Am I wrong, or does a .458 or .416 with tolerable recoil weigh a hell of a lot more than a .404 or .375 H&H?

I don't expect an excessively heavy gun adds any more to the enjoyment of the hunt when you're after a buffalo than it does when you're after a whitetail deer. I also don't expect I would practice as much as I should if I built a light-for-caliber big bore.

I want a buffalo-capable rifle I can practice with a whole lot at the range, and one that I would be willing to carry for long walks during deer season.

How heavy does a .375 H&H, a .404 Jeffrey, or a .416 Rigby or Remington for recoil to be tolerable?

I am pretty well convinced that I don't need a .458 as a client hunter, but I have not ruled out something a little bigger than a .375 H&H for big and dangerous species.

I am particularly interested in the Jeffrey cartridge as an alternative to the .375 H&H.

Thanks,

H.C.

Henry,

I have seen rifles chambered for large calibers range in weight from 10 to 14 pounds, depending on the make and respective caliber.

From my own experience, a sport hunter is much better served by a 375 rather than a larger caliber. It can double as a rifle for everything, which gives the hunter the chance of using it more, becoming more proficient with it.

I have two 375 rifles I hunt with, both chambered for the 375/404, and both weigh around 9 pounds with scopes. I have hunted with these on several occasions, and carried them for hours in Africa. I would not want anything heavier.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I will also cast my vote for the lighter rifle, you carry a rifle far more than you shoot it!
I've had several 416 Remingtons and a 458 Lott that weighed between 9 and 10 pounds and they were no problem to shoot or carry. Anything over 10 pounds is too heavy, IMO, unless it's a 50cal of some type.
Shooting a lot at the range will make one appreciate the 10 or 11 pound guns but there are plenty of ways to tame the recoil besides having the gun weigh too much.
The 404 is a nice cartridge and I'm sure offers a bit more knockdown than the 375, but I'd pick the 416 Remington over it in today's world. Either one will achieve 2400fps with 400gr bullets quite easily so their effectiveness will be similar.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 06-17-2001).]

I like a 404 or 416 that weighs 9.5 Lbs..I can carry that gun all day and shoot it well from all field positions...and 10 lbs wouldn't bother me...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

In my opinion, a nine to ten pound rifle in something like .375 H&H or .416 Remington is just right. I don't like them any heavier.

AD

Ditto what Ray said,I have rifles for bad boys that range in weight from 8lbs,to 11 1/2lbs. My favorite two are an FN Mauser 375 H&H, at 8 lbs loaded, and 8 3/4 lbs loaded with a scope attatched. and a Army & Navy 450/400 3" that weighes 9 lbs with both chambers loaded. I can carry these two for a month, and still shoot either of them well. But as I've said many times here, if I had to use only one rifle for the world, and for all game, it would be that FN Mauser 375 H&H, in a heart beat! If however you must go 416, then I would go 416 Rem Mag in a Mauser, or Win Mod 70 rifle! Far less hassel in loading the Rem416 than the other 416s!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

I'm glad to see all of you come around to MY way of thinking. I'd rather get beat up at the rifle range than lug those heavyweight beasts around when tracking.

YOU CARRY THEM ALOT MORE THAN YOU SHOOT THEM.

I have had several 416's in my time, and I do not want anything much lighter than a 9# bare rifle. This works great if you are going to use open sights. If you add a scope and a full magazine then you loking at aeight between 10 and 10 1/2 # I find anything over ten pounds to be very tireing on a long march with no gunbearer.
George

It sounds like a 9 lb. .375 H&H is going to be pleasant to shoot, and very tolerable to carry. That is probably the rifle I ought to get.

Pricewise, getting a left-handed rifle and lots of ammo to practice with, I don't think I can even get close to the .375 in a .40 caliber repeating rifle.

For the sake of covering hypotheticals, let's say I could afford to feed a .404 or .416 as much as I could a .375; and let's assume I was willing to splurge on the rifle itself.

Is the recoil of a 9.0 lb. .404 or .416 caliber rifle substantially greater than that of a 9 lb. .375 H&H?

H. C.

I always think its funny how many guys you hear bitching about an extra pound or two in rifle weight while carrying an extra 25lb around their middles! Personally (& I mean that!!) that's where I'd start and then look at ditching other redundant kit I was carrying which might further reduce my payload.

Ah....the Welsh! Tactful as a thumb in the eye!

DB,
LOL,

The last post was actually more a case of
self reflection!!! Comes with being shifted into an office with a good canteen!

Pete

The price for a LH rifle in either caliber will be the same, example would be a M70. I would not buy a factory rifle in either caliber, quality just isn't good enough for a DGR. Have a competent gunshop build you one properly, cost shouldn't be over $2k and it will be put together to stay together and function as it should from the first shot on.
Ammo costs for the 416s will run higher if all one buys is factory ammo, but why not reload? Much cheaper for either one and then the 416 ammo costs no more as the bullet prices are virtually the same.
Recoil wise, the 416 kicks more in any weight rifle than the 375. It's not a night & day difference and most shooters can handle it with some range time that starts off with a limit of five or six rounds per session, offhand. Work up a shot or two at a time and before long the recoil will become a non-issue. If you want a buffalo rifle the 416 is better, period. If you want an all around rifle the 375 is better, period.

Very well said John S!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

JOhnS and Mac,

Now boys this is 2001 with 2002 comming up and you must change with the times, become modern in your thinking such as self, get with it!!!

That said, a 416 with a 300 or 350 gr. bullet will do it all and more than a old fashion out of date disgusting ole 375..now that we have GS and BarnesX..what with the 300 gr. to 450 gr. bullets, the 416 is the hands down winner and they come in stainless steel with plastic handles for thoes who pre fer them that way...

I HAVE BLOSSOMED INTO THE 21TH CENTURY!!!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Finding a left hand rifle or even an action to handle one of these calibers will be a REAL chore or will cost a BUNCH of money, especially if you want CRF.

You can find LH Remingtons in 7mm Mag and now .300 Ultra all over the place, these are long enough to make into .375's and 416 RM's. If you kept the BDL stock a new barrel would run around $400 so you could have a .375 H&H or .416 RM for about $800-$850. The other calibers like .416 Rigby would need more metal work. I'll let others here voice their opinions on M700's as DGR's.

LH Ruger actions are too short. LH Winchesters are scarce as hen's teeth. You can get a new Savage with "CRF".

Dakota makes an African model in LH that will come factory chambered for one of your choices and will eat up a $4,000 bill real fast, but they are the only people I know making a real quality rifle with any kind of actual availability. LH Dakota actions are around $2,000 depending on whether it is the action alone or a barreled action.

Oh waitaminute, Ultra Light Arms also makes new LH rifles for these calibers for under $3,000.

Also, I believe there are a few custom metal workers with ads in the Back of Handloader and Rifle that produce LH Mauser actions, but I have never dared even ask what they want for them.

[This message has been edited by Jim in Idaho (edited 06-18-2001).]

This has absolutely gone far enough. Saeed you just have to get these damn imposters off the Board or I'm history. Some idiot is posting positive things about stainless steel barrels, actions and fiberglass stocks and using Ray's sign-on....oh the inhumanity!!!

Hoo-ah Ray!

The .416 Rem Mag will push a 325 gr Barnes X as fast as the .375 H&H will drive a 270 grainer and the drop at 300 yds is only 0.16 inches more. Doubt if you'd notice that.

I'd like to add my observation from recent past experience shooting an 8 lb .375 H&H in the heat of the moment. I neither heard nor felt the shot. I have a vague recollection of a gun firing distantly, but my mind was fully occupied with other matters. I also fired a .340 Wby in the prone position twice without any sensation of recoil whatsoever. My vote: go light and handy. I used to be an advocate of a rifle of "reasonable" weight but my recent experience has changed that perspective. My .340 was heavier (at 10 lbs+) than I really enjoyed, though quite tolerable. My suggestion is to practice in short sessions (5 or 10 shots) to avoid becoming averse to the recoil.

My other observation is that while the Ruger M77 southpaw action may be too short for the .416 Rem Mag, its not too short for the .416 Chatfield-Taylor.

[This message has been edited by Harald (edited 06-19-2001).]

While I'm the first to say "to each their own", I've taken a bit different tack. For my last two safaris I've taken a light and a heavy rifle. The heavy is a lefthand .450 Dakota which weighs about 11 pounds. Yes it is heavier than most rifles but balances beautifully and I enjoy carrying it. I give the light rifle to one of the trackers to carry. I've found myself using the 450 for most shots, even on small game. It balances perfectly and the crosshairs aren't jumping all over the target. With the weight recoil is no problem. On my last 21 day safari I believe I used the light rifle only 3 or 4 times.

Jim in Idaho,

Thanks for the information. I've been thinking along the lines of a Dakota African ($2500) receiver and about $2500 worth of custom gun work to end up with a scout-oid rifle, i.e. forward-mounted low-power scope, aperature backup sights (am I likely to be after buffalo in pouring rain? peep sights are great until they're full of a water droplet).

H.C.

Henry...before you pop $2500 for a Dakota action, take a closer look at the actions made by McMillan and Ed Brown. They will both handle the biggest case you might want to use and they will run you around $1000 plus or minus a bit depending on trigger and bottom metal selected. They are both hell for stout!

DB Bill, said it! LISTEN!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

JohnDL, I'm also a lefty and have been considering which way to go to add a .45 caliber DGR to the gun safe. I keep coming back to the Dakota as the easiest way to get there for a lefty, CRF DGR. But I've heard conflicting reports about Dakota's quality, accuracy and customer service.

You sound pleased with yours, how does it shoot? What has been your experience dealing with the company? Was the gun right when you first received it, or did it have to go back for some tweaking?

I recently saw a used right-hand Dakota in .450 Ackley for sale. Is there a significant difference between the .450 Dakota cartridge and the .450 Ackley?

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NRA and GOA Life Member
Do your part to protect our 2nd Amendment rights and preserve our hunting heritage!

DB,
I'm with you, I want to know who posted that??? Lord, save us if I ever have such a weak moment!!

Gents,
I don't like packin a heavy gun, but I can shoot better off hand with a long barrel and a heavy gun (say 9.5 ot 10 lbs. with a 26" barrel) and especially when I'm winded and thats most of the time...so I bite the bullet Harold, and pack the brute.

Now I suggest if my old knarly fat a$$ can pack a 10 lb. hunk of iron and wood, then so can Harold and the rest of you fine meadow muffins......(grin) Damn I wish I could figure how to make thoes smily faces pop up here???? I'm tired of writting grin all the time,

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
I have only discovered the Forrest Gump type smiley face can be created by typing a colon and the end parenthesis like this see, it turned into a smiley. If I leave a space between the colon and parenthesis : ) lets see what happens.

Mark
You are correct in surmising that I'm happy with the Dakota. As for the action it is similar to the Mod 70 with the 3-position safety and has CRF. In .450 it will hold 4 in the magazine with one in the chamber. Mine will feed everything from the magazine from spitzer to blunt solid. When I get a new rifle I TRY to make it fail while feeding to test it (slide the bolt fast, slow, upside down, etc..) and it hasn't failed (yet). It wears a Swarovski 30mm 1-4 power scope on Tilley mounts. The barrel is 22" and is ported. The stock is straight, with little drop and has a mercury recoil reducer. As I indicated, it balances perfectly.
As for the .450 Dakota round, it is, of course, a .416 Rigby blown out to .458. It is unbelted. It holds several grains of powder less than a .460 Wby but the lack of a belt usually means one can get one more round in the magazine. The round is inherently accurate. What is good about it in comparing it to the Lott or Watts is that you can get good velocity with ease. A Lott will shoot a 500 grain bullet at 2400fps-with a longer barrel, with only certain bullets, with only selected loads. The PH I hunt with in Tanzania (going in Sept) uses a .450 Dakota in a Dakota action, but custom-made. His is a fine setup. I will be bringing with me exactly the loads he uses such that I can leave the extra ammo for him after the hunt. He shoots a TB solid with 110 grains of I-4350 (2450fps in 22 inch barrel) and 500 grain Barnes X with 98 grains Re-15 (2400fps). My gun also loves the 550 grain Woodleigh soft/solids and will shoot them to the same point of impact with less than a 1" group. Although I can get these up to 2400fps the load I like gives 2300fps.
I don't think there's much comparison between the Lott and Dakota rounds. The Dakota can do everything the Lott can do and do it with ease.
As far as the rifles are concerned one can obviously get the rifle from Dakota or have it custom-made. As long as the custom gunmaker is good, I don't think you can go wrong either way. As far as service from Dakota, I haven't had any problems. I also have a .375 Dakota and am thinking about ordering a .300. Good luck. John

Ray,
Try that. That's all I know, and I discovered this accidentally. All I need to know, being the dinosaur that I am.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-21-2001).]

JohnDL,
Another great point about the Dakota action is its larger bolt diameter. The T.rex and .585 Nyati should be made from a Dakota, but who would want to sacrifice a Dakota action for such frivolity? I would.

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-21-2001).]

Ray,
I just discovered the sad face. It is : ( without the space between the the : and the (. Just fiddling: ( )

( :O) ( )

So, : o ( without the spaces turns into a red yawning/bored face? By golly I don't know if that is the correct interpretation. I could be dangerous now. Maybe someone will post in here and direct us old farts to the smiley face code key.

[This message has been edited by R. A. Berry (edited 06-21-2001).]

Yep - it's on the "post reply" page, about an inch and a half to the left of the window you type the message in. It says "Smilies Legend".

Now I'll do my Kreskin impression...think very hard about the clock on your VCR...it's flashing "12:00", isn't it? Thank you! I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

And to keep this related to the thread, it looks like I'm in the ballpark. I figure on my .375 weighing just about 9 lb. with scope, sling, and 5 rounds on board.

[This message has been edited by Fat Bastard (edited 06-21-2001).]

The McMillan action will handle the Lazzeroni case size which has a 0.580" head.
You can get it in long or short length..just tell them what cartridge you are going to use and they will provide the correct one. It is also available left or right on special order. It is also CRF and has the benefit of taking any of the after-market accessories for the Rem 700. The Brown rifle is also available in right or left on special. Both are also available with a hinged floorplate or in single-shot versions. I have two McMillans that are both NP3 coated and these actions are absolutely bullet-proof!

crap!! crap!! crap!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I'll be damned it worked!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Is there a website for McMillan and Ed Brown?

What is the structure of those actions? Mauser type?

The actions look great and accurate but I have to correct one point in that they are not CRF.

From the McMillan website: "The action design includes a Sako style extractor, thumb lever bolt release and Remington style trigger and safety."

From the Ed Brown website: "Battle proven M-16 type extractor in a push feed action for the ultimate in reliability."

The McMillan does not specifically state push feed, but a Sako style extractor strongly implies it. The picture of the action does not show the bolt face but it looks like a push feed.

McMillan action costs $1400 for long or short, right or left hand.

Ed Brown action costs $995 for long action repeater blind mag to $1295 for the long action repeater steel floorplate. Add $100 for a left hand action.

Ed Brown is at www.edbrown.com, McMillan is at www.mcmfamily.com

Thanks Fat Bastard. How could I be so stupid as not to pay attention to the side bar where it clearly says "smilies legend"
But you are wrong about the VCR time, I mastered that long ago

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

And there I was thinking my 9.3x62 was light! With 4 rounds, scope and sling it's a touch over 10lbs. I'm probably 100fps of max and I would not want any lighter that's for sure and that's with a well designed straight line stock.