I love these internet "My balls are bigger than your balls so I carry the biggest gun, blah, Blah, BLAH!

I'd bet the biggest gun types are in reality 350 lb frieghtliners that need a porter to carry around their 14 lb "only shot once" rifle. A friend that owns a gunshop in MN pointed out a .308 handgun he had in a case. Said it was THE gun for profit-he'd sold it five times to guys that shot and traded it back in. He said he'd be surprised if it had more than a box of ammo through it. I wonder how many of these big bore rifle people buy are the "only shot once" variety.

If 50 BMG was legal there'd be chest thumping over how "I love the 50 cal, it puts buff DOWN!" Then a cut-down 20mm Lahtis or a Solothern would be the next step. Luckily there are laws controlling our enthusiasm.

How many that are actually able to shoot a big bore that seems to be the only "sane" option here have tried to carry one around for a day. Have packed it around for most of a day like one would on safari? Tried holding one up for a full minute like one could waiting for the perfect buff to expose himself for the perfect shot? Considered the possible hearing damage from the blast? I've got permanent ringing in my ears so that point always hits home.

The biggest-bore-only-option types aren't doing anyone a favor convincing people they MUST shoot only the BIGGEST! gun possible on safari. I'd bet there are some out there that have no fun at all trying to conform to a bunch of biggest-bore propaganda off the internet.

I use my 375 H&H for killing ground squirrels. So far none has taken a second shot and I have successfully stopped two charges from unwounded sabertooths.

The other side of the story is that most hunters have no experience with anything larger than whitetails have no idea what to use on buff, etc. I have been to Africa a total of once, so I won't expound on my expertise, but I will say the more large game I hunt, the more I hunt with larger rifles. Even on large plains game, a .338-06 or 9.3x62 seems to me about right. I do know that after watching a ton of buffalo hunting and watching them run off after two shots from a .470, .375, .416 I don't want to hunt with anything smaller than the .375. Also I doubt that they had a trophy fee riding on those shot with a .22 HP either, just plunked them, waited a few hours for them to die and loaded them up, either that or head shot them for meat. It's just not the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by nelsonted1:
I love these internet "My balls are bigger than your balls so I carry the biggest gun, blah, Blah, BLAH!

I'd bet the biggest gun types are in reality 350 lb frieghtliners that need a porter to carry around their 14 lb "only shot once" rifle. A friend that owns a gunshop in MN pointed out a .308 handgun he had in a case. Said it was THE gun for profit-he'd sold it five times to guys that shot and traded it back in. He said he'd be surprised if it had more than a box of ammo through it. I wonder how many of these big bore rifle people buy are the "only shot once" variety.

If 50 BMG was legal there'd be chest thumping over how "I love the 50 cal, it puts buff DOWN!" Then a cut-down 20mm Lahtis or a Solothern would be the next step. Luckily there are laws controlling our enthusiasm.

How many that are actually able to shoot a big bore that seems to be the only "sane" option here have tried to carry one around for a day. Have packed it around for most of a day like one would on safari? Tried holding one up for a full minute like one could waiting for the perfect buff to expose himself for the perfect shot? Considered the possible hearing damage from the blast? I've got permanent ringing in my ears so that point always hits home.

The biggest-bore-only-option types aren't doing anyone a favor convincing people they MUST shoot only the BIGGEST! gun possible on safari. I'd bet there are some out there that have no fun at all trying to conform to a bunch of biggest-bore propaganda off the internet.

You are projecting your own inadequacies onto others. There are a LOT of Members here who shoot and hunt with big bores, not because they are showing whose balls are bigger, but rather, they choose to use a cartridge that will do the job with 'room to spare'.

It just doesn't make sense to me to travel 8,000 miles to hunt with something that is insufficient to handle the job.


If you cannot manage to carry, shoot, and hunt with a big bore, that is your problem, not ours.

George

I'm not sure where your post is going, but before I went on my first buffalo hunt I shot my 10.5# .404j some 300rds. When I got to Moz. I carried that rifle on many 8,9,10 mile rips throught the bush chasing buffalo. I only come in about 190# or so but don't seem to have a problem. I do know my limits, I sold a nice .458Lott, couldn't handle sustained recoil. If you've never hunted anyything big enough to hurt you then you probably don't understand. There is a comfort in carrying a rifle w/ finger size cartridges that you know you can deliver when you need to.
Ask the guy who puts (6) well placed shots from hi puny .375h&h into a buffalo's chest cavity why he bought a .416 for his next hunt. A big bore, w/ good shot placement, kills faster, bigger bullets, bigger holes. It's all pretty simple really.

quote:

Originally posted by nelsonted1: "My balls are bigger than your balls so I carry the biggest gun, blah, Blah, BLAH!... Luckily there are laws controlling our enthusiasm...
Considered the possible hearing damage from the blast?... The biggest-bore-only-option types aren't doing anyone a favor convincing people they MUST shoot only the BIGGEST! gun possible on safari. .

It sounds if you do not handle freedom very well. Keep it up... you do define yourself nicely.

I shoot my .416 Rigby five rounds about every other week because it's great fun. I think after you have shot hundreds of rounds through the larger caliber rifles you get used to it and you develop the correct technique. It doesn't really require any excessive physical strength or macho masochism, just practice. I'm 6'1" and weight 190lbs so no Schwartzenegger muscles on this kid. The rifle weighs two more pounds than a standard weight rifle so walking around with it all day isn't some Herculean feat either. But then, I know some people who couldn't carry a sack of golf clubs through eighteen holes either, needing a a caddy or a cart.

I like to think I know my limits as well. I don't handle well the recoil of the .458 Lott or the .505 Gibb so I wouldn't buy one. It just wouldn't be any fun for me to shoot.

I shoot about 40,000 to 50,000 rounds a year on average. Much of this is .22 and .45 Auto. I also shoot my varmint guns a ton. But I have the most fun taking the .375 H&H the .416 Rem and the .458 Win out to the range and shooting the hell out of them. Little bangs are good but the big ones are even better.

I bet all of the people on the board might pitch in a few dollars to watch you stop a charging buffalo with a .22 High Power. I will volunteer the first $100 for a DG hunt. Its just you the pissed off animal and your .22 HP. No PH to back you up.

Should sell on video. I want the rights to it. Your significant other might want to take out an insurance policy.

Why don't you and MS do the hunt.

I admire and enjoy many "African" cartridges but if I had to pick a favorite, it would have to be the .375. When asked, I recommend the .416/.404 class of cartridges as the best choice in a buffalo/ele rifle, for the majority of visiting hunters. When asked what I feel are the most effective catridges for DG, I recommend the .458 Lott/.505 Gibbs class of cartridges, with all necessary provisos. So you see, much does depend on the question and I view the selection of .375 no differently than .500. In the end, the choice is yours, as only you can truly answer the questions.

Nelson

Your point is???? As your post stands it appears you are trying to instigate an argument on a subject you know very little about. If this is your way of trying to get information on big bore rifles you might want to turn down the edge in your writing and just ask the questions you have. You'll get some very reasonable replies if you loose the attitude.

Mark

It is always easy to knock others who are doing something that you cannot do by slandering them on a forum like this one. I had shot a 470 rifle once and 375s a few times until I went to the Big Game RIfle Club of North America shoot at Lodi where Ernie Stallman of Badger Barrels and Sheriff Keith Olsen convinced me, a normally recoil hating shooter, to try several different rifles including several different 450-400 NEs, a 500 and a 577 BPE, and two different bolt action 375 H&Hs. I am grateful to these gentlemen for their hospitality and for showing me that I too could shoot big bores.

By the same count, the experienced big bore shooters on this forum are among the most helpful people in helping novice big bore shooters start shooting big bores. If you are really interested, you should get lots of advice. If you persist on acting like an idiot, you're going to have people laughing at you. Especially those who regularly shoot big bore rifles and know how much fun they're having doing this.

As usual I wasn't clear. I should have used the words "biggest-bore" throughout the post.

THe point is the ordinary hunter going to Africa on his first hunt reading about the need for the biggest big bore possible. He buys a Lott or 460 or 500 and then fires it getting the hell scared out of him. He thinks to himself he won't be safe with a .404 or 375 so he goes back to the rifle and tries it some more. He goes to Africa with a rifle he hasn't shot more than a few times, a rifle he is scared to death of and has a flinch so bad he slams his eyes shut as he shoots.

Then the professionals in camp that has seen "the overgunned American" over and over starts asking questions. Do you target shoot? Do you hunt? WHat do you hunt with? Have you shot the safari rifle much? Finally why'd you bring a rifle you can't shoot and are scared to death of? "Isn't that the only thing that'll kill a buffalo? That's what they say on the internet." He's finally told he'd kill a buffalo with a gun he practices with and is able to shoot well.

I have no business making any statements on hunting buffalo since I am not an expert spending years learning about them following buffalo around, watching their behavior, learning from the old guys that have spent their lives around them like African farmers, professional hunters and natives (and some hunters).

The reason I posted this is the strong whiff of elitism I read on the African AR. I've watched the "I have a bigger gun than that" crap and have wondered how many actally shoot them or even have them.

Lets hear from some real proffesional hunters on whether a "biggest-big-bore" that the hunter is scared of is better than a lesser big bore that the client shoots well. These buffalo ARE NOT seven or eight GE locomotives with a 1/2 mile coal train behind going 80 mph straight at you that must be stopped!

I understand a lot of this is windy orations coming in gusts out of the internet but eventually it gets out of hand.

TED NELSON

I bet all of the people on the board might pitch in a few dollars to watch you stop a charging buffalo with a .22 High Power. I will volunteer the first $100 for a DG hunt. Its just you the pissed off animal and your .22 HP. No PH to back you up.

I'd take the money for a safari but I wouldn't take that contract- I'm not stupid!

nelsonted,

What exactly is wrong with elitism?

Ted,

You won't see any of the genuine Africa hunters here espousing the use of big-bore rifles without adding that the prospective DG hunter first become proficient with it.

To some shooters (and they are legion), a .30-06 is more gun than they care to shoot. To others, a .300 magnum represents their upper limit.

It is up to the shooter to decide what he/she can handle, regardless of what the gun rags or internet forums say.

However, to hunt DG legally and effectively, you need a larger bore, and you MUST be able to hit with it.

Anyone who goes hunting with a rifle they are afraid of or can't shoot effectively, is a fool, and PHs are full of tales of such fools.

Conversely, PHs are very happy to see a fellow show up with a .416 or .458 (or bigger) he can shoot.

George

Ted

No one here says you can't buff with a 404 or a 375. Fact is a .375 is the minimum for dangerous game in most countries.

If that is your recoil tolerance and what you shoot well, then that's what you hunt with. I don't think anyone on AR will disagree. You have a PH to sort things out if need be, no matter what caliber you choose.

However, the bigger bores are fun to shoot and one should shoot it well if he goes to Africa and hunts DG. I don't recall anyone saying anything any different than that.

John

quote:

Posted 15 February 2006 11:42
I love these internet "My balls are bigger than your balls so I carry the biggest gun, blah, Blah, BLAH!

I'd bet the biggest gun types are in reality 350 lb frieghtliners that need a porter to carry around their 14 lb "only shot once" rifle. A friend that owns a gunshop in MN pointed out a .308 handgun he had in a case. Said it was THE gun for profit-he'd sold it five times to guys that shot and traded it back in. He said he'd be surprised if it had more than a box of ammo through it. I wonder how many of these big bore rifle people buy are the "only shot once" variety.

If 50 BMG was legal there'd be chest thumping over how "I love the 50 cal, it puts buff DOWN!" Then a cut-down 20mm Lahtis or a Solothern would be the next step. Luckily there are laws controlling our enthusiasm.

How many that are actually able to shoot a big bore that seems to be the only "sane" option here have tried to carry one around for a day. Have packed it around for most of a day like one would on safari? Tried holding one up for a full minute like one could waiting for the perfect buff to expose himself for the perfect shot? Considered the possible hearing damage from the blast? I've got permanent ringing in my ears so that point always hits home.

The biggest-bore-only-option types aren't doing anyone a favor convincing people they MUST shoot only the BIGGEST! gun possible on safari. I'd bet there are some out there that have no fun at all trying to conform to a bunch of biggest-bore propaganda off the internet.

.
.
.
Don't sell that 416! You may need it when you go to Africa. Easy killing African animals are long gone so you need a stomping gun! Old time hunters like W.D.M. Bell who killed 23 buffalo with 23 shots from a Savage 22 High Power using 80 grain bullets (He also bagged 25 lions and 16 leopards with the 22 High Power)ruined the African gene pool. Only the super duper hard killing leviathons are left. Work with that rifle!

If those are your feelings, then "feel" free to start a trend in the opposite direction.....

(1) My balls are bigger than your balls because I use a smaller cartridge than you.

OR

(2) My balls are smaller than your balls because I use a smaller cartridge than you.

OR

(3) My balls are bigger than your balls because I use a more average/mundane/boring cartridge than you.


Pick your poison. Good luck with that.

Ok Ted, I'll give this another try. I think the "attitude" you are talking about is present in many hunters, not just those going to Africa w/ a big bore. How many times have you read this or that post about elk rifles? Guys read magazines, talk to others who hunt & then decide whether they need a bigger rifle or not. It still comes down to the individual hunter knowing his limits, whether it's recoil, range estimation, actuial shooting ability, etc. I don't think I've ever read a credible thread that sniffs of elitism. BTW, if you ever get to hunt buffalo in the tall grass, you'll be glad to have the biggest bore YOU CAN SHOOT.

The point is that most first time hunters of African dangerous game are carrying a .375 H&H, they don't start out with a .458 Lott or .500 whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by nelsonted1:

I'd bet the biggest gun types are in reality 350 lb frieghtliners that need a porter to carry around their 14 lb "only shot once" rifle.

How many that are actually able to shoot a big bore that seems to be the only "sane" option here have tried to carry one around for a day. Have packed it around for most of a day like one would on safari? Tried holding one up for a full minute like one could waiting for the perfect buff to expose himself for the perfect shot? Considered the possible hearing damage from the blast? I've got permanent ringing in my ears so that point always hits home.

I think others have covered most of the bases here, but I’d like to drop in a quick word about the hearing damage from the blast of the big bore. Most of the other shooters at the range will be surprised at how QUIET your big bore is. When a friend and I get together at the local range to practice with our heavy rifles (.458 Lott and .416 Rigby), we are the QUIETEST shooters on the rifle range. You want ear damage? Shoot an M4 (those short AR-15 clones that are everywhere). Those .223’s are much worse on the ears. Even a .243 has more blast than my Lott.

I guess it’s just easier to make a ridiculous point than to find out the truth. I'm sorry about all the ringing in your ears. Maybe it was from too much varmint shooting?

With practice, a heavy rifle can be quite comfortable to shoot. Another friend and I routinely spend an afternoon plinking frogs and such in stock tanks when we go boar hunting, I with my Lott, he with his .470. It’s nothing to go through 50-60 rounds apiece, and great fun is to be had by all. Oh, and we carry those rifles all day long, too, because they’re fun. We also carry them around all day on Safari.

As for a large bore being too heavy to hold up and ready waiting for the shot, here's a quick and simple test to see if your rifle is too heavy. Pick it up at the wrist and hold it out at arm's length, muzzle straight up, with one hand. If you have to strain to hold it this way for 1 minute, then you either need a lighter rifle or better conditioning.

I think we can sum it up with this simple statement.

nelsonted1,

Your statement is total and utter uniformed

Every point you've made is incorrect, you obviously have no experience with the rifles you've written about, and you also do not know or shoot with any serious African hunters. To have any knowledge what so ever would have canceled any and all of your opinions.

If you are jealous of those people who save and scheme and toil to be able to afford a DG hunt there is only one cure.

Start saving and toiling.

If you are just one of those people who gets a little stimulation from the evil internet battle field then please feel free to kiss our collective.


The big bad “Lott†is not even close to the “biggest bore†in fact it can be quite tame to shoot in a proper rifle at realistic velocity. It seems to me your whole thought process has been heavily jaded by gunmagitis or a “total gun store commando†immersion course.

Nelsonted1

Your attitude and approach completely turns me off. IMHO opinion you don't deserve an answer.

465H&H

quote:

Don't sell that 416! You may need it when you go to Africa. Easy killing African animals are long gone so you need a stomping gun! Old time hunters like W.D.M. Bell who killed 23 buffalo with 23 shots from a Savage 22 High Power using 80 grain bullets (He also bagged 25 lions and 16 Leopards with the 22 HIGH POWER)ruined the African gene pool. Only the super duper hard killing leviathons are left. Work with that rifle!

First off YOU are the one who sounds like a MY OPINION IS THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS, know-it-all!

My question, to you, is, What DG experience do you base your opinion on, as to what is required to take DG in Africa? Is that opinion backed up enough to tell those who have been there, and done that, how, and with what it should be done?

I certainly could be wrong, not knowing you personally, but I'd bet my next retirement check, that you have never shot anything bigger that a Kentucky whitetail, or any rifle bigger that 30-06.... Well maybe a 45-70 lever gun!

The above questions are not really in need of answers, because IMO, you are amoung those who have never been there, but because you think you know what you are posting about, makes your post valid. I think you have read too many books, and bypassed the DG hunting experience that would have told you the truth.

Speaking of TRUTH, your numbers of game taken by Bell with his 22 HP, are right out of "HIS" book.

My question to you is, Who counted those "ONE SHOT KILLS"? That's right BELL! Who says he never lost any game that he didn't bother to follow up? That's right BELL! Who witnessed all these amazing feats? That's right, BELL!

I ask you, if a guy came into one of your hunting camps today, and made the claim that he has killed even 10 Brown bear with a 22 HIGH POWER, all with one shot kills, do you think all the deer hunters in that camp would simply take his word for it, to be fact? NO Damn way! He would be laughed out of camp! In this case, one would doubt he had ever seen a REAL LIVE BROWN BEAR! Bell writes it in a book,80yrs ago and you simply accept it as fact! The fact is, the 22 HP was discontinued because it had a reputation of wounding, and looseing whitetail deer! Repeteing an exageration (lie) for 100 yrs doesn't make it any truer than it was when it was first told! Yet you choose to believe it because it is in a book!

I don't for one minute believe all the dareing-do of all those old writers! I don't believe it, because they wrote books to be read by those back in England, who would never go to Africa, and had no way to dispute their claims. It seems some here, who have never faced any of the DG of Africa, believe it as well! I've been there, and I call !

It is not a requirement that you agree with anyone here to be a member of this forum, but why on Earth would you want to read all the posts of those who know nothing, and that are held in such contempt by you? As for me, you are welcome here, attitude and all, but I think you are a little too full of your own opinion, to gain much from your stay here!

As I said earlier, I could very well be totally wrong about you, but I've been wrong before, and lived over it!

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