Does anyone have any actual pressure data or a Quickload/Load From a Disk analysis for the 404 Jeffery? Specifically of interest is the 400 grain bullet with IMR-4831 and a velocity of 2650 fps. Don G where are you? Make me eat crow, please.

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RAB

waitaminit, Don G, anybody,
How about 95 grains of IMR-4831 and a velocity of 2662 fps? Any predicted pressures with a 400 grain bullet?

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RAB

Quickload for .404 Jeff:

400 gr Woodleigh FMJ, 95 gr IMR 4831:
63800 psi = 4400 bar, 2584 f/s.

400 gr Woodleigh Weldcore SN, 95 gr IMR 4831:
58200 psi , 2538 f/s.

Both are dangerous (high pressure) and compressed loads.

BTW: Quickload data from scratch like above are not for trust in any case. Quickloads intention is to start with known or measured data and to calculate for load development.

Dr. Norbert Hansen,

Thanks for the numbers. Of course these programs cannot take into account all the variables. Some real pressure numbers would be nice, eh?

I read your article "Solid Penetration" in the latest _Hatari Times_. Nice work. It seems the super cavitation concept would support why the GS Custom FN works so well also. Your SuperPenetrator should be a winner. will anyone be producing these for sale?

I had all the basic engineering courses including fluid mechanics as part of a chemical engineering curiculum turned medical, but it has been so long ago, I do not recall all the concepts. I was curious about the field your doctorate is in?

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RAB

RAB,
> Of course these programs cannot take into account all the variables.
-And the thermodynamical approach is only one of the possible models of interior ballistics.

>Some real pressure numbers would be nice, eh?
-I hope that we can get an affordable pressure measuring device soon.(UK manufacturer)

> It seems the super cavitation concept would support why the GS Custom FN works so well also.
-Some observations on FN bullets are more understandable with the supercavitation concept. Especially with bullets, which are generating a cavitation disk on impact like GS FN or Norfolk cup nose. But that nose is formed a little by chance. The SuperPenetrator is optimized for a stable flight in aqueous tissue and sufficient penetration in bone etc. with fixed dimensions.

>will anyone be producing these for sale?
-May be, if optimizing is finished and more testing in the field is done. For the Lott we need lead core bullets!

>I had all the basic engineering courses including fluid mechanics as part of a chemical engineering curiculum turned medical, but it has been so long ago, I do not recall all the concepts.
-The supercavitation as a theoretical concept is relative new in the scientific dicussion. Disclosure of the Kursk torpedos was like the Sputnik effect. But the method of stabilizing fast travelling objects in water is well known since decades. (Underwater bombs and anti sea mine projectiles).
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Norbert

Horsehockey, I been shooting that load in 404's for 20 plus years, brass lasts indefinately...that 2662 velocity was chronographed out of my 27" barrel Jefferys gun. 10 shots and 5 shot ave. and I have chronograped the 404 many times with many loads..I got the load from Holt Boddington. He tested it throughly I'm sure. It is his pet load and he got simular velocity.

I mic my brass at the expansion point, watch primers, and keep track on trimmings..these loads show needing triming every third fireing, but for a 404 with the tapered body they need the same with factory, one of the pitfalls of a 404..brass has lasted as much as 16 loading with RWS and 12 with Bell and Norma..

But like I have always said thats too fast and recoil is way up there so I load 90 to 93 grs or so and let it go at that..That 90 load gives me near 2430 FPS, a velocity that I prefer.

That ain't hype and it ain't BS, just fact based on my experience with the caliber for quite some time. If you got a problem with it then shoot something else, play switch finger or whatever. I sure don't recall ever referring to one of your posts as BS...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

/

Ray,
Finally got your attention. See your previous post on the reloading forum about 404 J recipes.

You showed some good loads giving about 22 fps velocity increase for each grain of powder up to 93 grains I believe I recall. After that the velocity increase went up by 111 fps for each grain of powder added, up to the 2662 fps for the 95 grains of IMR-4831 load, if I recall correctly.

Like Alf, I am puzzled by this phenomenon. Hype and BS is all I could come up with to explain it, unless it is excessive pressure.

BTW, how do YOU play switch finger when YOU play it? Is that a Texan game?

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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 04-17-2002).]

Go load it, shoot it, Do some work with the gun, then we will talk..

In the meantime I show in my record book as follows;

87 grs 2316 av.
90 " 2370 "
93 " 2462 "

95 " 2662 " big jump but does not indicate pressure.

A 22" with a KDF 404 clocked 166 FPS slower with the 95 gr. load at 2496 FPS

and I have pages of the above and all are a little different depending on which 404 I was shooting at the time. I have not kept very good records on barrl lenth.

By the same token I have chronographed these loads.

78 RL-15 2475
79 RL-15 2475 also
76 RL-15 2200 So again you see the same jump that you cannot explain, but the pressure isn't there.

Now if you genie's are correct, is it not applicapble that I would have blown something up by now or have headspace in a rifle or something after 20 years...Or perhaps you spend too much time playing the paper game.

Don't talk about my mama and leave my 404 alone, you'll permently get on my bad side and I can compete with Mikie from Aussie land.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Alf,
95 grs will fill a case to about 1/2 way up the neck, soooooo!

I'll betcha lots of 270 are full to the top tapped and more powder put in...with 4831..Try 60 grs...

One would be hard pressed to get into trouble with any of the 4831 powders.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Well, Ah'll be gill flurted! Ah still don't know what "switch finger" means, 'less hits ta shoot a double rifle. Seems to me that would be called playing "switch trigger," ya know, same finger, diffurnt trigger?
The thought of Ray playing switch finger with his Sweet Thang ... well less not go theyah! Ah know what Art Alphin would say about those RL-15 loads, but less not go theyah eetha.

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RAB

Dagga,
You knows whea Art Alphins been, you ben dare. naw you can switch da fingas, nobody be looken. deys wher ya been since ya started dis stupid thread.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

/

Alf,

A couple of points.

Firstly, I don't know what bullet Ray uses, but I would imagine if 95 grains comes to 12 mm (1/2 inch) of the mouth of the case, a 400 grain Woodleigh should be able to be seated with reasonable compression. Perhaps the 300 and something grain Flat Nose solid he uses would be OK too. I seem to remember him talking about thee 2 bullets and also be against Barnes X bullets.

Secondly, my experience has been (using an Oehler 35) that quite often velocity per grain actually falls off when high pressure is reached and in some cases there appears to be no velocity gain.

On the other hand with reduced loads, velocity gain per grain can increase as the load is increased.

Mike

Alf,
Thanks. I like that "poor man's pressure guide" concept. The V/C ratio would be an integration of the v/c differential I was looking at. There are good discussions of similar concepts on this thread:

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/004506.html

KentuckyFisherman has a whale of a good post there, along these lines.

Ray,
Get off the high horse and join the human race. Live and learn. Don't piss down my back and tell me it is raining. As for your mother, I suggest you leave her out of this. Please.

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RAB

Mike375,
Good to see you jumping in here. The more the merrier.

Read KentuckyFisherman's post in the thread I linked above. Your comment is covered there, and while you are certainly correct, it must be considered in the proper context and relationship to the current topic and the part of the curve you are observing.

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RAB

Slow down, guys. I'm still trying to find that page in my high school physics book!

Bottom line (for me) is, I'm going to load as much powder as it takes (either H or IMR 4831)to achieve a velocity somewhere between 2350 and 2400 fps in a 24-inch barrel with a 400-grain Woodleigh. From what I've been reading, this can be done fairly safely.

Now, you boys can go out back and scrap if you wanna. I'm going back to work on the loading bench.

Since I have gotten a chronogragh I have seen large jumps in velocity like 200 fps at what you would think would be a mild load , particularly with powders that are quite slow for the case/bullet combination such as that with the .404 and 4831 . I believe this is because the addition of a couple of grains will finally boost you from very light pressure towards a more normal 60000 psi and you are getting a more complete burn of the powder . THEN , the curve will flatten out and you will see a steady increase in fps per grain of powder until you go overboard and the pressure starts to spike .......

I don't doubt that Ray's loads are safe in his rifle , note also he has a 27 inch barrel . I do doubt like hell that you could ever get enough 4831 into a .404 case to seriously damage a rifle ........

/

All I can tell you is that 95 grs. of IMR-4831 is the most accurate load that I have ever shot in most 404's..thats my chronograph readings, pressure is not there from all signs and primer pockets don't open..

I don't appreciate the BS/hype remark in the title of this thread, it ticked me off and was uncalled for. I foolishly let it get under my coller a bit, but then I have always been a warrior of sorts. Sorry!

Hi Mike, glad your goat smelling a$$ is back, I have actually missed your charm and wit, these guys need policing.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
If you are going to fling it, you should be prepared to catch it, right back at you now and then. This peon has certainly had some fun getting the lord's attention.

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RAB

Alf and Ron,

One thing that always must be considered is individual rifles.

I owned a 416 Rem for a while just after they came out. Factory ammo did just over 2400 f/s.

With Re 15 (and I think Varget, not sure) I easily got to 2450 plus with 400 Hornadies and as I increased the charge after that velocity gain was extremely small.

The 416 Rem is a close as I have been to the 404 (except for books and other written material ) and on that basis I would have to agree with Sdgunslinger that generating loads with excessive pressure using 4831 would not happen.

Ray, was what I said true that were using the 400 Woodleighs and the flat nose solids in your 404?

Mike.

PS. We had Varget way back then as Varget is the Australian powder AR 2208.

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 04-18-2002).]

/

Alf,

I find myself in the position of having to agree with Ray on some of his view points.

No disrespect meant, but when I hear shooters deciding between primer flow and case head expansion etc. etc. I am usually talking to someone who has done far more reading than actual firing. Or if they have done a lot of firing they have not been to the edge.

I turned 54 on March 30 and grew up with guns. My father was a shooter but until I was about 15 it was 32/20 and 303 and then he bought a magazine out here that was called Outdoors and my youthful enthusiasm took over. Then we saw 243 etc.

The way some of you blokes talk is the same as I was at about age 16 or 17. I remember that so clearly because my father was a motor mechanic and he bought me a micrometer for my own use....you guessed it...for measuring case head expansion.

I think Ray will agree with me on a couple of points.

That is, you can almost feel a load is too high pressure. You also seem to have a knack of how deep to seat a bullet in a case for accuracy etc. etc. etc. Kind of like driving a manual car. Your hand, foot, car speed etc just all falls into place.

Mike

/

/

Alf,

I was specific that talk about deciding between primers and case expansion etc. reminded me of when I was 16 or 17, because that is exactly what I was doing at that stage. I did not refer to 16 and 17 year olds in general.

It is like someone learning to drive a manual car that has a rev counter, and because they read car books, they check the rev counter and speedometer before they change gear. Of course, after they gain experience in traffic and so on, all of this becomes unecessary.

As to Ray's velocities, well, they seem on the high side to me. But he has a 27 inch barrel and a slightly larger bore than 416. If the 404 case is a bit bigger than a 416 Rem (is it, I don't know, I imagine they would be similar incapacity) then that plus the bigger bore and 27 inch barrel would put it at 2600 plus since 416 Rems will do 2500 from a 24 inch barrel with 400 grainers.

But I would come back to the point that I don't think an experienced reloader needs to measure case head expansion or have a straing guage to tell if pressure is too high for his rifle and cases. Actually a strain gauge of course won't take into account brass.

In addition, my experience has generally been that calibers that have a small case capacity in relation to the bore size, such as 375, 416 or 404, generally lose accuracy at lower pressures than do calibers with big capacities for the bore size.

On the proviso that Ray is not lying about his 404, I would not have the slightest problem shooting his rifle from the shoulder and without my glasses on.

As to flaming, this thread seems quite mild to me. However, I do agree with Ray that the thread topic was either designed with that in mind or the topic heading was used due to ignorance.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 04-18-2002).]

Someone please help me out here. Lothar Walter makes it 404 barrels in two flavors. One for the European market with a .418 GROOVE diameter & another for the American market with a .423 GROOVE diameter. What's the reason for this & which one would you guys choose if you were building a 404ne.
I'm guessing the .418 groove diameter if you want to use the wide selection on .416 bullets available compared to the rather limited selection of .423 bullets. I need some clearification please

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Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

[This message has been edited by Bear Claw (edited 04-18-2002).]

/

Thank you for the help Alf. In the case of reloading dies which bullet diameter is the sizer die made for? If you have a .418 (groove) diameter barrel can you shoot factory ammo in it? Is 404 factory stuff loaded in the two different diameters? (I wish they had an icon for a guy scratching his head)!

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Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

Bearclaw,

In just about every discussion of the 404 Jeffery in this country, we are talking about a .423 bore. Every component that I've been able to find is .423. I think you would be hard pressed to find a .418 Jeffery, but then again, I've been wrong before.

Thanks to all for their contributions to this thread. I reckon I am too ignorant to say more, but it seems things have been covered adequately.

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RAB

/

Atkinson...why do you get so volatile over petty desputes? It seems you're easy to piss off, esp. regarding the 404 or anything having to do with WJ Jeffery.

Jargermister.......I don't really think that Mr. Atkinson is as you say "Pissed OFF" however if he were really pissed off, I do believe he would pull that Jack Palance stunt and your pants legs would be wringing wet LOL.

Mike375,

What would happen if the brass in that 404 was annealed?

If that is what Ray gets I say good for him. It might be his 27" barrel or not who cares. Try his load in you rifle and see what you get! That is were it counts isn't it! Hell I have seen the same load read 150 fps different between to "identical" rifles. By identical I mean same barrel length and make. There are so many variables to consider it is almost idoitic to argue about it. Maybe Ray has a "wonder gun" that just is smoother than sh_t through a goose.

Sorry RAB, but I see no point in all this petty bickering.

Todd E

[This message has been edited by Todd E (edited 04-19-2002).]

Gentlemen,
Rays not pissed off, if I were it would be much more volatile...I have said things like don't talk about my mama and my Jefferys with tongue in cheek. A speck of boredom got in the way and the devil makes me do things, when that happens and sometimes my sick humor irrates some folks to no end, but what you see is what you get around here....

Alf,
I suspect that if you shot a factory load at the original 2150 FPS in a 418 bore you might need a sledge hammer to open the bolt. Surely that wasn't a very valid point...All 404's and even my 10.74 x68 rechambered to 404 mikes .423 I hope!! BTW I shot that 95 gr. load in that old 10x75 Mauser and it didn't bother it, but my lip fluttered for 30 minutes and I had a stutter for two days. Its a guild rifle and weighs little.

Maybe I'm a proponent of P.O. Ackley and live more on the edge than some of you..You know load up one grain at a time until you get a sticky bolt of blown primer, then back off 2 grs. Perhaps I have a fast barrel and surly all of you are aware a barrel can vary 100 FPS between calibers and at 27"'s there is nothing to get in an uproar about...

My suggestion is that instead of sitting around popping your bills like a sack full of old ducks that you sit down at the loading bench with your 404 cases and work up a load with IMR-4831 starting at 90 grs. and see what your gun will do and how much brass lies below your belt

Now tell me honestly, wouldn't that make more since than this thread. The first one to 2600 FPS gets a free steak on me at the next SCI convention.

MIke,
Sorry for the late reply. I do use Woodleigh solids and softs and the GS FN solids...Reckon I could pick up another 100FPS with the GS solids, I'm betting I could, but I'll never tell, it might stir things up a bit, with these weak harted harlots.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

/

I just bet that If I could get Lothar Walter to make me a 404 barrel with Polygon rifling that I would see velocity increases with all the loads. What do you'll think?

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Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

Alf,
A mod 98 Mauser is perfectly capable of such pressures, It was as strong then as it is now and I have NOT shown any irresponsible loads on this or any other forum..I don't know where you came up with all that hooey about the 404 being a low pressure round, it was simply loaded as such and with todays brass it is perfectly caplable of the same pressures of any other rifle, consistant with proper reloading techniques.

My 1920 Guild rifle handles these laods just fine and if you think a Mod 98 Mauser is only capable of 36,000 PSI, then there are a lot of folks around here in trouble. The only 404's I know of were built on M-98 actions and with .423 bores...

What applies to the 404 equally applies to the original 416 Rigby, so cut the verbal ca-ca, it sounds good, but is without substance.

Furthermore I do not buy off on your calculated pressure ratings, based on the fact that I am getting long case life, no expansion in my primer pockets and easy extraction...

Again I suggest that you try loading up a max load in your rifle before calling my loads irresponsible, and particulary with any 4831 powder!! for goodness sake. to arbatraily come up with that remark was a bit arrogant on your part without at least doing some experimentation.

As a side note on "my rifle" and I emphasize "my rifle" when working up a load I couldn't get enough powder in the case to stick my bolt or open a primer pocket. I did get a slight ejector mark. My rifle is a Obendorf action with built up double square bridges and the other one is a 10.75 x68 Guild rifle M=98 rechambered to 404 by John Ricks (1920)...Thoes old single C ring actions that you call soft are some of the best actions ever made IMHO...

I will say this for the record and I have always adhered to this and that is any reloader should start below max and work up from there using proper procedures and anyone who does not is foolish and that applies to any load ever given on this board. However,I don't think these guys are as dumb as you seem to indicate they are, and if they are, ain't nobody gonna save'em anyway.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com