quote:

Originally posted by Matt Norman:

.......<snip>...........

What are we to do? All simply quit and let all the good stuff go down the tubes? Are any of you taking your time and financial support to some other alternate organization? Please let me know what the more pure and effective such organization is and I will be there too.

Matt Norman
SCI Life
NRA Life

Well, I don't know how "pure" they are, but we in Texas are fortunate to have the Dallas Safari Club and the Houston Safari Club. I decided not to renew my membership in SCI. I am a member of the Houston Safari Club and I have decided to spend my time and financial support with them.

Just my two cents.....
-Bob F.

Dallas Safari Club http://www.biggame.org/
Houston Safari Club http://www.houstonsafariclub.org/

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

quote:

SCI has been presented with a copy of the Zimbabwe declaration concerning OOA, and the Zimbabwe National Parks ruling which bans OOA from Zimbabwe. Yet SCI national kept auctioning the OOA donated hunts.

The auctioned hunts mentioned; Does OoA only operate in Zim or are they trans-Africa? Are some of these auctioned hunts (via S.C.I.) in other African locales than Zim.?

DB

What auctioned hunt are you talking about? None was auctioned at the recent Reno Convention. The Ooa donation hunt was withdrawn. Know what you are blathering about? Nah. Much more fun to spout off without knowing the facts, isn't it.

Mike - Is the statement that one Kevin Anderson represents both SCI and OOA correct or has it ever been correct? Bob Butler.

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:
For those that thinks SCI doesn't protect OOA ---

Legal councel for SCI's task force is kevin Anderson-
guess who's OOA's attorney is?????
thats' right Kevin Anderson
:

This tells us about all we need to know about SCI's ethics.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

quote:

SCI has been presented with a copy of the Zimbabwe declaration concerning OOA, and the Zimbabwe National Parks ruling which bans OOA from Zimbabwe. Yet SCI national kept auctioning the OOA donated hunts.

The auctioned hunts mentioned; Does OoA only operate in Zim or are they trans-Africa? Are some of these auctioned hunts (via S.C.I.) in other African locales than Zim.?

DB

What auctioned hunt are you talking about? None was auctioned at the recent Reno Convention. The Ooa donation hunt was withdrawn. Know what you are blathering about? Nah. Much more fun to spout off without knowing the facts, isn't it.

Patrkyhntr, please get a brain. Was this your very first year to go to SCI or receive their publications?? SCI auctioned off OOA hunts AFTER being presented with the documents mentioned in my post above. They did it for several years in the past, including while serious complaints against OOA were pending. Your post seems to be referring to the lack of an OOA donated hunt at the Reno auctions in January, 2006. But guess what - SCI was in business and auctioning donated hunts even before 2006...

Actually it is my understanding that at the live action in Reno, OOA did in fact have a donated hunt auctioned off.

The hunt was not pre-listed anywhere to be offered---- that is odd don't you think?

At the Thursday afternoon auction, there was a hunt listed to be auctioned that was donated by OoA. It was prelisted at one time, but removed from the SCI website auction preview sometime in December. I suspect that was when it was withdrawn and a substitute hunt was put in its place. At that session the OoA hunt was still listed in the printed program. A piece of paper was on the table telling of the substitution. I checked as closely as I could at the Friday auction and didn't see anything from OoA there. If you know more, tell me. Were you there? I was.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
Mike - Is the statement that one Kevin Anderson represents both SCI and OOA correct or has it ever been correct? Bob Butler.

Unfortunatley I dont know. I have heard this rumour before but have not been able to substantiate it yet. I doubt anyone else here can either other than heresay.

Dan, All I hear is the same old arguments most of which still have not been be verified. I think that some verification of fact rather than inflamatory remarks would be more productive. I still think OOA is in it up to their eyeballs and also a few at international. My emphasis is on a few. IMHO the sooner this is resolved the better. If I took your line of reasoning on this I could say anyone who hunts in Zim is a poacher. I base this on the fact that the rule of law is a joke as long as Mugabe is in controll. An outfitter can hardly hunt in the country without bribing someone these days. Quotas seem to be a joke. Yet you have no problem hunting there. I dont either. This hardly makes either of us poachers. There are still a lot of good people in Zim. These folks depend on and need our support. Why is that any different? Anyway, you see where I am going with this. I just wish you would put this much energy into fixing the problem in a positive manner.

Mike- You earlier stated you had been working on the OOA thing for 4 years. How could you not know the answer to the above? It just doesn't make sense.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:
At the Thursday afternoon auction, there was a hunt listed to be auctioned that was donated by OoA. It was prelisted at one time, but removed from the SCI website auction preview sometime in December. I suspect that was when it was withdrawn and a substitute hunt was put in its place. At that session the OoA hunt was still listed in the printed program. A piece of paper was on the table telling of the substitution. I checked as closely as I could at the Friday auction and didn't see anything from OoA there. If you know more, tell me. Were you there? I was.

Thanks for giving us a first hand report.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
Mike- You earlier stated you had been working on the OOA thing for 4 years. How could you not know the answer to the above? It just doesn't make sense.

Hearing something is true and having some type of concrete proof are two different things. I have no documents proving this. It dosnt mean I dont believe it. Now for all you conpiracy theorists out there a couple of questions. If true does it prove anything other than they have the same lawyer? Yes, I understand all the inuendo and implication. Second who was first as someone has already asked. Does that then make SCI if first guilty by someone else having hired the same law firm? It does certainly look like a conflict of interest on the attorney's part. It strikes me more of Washington politics with political lobbying and influence peddling. I imagine that could possibly be a motive here dont you? So who would that be, SCI trying to influence OOA or the other way around?

I am not defending OOA. I am not defending SCI international on this issue as I dont like the way the whole thing has played out so far. What I am saying is put all this energy into proving all this and resolving the problem. Not as simple as typing on the internet.

Bob, Dallas Safari Club and Houston Safari club are both great organizations as well. I am glad to see you support them. However, to continue along the lines of this discussion OOA also exhibited and had auctions at Dallas after all this became public. I dont remember about Houston off the top of my head.
So who wants to throw the first stone here?
My point gentlemen is where do you decide to draw the line? We could keep adding to this but it is really pointless. Lets just say we agree on OOA and disagree on how best to resolve these isuues.

I was surprised how much resentment there is within the outfitter community in Africa towards SCI. I only met three, but they all were totally disenchanted with the men that sat at the head table for SCI. The outfitters claimed they were a bunch of hypocrites. They said in a number of their cases they were well known to have collected a number of their trophies through means other than fair chase. That seemed to be the sticking point with these guys, that the SCI fat cats were passing themselves off as great hunters, when they were essentially buying their accomplishments. Maybe that was sour grapes, but I couldn't see that the outfitters had anything to gain by their comments.

Personally I just don't like the emphasis on trophy scoring. I wish SCI would get away from that. I expect one day to read that someone "harvested" a big 380 or a really nice 175, or simply that it was a gold medal. No use describing the animal. He was unimportant. What the "hunter" really wanted was a gold star to wear, to impress his buds.

Kensco, Unfortunately you are right on the money with this statement.

Mike- Thanks. You have always posted here with thought and courtesy.If there are any members who have knowledge of these "relationships" please let's hear it.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
Personally I just don't like the emphasis on trophy scoring. I wish SCI would get away from that. I expect one day to read that someone "harvested" a big 380 or a really nice 175, or simply that it was a gold medal. No use describing the animal. He was unimportant. What the "hunter" really wanted was a gold star to wear, to impress his buds.

Every big game animal I have ever taken was and is a trophy to me. They will especially be so from Africa regardless of their "book score!"

You can't swing a dead cat over shoulders without hittin an attorney in this country

So what are the chances that OOA has as counsel an attorney also on the SCI's payroll ----by accident--?

Mike you have a PM

Certainly no accident! Machiavelli for a little light reading anyone?

Quickshot, I am truly sorry for what happened to you and your partner with regards to OOA. Hopefully it will all get sorted out eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:
You can't swing a dead cat over shoulders without hittin an attorney in this country

So what are the chances that OOA has as counsel an attorney also on the SCI's payroll ----by accident--?

Mike you have a PM

Quickshot and Mike Smith

For two guys who speak of insider knowledge you guys don't seem to know much about SCI and the way it is organized or operates.

The Legal Affairs Task Force is a voluntary Committee of Attorneys that donate their Time, and thus money, to Wildlife Issues in North America and around the World. They file briefs on behalf of SCI and Hunters for a variety of issues from the New Jersey Bear Hunt to the closure of Deer Hunting on Cape Cod.

Kevin Anderson, as Chairman of the Committee, or the Committee in General would have nothing to do with OoA or any of their problems.

Oh really Micke1?

open up the new 2006 Out of Africa Brochure and you my find it amusing that Mr. Anderson is plastered thoughout it with his recent trophies he shot with OOA.

maybe they are all just buddys?

quote:

Originally posted by quickshot:
Oh really Micke1?

open up the new 2006 Out of Africa Brochure and you my find it amusing that Mr. Anderson is plastered thoughout it with his recent trophies he shot with OOA.

maybe they are all just buddys?

How does hunting with them make him an employee of SCI?

quote:

quickshot Posted Feb 13, 7:53 PM
one of us

You can't swing a dead cat over shoulders without hittin an attorney in this country

So what are the chances that OOA has as counsel an attorney also on the SCI's payroll ----by accident--?

What part of Voluntary don't you understand?

Now I uderstand why the SCI ethics committe turns a blind eye to all that OaA do.

Voluntarily of course

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:

Dan, All I hear is the same old arguments most of which still have not been be verified.

Who are you trying to protect? The banning of OOA in Zim was verified to SCI 2 years ago.

It just amazes me to see so many from our ranks protecting poachers.

By the way, do you think OJ is innocent?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Now I uderstand why the SCI ethics committe turns a blind eye to all that OaA do.

Voluntarily of course

Saeed

Much as you turn a blind eye towards PVT and his fraudulent dealings?

Being a bit hypocritical today?

Quickshot

If you are going to make a statement make one that is correct.

You might want to check on who is on the Executive Committee though.

Mckey1
what part of my statement is incorrect?
I understand that the task force is voluntary and does a great service to SCI and hunters-I am not slamming them Mickey-

I am sure task force members are reimbursed for their travel expenses such as airfare lodging meals etc.. So yes, they are on the payroll---just not receiving a salary. Obviously, SCI gets hell of deal by just paying expenses and not paying full boat attorney fees--hats off to them for donating their time.
Are their perks involved with their Voluntary service?? what do you think.

Maybe you can answer this, Does Mr. Anderson also provide counsel services to the ethics committee? I don't know but heard this---can you confirm it? ----and is this voluntary or not?

And for your info---Mr. Anderson's client is OOA and he is involved in their legal problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
......<snip>..........
Bob, Dallas Safari Club and Houston Safari club are both great organizations as well. I am glad to see you support them. However, to continue along the lines of this discussion OOA also exhibited and had auctions at Dallas after all this became public. I dont remember about Houston off the top of my head.
So who wants to throw the first stone here?
My point gentlemen is where do you decide to draw the line? We could keep adding to this but it is really pointless. Lets just say we agree on OOA and disagree on how best to resolve these isuues.

Mike,

No stone throwing here by me... I can't speak for Dallas as I'm not a member and I didn't attend their show. I attended our 2006 Houston show and I don't recall seeing OOA. Franky, I wasn't looking around for them though. I did notice that OOA was not on the exhibitor list on Houston's web site.

http://www.houstonsafariclub.org/ExhibitorListConvention.asp

-Bob F.

Dan I have tried to be polite but I guess that didnt work. I am not trying to protect anyone. I believe about OOAS as you do. What I am saying is get off your ass and do something constructive to solve the problem rather than just bitching about it. If you have done that I will apologize fully. I havent seen any evidence of it from your statements.

Mickey, I never claimed to be an insider. (Nor do I want to be one) I did claim to be working from within the organization to the best of my ability to solve what I believe to be a serious problem. I understand Anderson's role is voluntary. I just cant bring myself to believe that OOA is not trying to bring some undue influence by having him as thier attorney also. One really has nothing to do with the other from a truly buisness sense but from the old boy network it is a different story dont you think? You know as well as I do everyone in any buisness will use any connections they can casuall or otherwise to gain an advantage. Since you are the insider as far as SCI goes how about sharing more of your expertise with us? It would certainly be beneficial to everyone to have someone with your experience to help dispell some of the erroneous information that abounds. I know I have appreciated your knowledge in the past. I would bet that most here have no concept of how things actually work at the international. I know I am in a steep learning curve.

Bob, Dallas club did have a hunt listed to be auctioned off that was donated by OoA, but as was the case with SCI Reno, it was withdrawn. I remember seeing it listed on both websites at some point in the fall, but then it disappeared. At the time I posted in another thread that Dallas did have a hunt donation from OoA, that information was accurate. The information that has been posted about SCI actually auctioning off a hunt donated by OoA at THIS YEAR'S Reno convention is inaccurate. They did not to be best of my knowledge and nobody has corrected me on that.

Mike,

I have not gotten involved in SCI other than to attend the convention. I suppose that is hypocritcal of me. However, I give them the minimal amount of money possible - no donations, no extra subscriptions, no bids at auctions, because of the lack of ethics that I have seen. I think both PETA and the Communist Party are on the wrong track too, but I have not gotten involved with them in order to make them better, either.

Dan, I am sorry for being a little testy about this. First I am frustrated with this whole thing. Second, my chapter at least is the greatest bunch of people you will ever meet. They fully support hunters everywhere and there is none of this kind of crap going on. You are invited to come as my guest to the fundraiser. I would like to have you meet these people. The comparison to belonging to Peta and the communist party is taking it to the point of absurdity. An old debate trick but one that really has no meaning here. If you dont want to support SCI on a local level fine. At least find someone else you can. I realize this isnt really directed at you in the end. It is a general condemnation of people in general who complain loudly but do nothing to fix the problems out there. I guess I just reached my limit where I had to vent.

Mike,

I am talking only about SCI international, where things are quite smelly. It's great that you have a strong local chapter and I encourage you to keep growing and promoting it. However, I have no interest in supporting SCI international since SCI international helps direct clients to a safari operator known for poaching and other legal violations. And I really see no difference between withholding my support from other organizations whose activities with which I disagree.


There was another local chapter that I heard of (different state from yours) where the chapter auctioned an OOA donated hunt, and OOA refused to honor it. So the winning bidder stopped payment on his check. Then OOA called to say they could not honor what was sold, but could provide a substitute hunt. The winning bidder was not interested by then, and the local chapter sued him for his bid amount. That is probably not the best way to build goodwill.

I agree not a way to build goodwill but we really dont know who did what to who. It also becomes a matter of contract law, something I know you are familiar with.

At any rate SCI Detroit has always stood behind its donations and has only had to make good on about 3 of them in the last 10 to 15 years as far as I know.

Anyone who is interested our website is
www.scidetroit.com
You can also pm me anytime with questions.

I am done discussing the rest of this for the moment as all it does is raise my blood pressure.

Good hunting to all!

PS Phasa is supposed to have a hearing tomorrow on OOAS but we will see.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
I agree not a way to build goodwill but we really dont know who did what to who. It also becomes a matter of contract law, something I know you are familiar with.

This is the same type of talk used to protect SCI international in its financial dealings with OOA. I think it's better to just call a spade a spade.

Quickshot

To the best of my knowledge there is no budget for the Legal Afairs Task Force for Travel or Meals. Perhaps some for office expenses as in copies etc. Conference Calls are paid by SCI.

There are very few Committees of SCI that recieve any reimbursment for Travel, Lodging or Meals. The ones that do are often meeting outside the three Annual Board Meetings or have required attendance. These would be Ethics, Convention, Nominations, Guide/Outfitters, maybe a couple I have forgotten. Board Meeting expenses are not paid by SCI and in fact a fee of a couple of hundred dollars is charged to attend, plus airline flights, plus Hotel. this is in an effort to keep the cost down to SCI.

The rest of the Committees meet at the BoD Meetings and by Conference Call. The vast majority of SCI volunteers do so at great expense to themselves with little to no renumeration.

Anderson was the Chairman of the Ethics Committee for a short while a few years ago but I am not sure of his current standing. The Committee has a paid legal advisor, Rick Parsons, and SCI Employee, and of course the paid advice of SCI's outside Legal Counsel. As you can imagine many of the decisions need to be be run by Counsel for adherence to the By Laws and the legalities of the Countries involved.

Don't assume that any 'old Boys network' will effect the Ethics Conmmittee. If Anderson is still on the Committee he will have to recuse himself from any discussion or decision making. They will and have made decisions that there has been an Ethical Violation despite the fact that the decision is not in the best interests of SCI. The Executive Committee is charged with looking out for that.

The process is tedious and thorough. It takes time.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:

quote:

Originally posted by Dungbeetle:

quote:

SCI has been presented with a copy of the Zimbabwe declaration concerning OOA, and the Zimbabwe National Parks ruling which bans OOA from Zimbabwe. Yet SCI national kept auctioning the OOA donated hunts.

The auctioned hunts mentioned; Does OoA only operate in Zim or are they trans-Africa? Are some of these auctioned hunts (via S.C.I.) in other African locales than Zim.?

DB

What auctioned hunt are you talking about? None was auctioned at the recent Reno Convention. The Ooa donation hunt was withdrawn. Know what you are blathering about? Nah. Much more fun to spout off without knowing the facts, isn't it.

patrkyhuter,

First let me say that S.C.I has and does continue to do much for hunters and outdoorsmen and women. No question about that. I've joined a local chapter. However, please do note that you (fairly) state what OoA and S.C.I. printed in what was to be available. The written word is what matters and when I read that, I have cause to pause. To question, even.

As Mickey, yourself and others have stated on many earlier posts, "so few pack the load for so many". True.

Know this. I count you among those who pack the load. We can only hope that your type and your perserverance for the greater good will pay off for all of us.

BUT. S.C.I. needs to come clean and be above reproach as much as possible. No doubt that Africa is an ever evolving habitat for hunting and other activities and staying above reproach will be ongoing but why do we pay our dues?

Your comment on my "blather". Kiss my ass.

DB

Pretty easy to find out how a non-profit spends it's money and how it ranks against others. www.charitynavigator.com Here is how SCI ranks.

RATINGS OVERALL RATING50.67)

ORGANIZATIONAL EFFICIENCY
Program Expenses 73.6%
Administration Expenses 19.6%
Fundraising Expenses 6.8%
Fundraising Efficiency $0.06
EFFICIENCY RATING:
(34.28)
ORGANIZATIONAL CAPACITY
Primary Revenue Growth 49.8%
Program Expenses Growth 3.9%
Working Capital Ratio (years) 0.21
CAPACITY RATING:
(16.39)

PEER ANALYSIS
Charity Name Overall Score
SCI 50.67
Wildlife Trust 68.42
International Crane Foundation 69.07
American Bird Conservancy 65.82
HSUS Wildlife Land Trust 16.32

NCOME STATEMENT: FYE 12/2003
Revenue
Primary Revenue $4,946,944
Other Revenue $90,479
Total Revenue: $5,037,423
Expenses
Program Expenses $2,951,581
Administration Expenses $786,150
Fundraising Expenses $271,871
Total Functional Expenses: $4,009,602

Payments to Affiliates $0
Excess (or Deficit) for the Year $1,027,821
Net Assets: $6,364,775

CEO PAY FYE 12/2003
Richard Parsons
Executive Director

Using information reported on an organization's most recent Form 990, we include as compensation an individual's salary, cash bonuses, and unusually large expense accounts and other allowances.
Compensation: $157,287

Hutty:

Are these data for Safari Club International, Safari Club International Foundation, or both combined?

They apparently are a year behind the times. Tom Riley is CEO now.

BillQ

Mickey, Thanks for the post. It is most helpfull to have something like this for everyone here. I hope you will continue to post things along these lines. People are going to believe what they want in many cases. However, I believe a lot of the misconceptions are due in part to the general lack of knowledge on how things actually are supposed to work. Your expertise in this area is greatly appreciated.
Mike

Just and FYI, but Teressa of OoA was at SHOT in Las Vegas this last week pimping her hunts.
She said she was moving her office from Kansas City to Houston. I got a flier, a glossy catalog, and split.

Patrkyhntr,

OOA donated a hunt that was auctioned of Wednesday night, Jan. 18th (Reno SCI convention). It was one of the last few hunts auctioned off. The hunt was praised as being donated from a "Long time donor, Janneman and Teressa Groenewald and OOA." Item # WN027/18976

10 day Buff hunt in Tanzania, Valued at 24K but sold for 15K.
Funny how the offering was so quietly slipped in on a Wednesday evening auction--not listed on any printed lists---why????

So thoses that say --SCI isn't taking donations from OOA anymore---better re-think it.

regards

Please accept my apology, quickshot. It appears, according to a quick check of SCI's website, that you are correct, and I have a large black bird that caws to eat. I sent an email to SCI headquarters this morning to find out what possible reason (legitimate) they could have for accepting this donation and sneaking it in as they did. I will post the response I get, if and when I get it.