Gidday all

In the past I've only ever used 400 gn Woodleighs in my .416 Rig. loaded to about 2400 fps. I would like to try the 350 gn X bullet for a 1 rifle safari next year where the main quarry will be a Cape Buff, but also a Kudu, Waterbuck and other plains game.

Can anyone suggest a velocity limit I should be aiming for with these projectiles? Thanks.

Graeme.

I used this combination on my very first safari, works very well and should serve just fine as a one rifle battery.
The bullets can stand all the velocity you can, recoil wise, so I'd load it to whatever level I found to shoot well and be manageable recoil wise.
In my case they were loaded to about 2400fps, as I wanted them to impact with the other 400gr loads I took along.

Have to disagree on this one, as much as I love the "X". In '97 I took a big bodied buff at 10 yards on a perfect side shoulder shot. I used the 350 "X" @ about 2,460 in the .416 Rem. A one shot kill but the bullet shed all 4 petals and weighed in at 242 grains. I decided at the time to go with the 400 "X" as it shot very, very tight and was just fine in the dual purpose role while leaning in preference to the primary goal which is the buffalo. I think I would prefer the 350 on the plainsgame but to keep things simple and always have the correct soft at hand, I suggest the 400 "X" for Africa.

Nick,

Since you weighed the bullet I assume it stoppped in the animal. How much penetration did you get with the 350?

Don

Nick, Interesting experience on the buffalo. A close shoulder shot on a buff is about the best test on a bullet. The X bullet probably ended up behaving like a Nosler losing the front end. The PH I hunt with uses 500 grain X's out of his 450 Dakota at about 2420 fps and has never had a problem--swears by 'em. I'll be going over shortly and will be using the same thing. I have 3 buff on license as well as hippo. We'll see if I have any problems...
Sort of makes one wonder if people like Ray are right to use only solids on buffalo.

I was told I'd be hunting herd bulls so, as John S says, the 350 "X" seemed a smart choice. It was in actuality but what occurred caught me by surprise in that the 350 "X" bullet smashed through the shoulder bones, disintegrated heart and lungs, then punctured, without breaking, the offside leg bone, inside of which it was recovered, sans petals and 242 grains. I suppose this could be viewed as desirable performance for herd hunting situations but I came away feeling the 400 "X" was made for a reason and that reason is cape buffalo.

In an earlier thread on "X" bullets I opined that "X" bullets were at their best on the heavier animals but also prone to lose their petals more readily when heavy bones were squarely hit. I still feel this is correct. Now, whether or not this constitutes a "problem" or not is another issue.

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 08-08-2001).]

GG375,

I have a friend who has been on several safaris and swears by the 350X. He uses the maximum load. (and a little more). He says he has friends in Africa that use the same load with great results. I have shot the 350x bullet with Rel 22 with good accuracy using the top load listed in the Barnes manual.

The Barnes 350 will shoot higher at faster velocities. You might start with the starting load and work up where it is about 2" higher than the 400gr . Just have a couple of 350's in your pocket for the long range shots at kudu and such.

I still prefer the 400 grainers for buffalo and thats what I used but I carried a few 350's for the long shots on plains game.

Good hunting,
Terry

I'll have to say that I prefer heavier bullets, especially in a big case like the Rigby. However, I am still firmly in the soft point camp as a first or even second shot on buffalo, regardless of caliber. A premium soft point like the X or any of several others will give adequate penetration for me.

It is the tissue - bone sequence which causes the Barnes X to loose its petals. It has nothing to do with the weight, evtl. with the velocity. I use 410 gr Woodleigh FMJ for ele, 400 gr Barnes X for buffalo, both 2525 f/s, 350 gr X with 2650 f/s for heavier game, POI is 3 MOA up. For plains game and the same POI as for the 400 gr I have a reduced load: 300 gr X with 2380 f/s.

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I suspect the petals blow off most of the monolithic Hollow points at close range, but I guess they become a solid at that point, so alls well that ends well....I just take a solid to start with...unless in a herd, then sometimes I will use a soft. I prefer the Northfork to other softs.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Thanks men, for all your good info. I think I'll load them up to somewhere between 2600 and 2700 and pick the load that groups the best around these velocities.

Graeme

Norbert,
I am not sure I get what you're trying to say. From the cannelure forward, the 350 and 400 "X" are identical, same bore and depth of hole and same ogive. The 50 grain weight differential all in the ass end.
The 350 "X", routinely loaded to higher velocity than would be the 400 "X", opens up faster and is more susceptible to "fold-back" and loss of petals upon contact with heavy bone, as described in my post.
It follows then, that the 400 "X" is less prone to petal loss via its' somewhat lower velocity and is thereby rendered more likely to hold together, penetrate further and perhaps break, rather than merely pierce, the opposite shoulder. No?

Nick,

I said, that it is not the weight but the velocity which may cause broken petals, as you also mentioned.
But the mushroomed X doesn�t penetrate better than one with broken petals. Weight loss is about 15 %, it acts like an "expanded solid".

The petals will shear off if after penetrating a short distance of soft tissue (hide) the just opened petals (before fully mushroomed) will hit a bone.

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Norbert,
That is correct but I believe that quick bullet upset is detrimental to penetration in that the "inernal velocity" is sharpy decreased. I have little doubt the 400 "X", at lower velocity would have broken both shoulders and quite possibly exited on this shot.

Norbert and Nick,

the 400 gr 458 Barnes X has more penetration than any expanding bullet I have ever tested.

this is due to its low frontal area, not its retained weight which is about 283 gr in the .458 at point blank range.

It has less frontal area than the 450 or 500 Barnes X since it is going faster and blows off more of the front end.

Velocity is about 2650 fps in my 458 x 404.

The Barnes X seems to have a very, very narrow velocity range it keeps its X petals attached. Almost surely under 2,300 fps. Not really a premium bullet, which can take any velocity, but an expanding solid.

the Fail Safe for instance, while being so similar, is much more ductile and does not seem to work harden when it expands like the Barnes X does. It keeps its petals in .308, 300 mag and 270 and 300 gr 375.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy (edited 08-11-2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GG375:
GG375 Welcome to the forum,
I think you can solve your one gun safari by just bumping the velocity of your 400 grain .416 bullets to 2470 fps. I put some information through my Load From a Disk program. I put in loads for the Barnes X 350 grain and the BarnesX 400 grain. With the 350 at 2650fps and the 400 grain at 2470 fps the trajectory is so close that it won't make any difference. With both bullets zeroed at 200 yds you get the following: 350 Barnes X muzzle vel 2650 fps, energy 5457 ft.lbs, @100yds bullet height +2.09, vel 2475, energy 4761 ft.lbs. @ 200 yds. bullet height 0 vel 2309 fps, energy 4142 ft. lbs. @ 300 yds. bullets height -8.58 vel 2150 fps. energy 3592 ft lbs.
For the 400 grain Barnes X muzzle vel 2470 fps, energy 5418 ft.lbs, @ 100 yds. bullet height +2.49, vel 2311 fps, energy 4743 ft lbs,@ 200 yds bullet height 0, vel 2160 fps, energy 4142 ft lbs @ 300 yds bullet height -9.95 in, vel 2015 fps, energy 3606 ft lbs.
As you can see the difference is very little and not worth carrying two different loads that might confuse the issue. You probably won't even notice the 70 fps difference with the 400 grain Barnes X. With only about an inch and a quarter more drop out to three hundred yards the 400 grain bullet is the better bet. 470 Mbogo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andy:
[B]Norbert and Nick,

"The Barnes X seems to have a very, very narrow velocity range it keeps its X petals attached. Almost surely under 2,300 fps. Not really a premium bullet, which can take any velocity, but an expanding solid".

Andy,
The above is further complicated in that the "X" is prone to too fast an upset upon impacting heavy bones onside. When heavy bone is impacted on the offside, the "X" may deform but will retain its' petals / weight better at the "end of term" velocity.
When no heavy bone is impacted, they often produce their namesake "X" results.
When velocities are increased via the use of lighter bullets the above is only exacerbated. Such is my field experience and all I have to form opinions.

I also suspect a decrease of petal loss % as caliber is increased. Such may be due to both lower average velocities (than those of the lesser caliber) AND the greater physical size and commensurate integrity of the individual petals, with each step up in caliber.

Nick

In a recent article by Gregor Woods in Man Magnum magazine, out of RSA, He stated the the 400 gr. BarnesX has failed to show good penitration on Cape Buffalo for him and some of his PH associates, in his 458 Lott. One wonders how hunters can get such different reactions from the same bullets and same rifles, but it has been happening for years..

I'm loading 350 BX and 400 Gr. Softs (Woodleigh) in my 10.75x68 at 2300 and 2200 respectively, and I have an idea at thoes velocitys I will not have any problems with either bullet, as to failure...

I have allways been amazed at bullet performance at 2100 to 2300 FPS...It made the 450-400, 470, 500, 505, 404, 416 Rigby and a host of others famous in the African killing fields. A combination of low velocity and long for caliber bullets has passed the test of time..

What does it take to prove something to the hi-vel fans, most of whom base their case on limited experience and thoes instant kills that a hi-vel bullet will get from time to time, but sooner or later will get one stomped or et.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray, Dittos on the velocity topic. Like many other Americans I have long suffered with that bug.I remember my first safari where I took a 300 Wby with 200 grain TB's loaded to the gills getting 3170 fps. It took me years to realize this was wrong. I understand why someone would want to use a 350 grain bullet in a 416 or a 450 grain in a 458. Expecially with X bullets, these are long and affect powder capacity. There is the natural desire to make the gun more versatile and of longer range by loading the lighter bullet. While this may be accomplished, short range performance is going to suffer. That is one reason I like higher capacity rounds. In my 450 Dakota I will be using 500 grain X bullets and get 2400 fps with a 22" barrel and not worry a wit with pressure. Using a 458 Lott, one might be tempted to go down to 450 grains to get the same velocity. Where dangerous game is concerned they might be better off sticking to the 500 grain bullet and accepting, say, 2200 fps.

Ray,
It has also, I think, got to do with hunters being eternally enamored with published velocity and trajectory data while envisioning an all around loading. They see they can drive the 350 "X" at 2,500+ in their .416 Rem and, faster still, in their Rigby, yet continue to expect the desired short range performance on heavy game to be there. Absurd, and why I feel the .416/400 "X" is the way to go with buffalo on the agenda but within time proven velocity ranges, as you state. In the larger .458 caliber, dropping to the 450 "X" has proven satisfactory on buffalo.

Nick

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 08-11-2001).]

Guys
I really appreciate all this info, especially as it is based on real life experience. Having considered all of the above I'm now leaning more towards the 400 gn X at the lower velocity - after all, Buff is the main quarry with the plains game in second place.
Thanks 470Mbogo for running some variables thru your program - that ballistic info is very interesting.
Until next time.
Graeme.

I agree with all in that I like the heavy for caliber bullets for big bad beestes...I will say the 450 X bullet in a std. 458 is the way to go, simply because the 500 is too long and just won't work..The 400 is too short and condemmend by the Africans who have used it, such as Gregor Woods and a few others who say it will not penitrate, and thay may reflect on the deleated velocitys that they get with Sochem powders..

Again some of the weird calibers such as my 10.75x68 which is struggling to get near the 2300 FPS velocity requires a 350 gr. X bullet. but at that slower velocity it should work just fine or I will use the 400 gr. at 2200 which I know will work...both are about the same lenth..

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com