Eagle27,

One of the other videos in camp I mentioned was in regards to the bowhunting Frenchman. It clearly shows Buzz making a dead center too high head shot with his 416 at no more than seven yards. The cow elephant (not a big bull) blinked, but did not slow down and went straight for the unarmed companion who very narrowly escaped being killed and I do mean very narrowly. The footage is exceptionally compelling. Too bad it is not as of yet publically viewable. One lone 416 round did not stop her or even slow her down. I have heard Saeed state this many times on this forum and that is the only way you can positively stop a charge is by a clean frontal brain shot. I really doubt if Buzz had been the only one to fire that it would have stopped that charge especially since Mike has stated that all three head shots missed the brain.
That cranky old bastard Will is right. There is no such thing as too much gun when you are amongst them...or whatever he babbles about.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Knowing mike personally

Oh brother, does this qualify you for a signed 8 by 10 glossy, or something?

You bet it does, and he even autographed it for me, it was even a timed photo of him with me in the picture as well. He even offered to let me go along on his next ele hunt, to carry his rifle, ammo, and water jug, if I paid my own way. Hell I might even be in the next film on YOU TUBE loading for him!


You'd be surprised at the famous people I know! You know like some folks who write books, that have influenced my sleeveless shirt for safari, dress and now I've taken up wearing pink sandals so I can live vicariously in some folks shadow. That influence has even gotten me to thinking about converting all my double rifles to single triggers, and ejectors as well. By the way, when is your new book on double rifles going to be available so I can correct all my opinions on how they should be made? How much extra will it cost for an autographed copy?

You know I always carry my autograph book when I meet all the famous people on AR, and NE just in case they may agree to give me an autograph!

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
Eagle27,

One of the other videos in camp I mentioned was in regards to the bowhunting Frenchman. It clearly shows Buzz making a dead center too high head shot with his 416 at no more than seven yards. The cow elephant (not a big bull) blinked, but did not slow down and went straight for the unarmed companion who very narrowly escaped being killed and I do mean very narrowly. The footage is exceptionally compelling. Too bad it is not as of yet publically viewable. One lone 416 round did not stop her or even slow her down. I have heard Saeed state this many times on this forum and that is the only way you can positively stop a charge is by a clean frontal brain shot. I really doubt if Buzz had been the only one to fire that it would have stopped that charge especially since Mike has stated that all three head shots missed the brain.
That cranky old bastard Will is right. There is no such thing as too much gun when you are amongst them...or whatever he babbles about.

If you hit an elephant too high over the brain, no caliber is large enough to stop it or knock it down. That part of the head is a honeycomb of airspace and thin bones evolutionary designed to absorb shock from head to head fights between elephants. If you know your anatomy it is obvious. That is why if you see an ele show little or no reaction to a frontal head shot with an adequate caliber, you are safe to assume that it was too high.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
Eagle27,

One of the other videos in camp I mentioned was in regards to the bowhunting Frenchman. It clearly shows Buzz making a dead center too high head shot with his 416 at no more than seven yards. The cow elephant (not a big bull) blinked, but did not slow down and went straight for the unarmed companion who very narrowly escaped being killed and I do mean very narrowly. The footage is exceptionally compelling. Too bad it is not as of yet publically viewable. One lone 416 round did not stop her or even slow her down. I have heard Saeed state this many times on this forum and that is the only way you can positively stop a charge is by a clean frontal brain shot. I really doubt if Buzz had been the only one to fire that it would have stopped that charge especially since Mike has stated that all three head shots missed the brain.
That cranky old bastard Will is right. There is no such thing as too much gun when you are amongst them...or whatever he babbles about.

If you hit an elephant too high over the brain, no caliber is large enough to stop it or knock it down. That part of the head is a honeycomb of airspace and thin bones evolutionary designed to absorb shock from head to head fights between elephants. If you know your anatomy it is obvious. That is why if you see an ele show little or no reaction to a frontal head shot with an adequate caliber, you are safe to assume that it was too high.

465H&H

I don't agree. If you miss the brain you will not kill it, but I think that the larger the caliber the better chance you have at stopping, turning or at least slowing down the charge.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Knowing mike personally

Oh brother, does this qualify you for a signed 8 by 10 glossy, or something?

If it does, I want one too. Mike and I shot together with Rusty and the crew in Texas a couple of years back and Mike and I even work in the same industry.

I want a signed 8x10 glossy of a still of the second shot, with the elephant going down.

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

She barely flinched at the first, stumbled on the second, out for the count from the third and all the time in the world to put in a finishing shot.
This didn't happen.

Mike,

Great show.

Out of interest, what type of bullets were used in the .416 and in the .500?

Were any bullets retrieved?

Warrior

I was shooting Woodleighs. Buzz shoots whatever clients leave. In this instance I believe he was carrying Barnes Banded Solids. We recovered one of the Woodleighs. It was perfectly shaped and ready to be reloaded.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I was shooting Woodleighs. Buzz shoots whatever clients leave. In this instance I believe he was carrying Barnes Banded Solids. We recovered one of the Woodleighs. It was perfectly shaped and ready to be reloaded.

For many years now countless folks on this forum have agonized on what bullet, load, velocity, etc is best for ele hunting.

Sometimes these discussions get quite heated and dare I say nasty.

I would like to ask the question, "what does one of the most respected ele PH use"?

I think Mike has just provided the answer for me in his post above......

"Buzz shoots whatever clients leave".

Problem solved, no need to get too technical, eh?

Thanks Mike, a real fine video.

Concerning our misshap with the cow :"

quote You :"
We probably all remember the story of Buzz’s French client who got pinned by an elephant cow resulting in some broken ribs, but managed to return to the field in short order to successfully bag an outstanding Croc in Mozambique. I saw the footage and was shocked at how close this guy came to being killed. First off, he was not the hunter on this tuskless hunt, but just the unarmed companion tagging along. The hunter was attempting to take a tuskless with a bow and arrow when a tusked cow suddenly charged barreling straight at Buzz and his client. The client with a bow and arrow in his hands was useless and got out of the way leaving Buzz to fire his 416 Rigby straight into the head of the charging cow. He shot at perhaps seven yards away, but hit too high obviously missing the brain. I swear it looks like that elephant blinked, but it kept coming at full speed. Buzz just barely missed being run over when he side stepped like a matador at a bull fighting match. Buzz immediately reloaded, but his Ruger jammed delaying his second shot. The elephant went straight for the unarmed companion ramming him to the ground attempting to crush and tusk him. Luckily for him the tusks missed, but the elephant then picked him up with its ivory and flicked him about 20 feet to the right. It is dusty and you have to watch it in slow motion, but you can clearly see the guy being tossed through the air like a sack of potatoes. The elephant also bit his thumb crushing it. I only watched it a couple of times and the action is extremely fast, but it is obvious that this incident could have easily ended up with a fatality.

I took away a couple of things after viewing this video. First, do not ever hunt a tuskless elephant with a bow and arrow. It is a stupid thing to do. The risk of an unprovoked charge while hunting a tuskless is quite real and having two powerful rifles ready to respond is better than only one. Secondly, you must hit the brain if you want to be certain to stop any charging animal. Buzz’s 416 Rigby was not a stopper in this incident."



The cow came first for intimidation but stopped at 25m for displaying her show. That was too far for a solid shot with the bow and it was the second day of the safari. I wanted to shoot a cow at 20m at least, preferably at 10m. We let her get away. Less than one minute later she came back full tilt but I didn't think that that was for real. At the last moment I didn't have time to shoot with the bow. It'd have been an unique experience, though it's no big deal to shoot a football sized brain at 10m. I currently shoot running boars in France. It was unfortune that for the first time Buzz didn't shoot perfectly straight. Luc was filming and his vision was channeled, that's why he reacted (if ever) too late.
In fact at this moment we couldn't imagine that Buzz would have to shoot, even less that the shot would be inefficient.
Anyhow Luc, a strong guy, has fully recovered. He feels very happy from this unique experience, and is eager to shoot an ele cow in retaliation. More than ever, I'll go bowhunting ele again with him, adrenaline guaranteed.
This charge was very impressive. Moreover we also have Luc's video that is almost as impressive.
One has to insist on the absolute courage of Justin that kept on filming all the way.
What You ignor is that when in Moz 2 weeks later, every day we were bullied by elephant.
And with a bow in hand it's nerves' shattering.
A couple of times we were pursuited when in the truck, what's bad when slowly driving in a sand river. We were trapped on a little peninsula of the Cabossa lake by a herd, option between joining the crocs in the lake or shooting the coming herd. The worse was when croc bowhunting at night and a herd of elephant was coming, at this moment one feels desperate.
Some times I did regret not have brought my 470, for this safari, I only had 2 bows.
I can't wait to be with Buzz again for unique experiences, close and personnal.

quote:

It was unfortune that for the first time Buzz didn't shoot perfectly straight.

This really is a comedy routine, isn't it?

jbderunz,

Ok, you are not stupid, just crazy! I think everyone that hunts dangerous game is a bit of an adrenaline junkie, some more than others. I do believe I would like to go along some day and watch you try and shoot a tuskless with your bow as long as I have a 458 Lott with me. Good luck and is there anyway you can post that video so the rest of the AR fraternity can see I am not just blowing smoke?

Cheers,

Mike Core

P.S. You are right again, Justin is a stud for hanging in there and catching those charges as well as he did and Luc just might be as crazy as you are.

quote:

Originally posted by BigBoreCore:
jbderunz,

Ok, you are not stupid, just crazy! I think everyone that hunts dangerous game is a bit of an adrenaline junkie, some more than others. I do believe I would like to go along some day and watch you try and shoot a tuskless with your bow as long as I have a 458 Lott with me. Good luck and is there anyway you can post that video so the rest of the AR fraternity can see I am not just blowing smoke?

Cheers,

Mike Core

P.S. You are right again, Justin is a stud for hanging in there and catching those charges as well as he did and Luc just might be as crazy as you are.

BBC:

A bowhunter who knows his business can do a better job than what we have just witnessed in the preceding clip - have you forgotten that posting on AR not so long ago of a single frontal brain shot on a bull ele (DRT) - sure as hell raised a lively debate

I think Mike's video might be the closest I've ever seen an elephant to going ass over teakettle!

That is one incredible video clip. Well done by both of you (and the cameraman too!).

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:
Thanks Mike, a real fine video.

The cow came first for intimidation.........
though it's no big deal to shoot a football sized brain at 10m......... I currently shoot running boars in France.

This is interesting. Are you saying it is possible to kill an elephant with a frontal brain shot with a bow and arrow?

A heart/lung shot, I can see how that is possible. But a brain shot? I did not know that any conventional archery equipment was capable of doing that. The other three fellows that I hunt with are avid archers but I tend to zone out when they start discussing archery topics.

dear Friends

I agree that I am getting more and more crazy. It began the fist time I hit Africa with (protected) ele chasing us, then in the CAR with squads of Sudanese rigged with AK47 playing hide and seek with us, let alone the numerous bufs and els maimed from this poachers in the jungle.
Buzz is very pleased to approach game at 10-20m (ele, buf, croc, hippo...)and has fun at looking for troubles or hardships. With bow and arrow the yielding is pathetic, but the satisfaction is exhilarating.
Considering the brain shot, I think that's definitely possible, especially the side brain shot, with a 100" bow and top broadheads. It requires lots and lots of tuning and training, what renders the safari more captiving. Tom Dyer managed to bag a top trophee ele bull with the bow and arrow in June 2009.
Sorry for leaving You during 2 weeks, the wife needs to be cared of , tomorrow Indonesia......with no hunt at all .
kind regards

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:
dear Friends

I agree that I am getting more and more crazy. It began the fist time I hit Africa with (protected) ele chasing us, then in the CAR with squads of Sudanese rigged with AK47 playing hide and seek with us, let alone the numerous bufs and els maimed from this poachers in the jungle.
Buzz is very pleased to approach game at 10-20m (ele, buf, croc, hippo...)and has fun at looking for troubles or hardships. With bow and arrow the yielding is pathetic, but the satisfaction is exhilarating.
Considering the brain shot, I think that's definitely possible, especially the side brain shot, with a 100" bow and top broadheads. It requires lots and lots of tuning and training, what renders the safari more captiving. Tom Dyer managed to bag a top trophee ele bull with the bow and arrow in June 2009.
Sorry for leaving You during 2 weeks, the wife needs to be cared of , tomorrow Indonesia......with no hunt at all .
kind regards

There's a death wish in all hunters. Mine just doesn't involve a bow & arrow. Maybe I'm crazy. Mike

I believe it has nothing to do with death wish and I bet JB was more alive there, than anytime in his life. Is it crazy - perhaps - and since JB admits it might be so - however I've seen a couple of my good friends that were alpinists behaving in similar manner - it was their way of life - they didn't know better and were well avare of dangers they might face and if so be it - get that last one way ticket. It is hard to understand but once you met a guy like that, you see that is the only way that they can operate at all - any other way is just starving to death for them. I believe the early explorers had a lot in common with those guys...

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
I think Mike's video might be the closest I've ever seen an elephant to going ass over teakettle!

You should see this - Dobbs (client) was bow hunting plains game in Save when they stumbled upon a bull in musth - PH (Gordon Duncan) gave one over the Ele's head then one for the home run - rifle is Brno .375 H&H.

I tried to slow down the one portion where I could see the rifles receiver, this was not your Sabatti was it?

Hi Mike

Welcome home Mike and well done again on an outstanding hunt with Dean. Unfortunately when you viewed the videos of the various hunts I was not there as as you know Justin filmed your first day due to the over lap with Ray who was filming Swen and Malisa.

I am sorry I was not there as I would have put the record straight. Firstly, Mike videos shown in camp are shown in the “heat of the moment” as such and it is a nice talking point and certainly a nice way to tweak the anticipation of your hunt. They are however not shown for later public discussion. I really feel that when posting about other fellow hunters then some discretion should be shown. While I feel that the AR is an outstanding forum to gather info etc I have to say I am not too partial to the back stabbing and negative comments at others expenses. It is unfortunately this trait that has driven away a number of valuable contributors to this site.

Matt, who was the Aussie fellow that you referred to, who hunted with Milo is an outstanding and accomplished hunter. Mike, you should know having experienced a charge with Alan yourself , that one never really knows exactly what one will do when the chips are down and believe me ones reaction one day may very not be once reaction the next day under exactly the same situation. I do agree that a scope on a double rifle hunting ele cows is questionable however I refrain from comment as I have not chatted to Matt about it and like you he may have an eye issue that enforces him to use a scope.

As for Jb’s hunt. Jb is a good mate an outstanding bow hunter. He is extremely capable and dedicates a huge amount of time to practicing and as a result is very proficient with a 100lbs bow which very few people in the world can claim. On our hunt things turned nasty very quickly and when the cow charged I actually shot UNDER the brain and not over. The second round did not jam as you stated. I had just enough time to side step out the way before reloading turning around and braining the cow which had already knocked over Luc who sustained sever injuries in the few seconds.

Luckily when I brained the cow with the second shot she fell away from Luc rather then on top of him. I then wanted to put in a 3rd shot in the already dead ele and it was this round that I had a problem with. It was a flat nosed solid which I personally do not like as they have a habit of catching on the magazine lip and not feeding. As a result I try not to use them any more. I was also concerned that over the last 15 odd years of using my 416 day in day out that the spring may be a touch weak so had Matt from Aussie kindly bring out a new one for me.

As for Luc he has made a wonderful recovery. He is an amazing character who always looks at the positive aspects of things- to sum it up he discharged himself from hospital with several broken ribs and a newly recovered deflated lung- to go into Moz to hunt hippo and croc. Lucs main concern was that ”should he fall off the boat into the lake he would not float with his deflated lung!!” Jb- I look forward to hunting with him again and shooting an ele with the bow- However one lesson I have learnt is that it will be a bull and not a cow. Hunting Elephant cows with Bow is just too dangerous as to get into a suitable situation to put in a successful arrow into a particular cow one puts themselves too often in the front line.

Bottom line Mike I would like to have seen a bit more thought going into your post, one must remember that when one posts negative comments about fellow hunters that it is damaging to the industry as a whole and they like you love their hunting, do their best and support the same cause as the rest of us.

While I am here commenting on ele charges etc I will digress a little and say that when the above post is read one would have the tendency to think that I encourage charges. The reason I bring this up is there are a few other African Hunters Associations and individuals that have lodged complaints to that effect. I am also very aware of Mark Sullivans banning from SCI for what they term” questionable behavior” so am sensitive about the subject. What people do not realize is that hunting ele cows is with out doubt the most dangerous form of hunting. Unlike buff, lion leopard and ele bulls an unprovoked charge is not uncommon. It is also a numbers game.

The average Zim Ph hunts probably an elephant a year, more then likely a bull. I have averaged over 25 elephant a season, of which 20 will be tuskless cows, and I have done so for the last 10 years plus. Some seasons have been over 30 like last season. This is not by any means a bragging point but just a point to illustrate that due to numbers of encounters on a daily basis with elephant cows that I will be subjected to many more incidences then your avearage Ph and certainly a lot more then the Ph represented by the Associations North of Zimbabwe who do not even hunt elephant cows! The fact that I document the cases in the form of dvds also makes it more open to public discussion.

I have also noticed a marked change in attitude from elephant cows in the last couple of season. They are with out doubt far more aggressive and the reason for this is a huge increase in poaching. In the last 3 hunts alone I have found 10 fresh carcasses of elephant. I firmly believe that our eles are under a huge amount of stress and their fight rather then flight attitude is stimulated by the threat that they are presently under. I have seen this in Mozambique where I found the elephant ( as JB said) far more aggressive then in Zim no doubt due to decades of intense poaching.

I am setting off tomorrow for another ele hunt so will be unable to comment for two weeks. Happy Hunting!

Very nice post Buzz and may you and your 416 continue to perform as well for the next 15 years.

So I do not have to throw my .416Rigby away and buy something that starts with a .5 after all before I undertake my first
Ele hunt! Great!

Being from Tennessee I am sure you are familiar with Davy Crockett's famous quote, "Since you have chosen to elect a man with a timber toe to succeed me, you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas.”

If I may be allowed to turn the phrase, "Since some of you have chosen to hunt elephant with inferior calibers, you may all go to hell while I continue to use my .500 NE."

saw the video and was totally impressed with conduct of PH and client.

well shot on both counts and Buzz was cool as a cucumber. very very impressive shooting and tactics.

I would have been in pieces after that one...who knows maybe i'll get the chance one day

cheers, TM

Hi Guys

Just to clarify that the Mike I refer to is not Mike Jines but Mike "aka" Bigborecore. Sorry Mike Jines I did not mean for there to be any confusion there! Cheers Buzz

Hi Buzz,

I plan to hunt with you again! My short little safari with you and your crew was bar none, the best.

Hi Buzz,

I didn't mean to infer that you might be in an Mark Sullivan type category and in fact your videos plainly show that all charges were spontaneous and not somehow encouraged by any particular hunting method.
Don't be too hard on Justin for my post as he is definitely a stellar stud for hanging in there and getting that footage under extreme circumstances. It was exciting and educational to watch and enlivened my sense of awareness on my own hunt. I do believe though that you make everyone sign a waiver when filming their hunts so you might be able to use them in producing a future video. That makes them free game for public discussion so if you want to avoid my type of post in the future then don't show them in camp. That footage was too compelling not to write a post about.
I do not backstab. I only do full frontal assaults similar in subtlety to the ele cow that charged you and Mike Jines. As far as being critical to fellow hunters, I do believe I praised some outstanding performances (You, Mike Jines, Luc and Myles) and stated IMO (in my opinion which you are free to blow off) that some were foolish and stupid. I later modified my post in response to JB agreeing he was crazy and not stupid. His post was very good natured and he seems like the type of guy I would like to hunt with. The Aussie guy was not named or his image shown so nobody would know who he was. I did ask Oz Hunter if he could get me his email to make sure there were no hard feelings over my post, but he doesn't have it and stated that he (the Aussie guy)isn't on AR anyway.
I apoligise if I got a few of the facts wrong in describing the charges, but I only saw them twice on a laptop in camp.
Since you are the Man when it comes to hunting tuskless elephant cows I would like to suggest that your next video focus exclusively on that subject. You have got some fantastic footage that is both exciting and informative. Combine it with your extensive knowledge and experience I am sure the final result would be excellence.
Good luck with the rest of the season and I will see you in Reno.

Mike

Beats me what you have to apologize for.

Every video out there is trying to dramatize charges. Like sex, it is what sells. To pretend otherwise seems a bit disingenuous to me.

Look at all the videos playing at the shows. Just continuous charges. Now charges are somehow an intimate, personal experience? Until the next video hits the shelves I suppose.

Will,

To hunt the tuskless is indeed a dangerous game and all that play it are fully aware of the potential risks. Bit like playing with fire. Charges are part and parcel of this type of hunting and there are some who will get injured and a few who will be killed, hence the word dangerous.

Buzz made his name by the hunting of these aggressive cows and by all accounts is an outstanding professional. In these hard times if he can make a few bob from portraying his adventures on the big screen then so be it.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
I believe it has nothing to do with death wish and I bet JB was more alive there, than anytime in his life. Is it crazy - perhaps - and since JB admits it might be so - however I've seen a couple of my good friends that were alpinists behaving in similar manner - it was their way of life - they didn't know better and were well avare of dangers they might face and if so be it - get that last one way ticket. It is hard to understand but once you met a guy like that, you see that is the only way that they can operate at all - any other way is just starving to death for them. I believe the early explorers had a lot in common with those guys...

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:
I think Mike's video might be the closest I've ever seen an elephant to going ass over teakettle!

You should see this - Dobbs (client) was bow hunting plains game in Save when they stumbled upon a bull in musth - PH (Gordon Duncan) gave one over the Ele's head then one for the home run - rifle is Brno .375 H&H.

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Razor Dobbs is without doubt the most pathetic individual I have ever met. A little man who wants to prove something. His website and videos are the worst possible advertisement for hunting on the planet - yes, including Mark Sullivan's. My only regret is that when I met him he was a visiting client to my country and so I had to mind my mouth.

It may be so. Anyway I have mentioned him just to make it clear that it is a PH and not him, that is doing the shooting part.

Sorry, there are few names that get me as worked up as his does. I'm sure he doesn't care.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:
Sorry, there are few names that get me as worked up as his does. I'm sure he doesn't care.

You stick to your guns mate.

I can't believe the video clip on Razor Dobbs. Who the hell would buy a Razor Dobbs signature watch?