One of the things that I have started contemplating is a PAC elephant hunt. I have long dreamt about taking a huge tusker, but the reality is that I do not have the time (21 day safari) or for that matter do not want to expend the amount of dollars it takes for a large ele. Recent posts about people being fed up with taxidermy/shipping has further spurned my interest. Thus my idea of a pac hunt in Mozambique. I realize we are not talking big ivory (or for that matter that I can keep it), but isnt the real trophy the hunt itself? I could take a ton of pictures and have a pair of replica tusks made ( but would first confer with Will and Mickey 1 as to whether that would further construe one as a phony ). Thoughts?

PAC ele's are fun. Tuskless cows are great fun. Be very careful who you book "PAC" with, especially in Mozambique. Not always legal - even though the hunts are advertised. Same goes for Zim for that matter.

A cow or tuskless ele hunt is possibly more like "trophy" ele hunting- but proper "PAC" can sure get the old heart pumping and unclog a few artriess

Ganyana,

How does one go about determining the legality of a PAC hunt in Mozambique? Am I allowed to bring back the skin?? Thanks.

sometimes you can bring back the skin from zim. but nothing can be imported from mozm. tanning the skin is also pricey, last time I looked it was something like $10/sq.ft. and there are several sq.ft.

For legality, your PH will have a PAC permit on quota. I don't know how you validate that it's legitimate, but you should be able to trust the PH you're booking the hunt with.

I'm 99.9% positive that you won't be able to bring back any part of your Moz. ele.

Bwana, speaking from experience if you want to experience the rush of eles up close...Hunt them in the jess...You will smell them, hear them, and then see them...You will see your trackers stop and take off their shirts and roll up there pants and then get behind you and the Ph..They are ready to run if the ele charges and they will throw their shirts at the ele to confuse them...The locals are terrified of eles...An ele at 30 feet does not need heavy ivory...sixty to eighty pounds total is big enough..If he decides to come for you... he will be there in 3 steps...My bull was just that 30 feet looking down at me from top of an embankment...Instead of around 11 feet to the top of his head he was around 15feet towering above me...He was impressive to say the least...

Did you ever get those bracelets????

Mike

How does one go about advance booking a PAC elephant hunt? By its very definition, Problem Animal Control permits are issued for specific animals due to the fact they are causing a problem with the local inhabitants or their crops, etc.

These type of hunts arise only on very short notice. They can't be booked in advance.

Are the hunting laws in Mozambique different?

No part of an elephant from Mozambique may be imported into the US.

Regards,

Terry

Terry,

You bring up an exellent point! I will pose that question to the PH and report back his response.

quote:

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Originally posted by T.Carr:
How does one go about advance booking a PAC elephant hunt? These type of hunts arise only on very short notice. They can't be booked in advance.

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Not true. Moz puts PAC on quota.

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

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Originally posted by T.Carr:
How does one go about advance booking a PAC elephant hunt? These type of hunts arise only on very short notice. They can't be booked in advance.

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Not true. Moz puts PAC on quota.

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Do these so called PAC elephants then count against the CITES quota?

Well, if they are on quota then they aren't PAC elephants. If they count against Mozambique's CITES quota then they shouldn't be calling them PAC. PAC is supposed to be a government regulated program to control problem animals. CITES allows for the taking of PAC animals and they don't count against quota (but you don't get an export permit either).

If they aren't counted against CITES quota, then calling them PAC and setting an internal quota in advance is a violation of the intent of CITES. Why not just call them what they are, non-exportable questionable ways to get around the provisions of CITES?

Regards,

Terry

quote:

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Originally posted by T.Carr:

quote:

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Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

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Originally posted by T.Carr:
How does one go about advance booking a PAC elephant hunt? These type of hunts arise only on very short notice. They can't be booked in advance.

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Not true. Moz puts PAC on quota.

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Do these so called PAC elephants then count against the CITES quota?

Regards,

Terry

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I do not know much about CITES, but I do know the ellies are not exportable. Not even the skin or toenails.

In the more developed areas of Africa, elephants only pose problem for crops once in a while. So in those areas PAC elephants are available on short notice only when a problem occurs. In other area, elephants are in the crops all the time. In otherwords, elephants are always a problem in those areas, so the game dept chooses to issue a standing PAC quota in some concessions.

I do not see why you refer to them "so called PAC". Can't the government call them PAC if it wants to?

It's not that Mozambican Elephant's can't be exported......they can. The problem is the the US F&WS won't issue an import licence for Mozambican Elephant products. The US F&WS view is that they assess each country on it's own merits and they don't consider that Mozambique has a properly organised Elephant control programme (actually from my experience, mozambique doesn't have a properly organised anything!). They don't say so, but my guess is that one of the main reasons they adopt this attitude is the very fact that the country has PAC Elephants on quota and easily available....they seem to ignore the fact that Mozambique has a very healthy Elephant population.

Anyone living in the UK or Europe etc should have no problem in getting import licences......but then the costs go up anyway and the real reason most people choose for the PAC option anyway is cost.

PAC is suppposed to be a government regulated program to control problem animals. It's supposed to be a way to eliminate problem animals without them counting against CITES quota (no PAC animal is exportable to any country). For Mozambique to be able to offer PAC animals in advance seems to me to be violation of the spirit of CITES.

Usually a case-by-case determination has to be made by the appropriate government authority that a particular animal or group of animals is interacting in a persistant and harmful way with humans.

If you determine that, "Every elephant that eats crops planted by the locals is a PAC elephant." Then you could wipe out a large portion of the elephant population every year.

If Mozambique actually sets, in advance, the number of PAC elephants that are allowed to be killed, then this doesn't fit the definiton of PAC as envisioned by CITES.

Regards,

Terry

Terry

.........I wouldn't argue with that. They do have a lot of crop raiding etc problems there as so many of the "indiginous populations" live actually in the bush but as you say, it doesn't exactly tie in with the spirit of CITES does it?

.......but as an olf friends says "T.A.B." ......that's Africa bwana.

2004 CITES Elephant Quotas:

Mozambique - 40
Namibia - 75
Botswana - 210
Zimbabwe - 500
RSA - 60
Tanzania - 100

Regards,

Terry

I thought we had been down this road before:

Previous AR Post on PAC Elephant in MOZ

Regards,

Terry

Yup.

Mozambique has a quota of exportable, trophy Elephant. It is small. Maybe a dozen or so were issued in 2000 or 2001, if memory serves me correctly. I do not know what it is currently.

The US does not allow importation of these tropies, even though Mozambique issues an Export permit. As Shakari states, UK, Spain, etc can import these Elephant.

PAC Elephant in Moz are not exportable.

Just because it is a PAC Elephant in Africa, does not mean we can not bring it back to the US. PAC Elephant Bulls are usually exportable from countries like Zim and Namibia. Unless things have changed in Zim, there are still PAC Elephants available for export. Namibia is the same way. PAC Elephant Bulls are eligible for export and import into the US from Namibia.

I do not know about PAC Cows. I have never heard of one eligable for export, but I might be corrected here.

If Moz issues the PAC quotas, then it's legal. That's about the end of it as far as the client is concerned.

The greater issue of whether this practice strictly adheres to the spirit of CITES is probably a good topic for dinner with some Moz cabinet ministers. When the opportunity arises, I will mention it.

But if we cannot collectively convince SCI to stop offering poached "hunts" from a certain South African outfitter, what is the chance we are going to convince a black government to adhere to the "spirit" of anything?

Mozambique Wildlife Regulations:



SECTION VI

Hunting for defence of people and goods

ARTICLE 68

Requirements
1) The following constitute the requirements for the exercise of hunting in defence of people
and goods
a) The existence of an actual or imminent attack by wild animals on persons or goods
b) The impossibility of driving away one or more animals which are persecuting or
attacking people or goods
An imminent attack is considered to be when one or more wild animals are heading for
or have entered property or dwelling areas with strong indications that they may attack
the people and goods existing there

2) For the effect of No. 1 the impossibility to drive away animals is considered to exist when
dealing with dangerous animals, or others which are not dangerous when they will not
move even despite the employment of methods considered to be the norm for driving away
that particular species

3) Goods is taken to mean human life, agriculture, domestic animals, dwellings, vehicles and other items of economic value or social relevance

4) The hunting referred to in this article is not subject to closed seasons nor to the limitations and restrictions defined for hunting activities

ARTICLE 69

Competent entities

1) Those competent to carry out the type of hunting referred to above in defence of people and goods are specialised brigades which should comprise inspectors or other functionaries
from that sector (SPFFB), community agents assisting the inspectors, professional hunters
and community hunters

2) In terms of the previous number those assisting the inspectors, the professional hunters, and community hunters may, together with the SPFFB request that they are authorised to hunt in defence of people and goods

3) This type of hunting is unpaid, and all those locally involved must mobilise all methods
available in order to ensure its efficacy when requested by the SPFFB or other competent
bodies as referred to in No. 1 of this article

ARTICLE 70

Hunting in defence of human life

The type of hunting referred to in the previous articles, when carried out in defence of human life may be carried out by any individual with or without licence assuming that they consider that the requirements stipulated in article 68 of this regulation have been fulfilled, and that they communicate the fact afterwards to the administrative authority closest to the place within a period of not more than 48 hours, except where the occurrence is in such a remote area that they may justify making a later notification

ARTICLE 71

Abuse of hunting in defence of people and goods
Anything which is not authorised, or which is alleged to be hunting in defence of people and goods but does not fulfil the legal criteria to that effect, and which results in the capture, killing or injuring of a species of wild animal is considered to be hunting without a licence or hunting not in accordance with the legally established conditions

ARTICLE 72

Destination of products

The spoils resulting from the wild animals killed in terms of the previous articles, when considered to be hygienic and suitable for consumption, will be distributed free to the respective local community, a part having been saved for those involved in the hunt

ARTICLE 73

Regulation

The ministries of agriculture and tourism will establish by joint diploma any other norms of
application and exercise of hunting in defence of people and goods, as well as the conditions for culling resulting from the management and maintenance of ecological equilibrium

Regards,

Terry

Terry,

What are you trying to say?

Simply that PAC elephant hunting in MOZ requires some due diligence to ensure that everything is proper.

But as we know, there are rules and then there are African rules.

Regards,

Terry

Yup

First to all of you a prosperous and successful 2005.

As Mr. Carr correctly stated you can not book an problem animal hunt in advance.

500grains is incorrect in stating that “Mozambique puts PAC on Quotaâ€
I am talking about Mozambique hunting quotas and not CITES quotas. Mozambique hunting Quotas a published annually in the main Mozambican News Papers broken down into concession quotas, game farm quotas and provincial quotas stating clearly the quotas for each hunting concession / area. There a no quotas for PAC animals! The by the government allocated elephant quotas is lower than the Cites Quota.

Standing PAC quotas do not exist in Mozambique!

Mr. Carr PAC elephants do not count against the CITES quota.

We get every year “ orders†from the district authorities to shoot PAC animals. Mostly Hippo, Croc’s, Bush Pigs, Baboons and also Elephant. In each case we investigate if there is a real problem. In the majority of cases the only problem is the locals desire for free meat! In September last year my manager got told to shot 1 or to 2 elephants from a group of “ crop raiding†elephants close to a village. I went there myself and found that a group of elephant visited a Corn field and damage about 50 square meters of corn field the damage was about 20$.= 10$ per problem animal? I told them to f---k of and warned them I would any attempt to shoot this elephant see as poaching till I get I direct written instruction from the national director to kill them.
The story behind it, in this case, were the upcoming election, and lots of free meat means lots of happy voters.
On other location you will find perhaps the motivation to declare PAC animals is money and /or meat for the locals or whatsoever.

Yes there a some PAC elephants every year in Mozambique but I doubt that most of the advertised PAC elephants fall under this category.

Take the time to read the posted section of the law it is stated who can hunt and when!


IMO there must be more Problem Outfitters and PH’s than PAC elephants in Mozambique.

You can take your chances if you get away with it ok if not ….. in any way it will be an experience not to be forgotten!


Good Hunting!

freischutz,

So when safari companies state that they have PAC elephants on quota in Mozambique,...what does that mean? And can you give us any credentials so that we will know what you say is true?

And isn't it possible that in a particular concession MOZ has always given 5 or 10 or whatever PAC permits, so they will again, and therefore it is possible for safari companies to book well in advance?

shakari,

How do you go about doing your due diligence of PAC bull elephant hunts in Mozambique? [I am assuming you have offered them for sale in the past. If that assumption is incorrect, please let me know.]

Wow! This is getting complicated! FYI, I started thinking about these hunts after I met a ph at a hunting show last Thursday here in Houston. He is/was in-fact offering a 7 day hunt for hippo/croc and PAC ele for a great price and willing to book for 06 or even 07!! Very nice guy, but now I am beginnng to wonder if it was too good of a deal!

500grains!

If you would have taken the advise given in my last post to read the hunting law carefully you should ask the safari company in question to explain how a client would be permitted under Mozambican law to hunt a PAC animal?

Some safari companies state whatever they feel is good for their business there a offers on hunting Roan and Giraffe in Mozambique the problem is that both a specially protected species in Mozambique.

Some areas have a reasonable roan population and maybe hunting for roan will be permitted in the future but giraffe not for a long time. The last known, confirmed sighting of giraffe in Mozambique was 1994/5 and this one consisted of 5 animals! Last years unconfirmed report of 2 giraffe’s have not been confirmed yet. And you think the government would issue a hunting quota on them? Now if I read a offer from a safari company advertising hunts for this species I would draw the conclusion that he may not know what he is doing, and I defiantly would not book with him.
Some advertising offers hunting from March / April however the hunting season is from 1st June till the 30th of November and there a no exception’s.
All this is stated by “Safari companies†I hope you can draw your on conclusion from this?

Mozambique seams to have an attraction to very creative characters and hundreds of safari companies claiming huge hunting concession’s. Fact is we got according to the 2005 quota list 9 hunting concession, 15 community based conservation areas (campfire) and buffer zones and 5 game farms. This a the areas which have been allocated a hunting quota. During the last 11 years I heard and seen a lot of people claiming to have areas some never have been to Mozambique other made some “deals†most did not lasted long and every year there replaced by new guys with the same BS. In the last years a flood of Zimbabwe and SA Phâ€s overrunning Mozambique and all sell hunts and millions of hectares of land if you add just the land areas up is bigger than the whole Country!

How can anyone claim to have an annually PAC quota ? this is ridiculous most real PAC animals get shot outside the hunting season anyhow and this is done by operators or government game scouts ASAP.

“And isn't it possible that in a particular concession MOZ has always given 5 or 10 or whatever PAC permits, so they will again, and therefore it is possible for safari companies to book well in advance?â€

A you kidding? PAC animals on order for foreign hunters at a matching safari date???

Unfortunate, for hunting and conservation, it happen if the “right†combination comes together , seller buyer and supplier, for the right price! Without the buyer the others a out of business. It is up to the individual if he wants to be part of it or not .

You want credentials? Ok send pm whit your e-mail and will forward them to you. I hope you a so careful if you book a hunt.

Some agents sell this hunts without knowing that there a illegal.


The other option is to fax or phone the relevant government agency’s in Maputo!


MINISTERIO DO TURISMO
DIRECCAO NACIONAL DAS AREAS DE CONSERVACAO
MAPUTO
ATTN:
Mr. Afonso Madope ( National Director)
Maputo
25th Setembro

Tel: +58 1 303616
Fax: +58 1 303633

Minister of Agriculture
Maputo
DNFFB
ATTN.
Mr. Arlito Cucu ( National Director)
Mr. Sansou Bonito ( Head Game warden & CITES man in MOZ)

Tel. +58 1 460036
Fax. +58 1 460060

I can certainly vouch for freischuetz's credentials. He's been operating in Mozambique for some years which is a good credential in itself and as he says a lot of people who actually claim to have their own areas there don't......he does. I've never used it, but maybe some time in the future......

Due diligence.......hmmm, not a term that's used much in Mozambique. We like most outfitters do our very best, but in Africa and especially in Mozambique the hard facts are that you should try not to take too much at face value. I like Mozambique but one has to especially careful to ensure you get everything in writing. It's not for everyone and you cannot get away from the fact that it is mostly what my partner so aptly calls "cowboy country"

A lot of what is and is not permitted can be dictated by people such as the local chief of police and the friendlier you are with him the easier life can be. ......and that includes Elephant hunting.

It's also the main reason that the US F&WS refuse to issue import licences for Mozambican Elephant trophies......perhaps a better term than PAC might be non-exportable Elephants. The country has terrific Elephant populations generally and excellent trophy quality in places......but be prepared to work hard and sweat for your trophies and remember success isn't guaranteed......if you can live with that you'll have a good hunt and it's a hell of a lot safer than Zimbabwe.

freischutz,

Thank you for the contact for the Minister of Tourism. As you know, there is a lot of intentional misinformation being posted on the internet, often by persons who have a vested interest in the behavior of prospective clients, so it is sometimes necessary to ask for credentials or verification.

_____

shakari,

I thought that in a post above you were recommending some due diligence before booking a Moz hunt, but if I understand your recent post, due diligence is not possible.

Also, why do you say it is safer than Zimbabwe? Have your clients faced difficulties in Zimbabwe? Would you advise them that Zimbabwe is safer than South Africa? [The stats say it is.]

Thanks all!

Contact Graham at www.hhksafaris.com
In Zimbabwe elephant bulls are $10,000, elephant cows are $2,000.
Thismpast june I hunted with HHK and shot 2 cows and one bull. Elephant hunting is the most fun hunting I have ever done. You get the most fun for your buck with cows, but NOTHING compares to taking a bull with nice Ivory.
Especially with a double rifle... of course.