as a co-pilot. The lowest paid position in the whole frickin airline. (Thank you Osama!) Base pay less than an 0-3 activley flying in the Airforce! I know that for a fact!

And I'm planning on Tanzania next year! And I ain't asking anybody to help pay my way. So take all your damn And stick it where the sun don't shine!!!

Respectfully

Po but proud killer of buffalo and elephants

Bitching AIN'T never solved anything.

Greg Allyn.

Surestrike,
I fully agree and concur with you. That idiot that went to Africa with $130 in his pocket desires the hammering he is taking. You get what you pay for in life and what you are willing to work for. Even with that, there are no garauntees. Life is not fair but is what you make of it.

Greg, the degree to which an individual respects and values ANYTHING is directly related to the amount of personal investment in terms of time, money, thought, and effort, that he has in it.

These disgraceful jackasses who are handed the world on a platter typically don't appreciate or respect anything, and act accordingly.

As the Bible say, "you shall know them by their works..."

AD

I'm glad that you guys took my post in the context that it was meant.

I didn't intend to dog on any of the fine members who've SO FAR have been posting on this thread.

Hunters all...

Surestrike,

By God man, I like the way you think!

You keep on singing...I'll beat the drum!

And this old retired lawdog is headed back to Tanzania in just nine more days. Ain't nobody give me jack to make this trip! And, I wouldn't ask either. I can still sling a paint brush and if you want me to paint for you...you'll have to pay my prices. It's kinda like hunting in Tanzania, if you know what I mean.

Bull1...nine days and counting!

Mark,
Good points and I agree with much of it.

Surestrike
That was beautiful man.
stan.

Having hunted Kenya in the 70's my two safaris in Tanzania in the 21st Century took me back to lost memories. To quote my wife "you get what you pay for". I may never get back to Kenya to hunt, but Tanzania gives you a Great Safari Experience. You can never give up great memories once you have them. Also hunting in a stable country has its merit and reduces issues to worry about after booking and putting dowm hard earned money.
Set your priorities and save the money. It is worth it. Be selective and chose carefully on where to spend your hard earned money.
Good Hunting.
Robert

This post should go into the archives of AR, its several years old and out of date...My first two posting show that I sold Buff hunts for $6850.00 all inclusive...I also predicted a price increase and that has certainly come about as today is $10,550 all inclusive, short of airline travel, $200 per gun fee and tips..even includes a buffalo...1x1 is $12,550.

Guess what?, with the price of fuel its probably going to increase again and again..Then we have the situation in Zimbabwe and soon folks will quit going to Zimbabwe and I assure you that Tanzania Gov will jump on that one and increase our costs...

I just got a letter from one of the old Rhodies who fought the Mau Mau and he is one of the old great PHs along with his best friend Robt. Ritnauer, now living in Ft. Worth...The letter tells of the real situation in Zimbabwe.. the part we are not told about, like the many terrifying events that we never hear about today for some reason, but its happening and it will come to a head before too much longer I suspect. I get a lot of reports from Zim on a daily basis, I don't know how legitamate they are, just reports for what they are worth but they are from folks that live there...not from hunters who had a successful hunt and claim its still safe and sound...I still book hunts there but with the reservation that I tell folks I am not responsible for anything that happens..