I am going to begin working up loads for my fall of 2009 trophy elephant hunt. I'll be shooting a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby. I am leaning towards using Barnes banded solids as I have been impressed with their other bullets on African game. What are your thoughts?

Use ANY solid that you like, I honestly doubt you will see any difference in performance.

Penetrationwise, the Speer tungsten core would out penetrate anything else - at least in our own tests here.

Scott,

I don't think you could go wrong with those solids...
That is what Dale used to flatten his two bull eles...

Mike

SBT, most modern solids will work, (monolithic and steel jacketed ones anyway).

Here is a pic of a old monolithic Barnes banded solid form Norma ammo coming out of an elephant bull's head. (Side brain shot from about 18 yards).

That was convenient...

SBT, you are using my favorite choice as well. I have used other solids, but Barnes Banded Solid is on the top of my list. It is incredibly accurate and reliable in my gun. It is apparently engineered to penetrate without deflection. You could use 350 grain or 400 grain, but I think most people opt for the 400 grain when they know in advance that their target will be an elephant. In the end though, I'm sure you know that shot placement makes all the difference. Have a great hunt.

Scott,

Barnes solid is an excellent choice. Are you planning to reload your own ammo?

dale

My vote would go the GS Custom flat nosed mono solid.

I would suggest you consider the new Hornady FN steel jacketed solid. It looks like a real killer to me. It is also very resonably priced which means you can do a lot of practicing with it.

465H&H

I am a convert to the Barnes FN banded solid. They really hit hard and penetrate very well.

Other makes have worked fine for me, and will doubtless work fine for you too, but I will use the Barnes solids as long as they continue to make them.

Go with the Barnes solids. I used them in my 416 Rigby, RSM with very good results. They are accurate and penetrate well. I stopped a charging Bull elephant in Zim last May with one and the PH was very impressed by the penetration. A finishing shot while the ele was on the ground laying on his side entered the bottom of his chest (heart shot) between the front legs and exited his back. You can read about my experience in my old post.

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=814105368#814105368

GS Custom FN solids.

The best of the best.

Deeper penetration, larger wound channel. Accurate.

I've given a cursory look at both the Barnes banded solids and the GS custom FN solids. They are both made of copper, both have a flat nose and both are banded. What is the difference?

Karl - Great photo!

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
GS Custom FN solids.

The best of the best.

Deeper penetration, larger wound channel. Accurate.

+1 any day

Any solid that is properly placed on target will do.

JW

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
I've given a cursory look at both the Barnes banded solids and the GS custom FN solids. They are both made of copper, both have a flat nose and both are banded. What is the difference?

Karl - Great photo!

the GSC the lands only cut through the drive bands and not the bullet. the barnes the rings is cut into the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I would suggest you consider the new Hornady FN steel jacketed solid. It looks like a real killer to me. It is also very resonably priced which means you can do a lot of practicing with it.

465H&H

Until I see evidence to indicate otherwise, I will use the new Hornadys

I have killed 2 bull elephant using the GS Custom flat nosed bullets in my Rifles, Inc. 416 Remington.
Bull #1: First shot through the heart and exited. Second shot through the rt. femur, recovered after 66" of penetration.
Bull#2:Side brain shot, complete penetration and exit.

quote:

I've given a cursory look at both the Barnes banded solids and the GS custom FN solids. They are both made of copper, both have a flat nose and both are banded. What is the difference?

GSC FN bullets are made from copper.

GSC FN Solids are true bore and groove diameter drive band bullets. The shank of the bullet conforms to the bore diameter of the barrel and the drive bands conform to the groove diameter of the barrel. Accuracy comes easy and loading and regulating least complicated.

The engraving pressure of GSC FN bullets is the lowest of all commercially available bullets. Control of expanding gas behind the GSC FN is controlled more effectively than with any other type of bullet. Barrels last longer and throat erosion is less than with conventional or grooved bullets.

GSC FNs have large meplat, truncated cone noses. There is ample proof that a truncated cone, with a wide meplat, penetrates more effectively and straighter than a truncated spherical or curved ogive.

Barnes Banded Banded Solids are made from brass. The diameter of the bullet conforms to the groove diameter of the barrel and the grooves are cut in the shank to a greater depth than the land standoff of the barrel. Engraving pressure is higher than that of a drive band copper bullet.

The difference between a drive band bullet and a grooved bullet is easy to discern. Wih a drive band bullet, the combined width of the bands is less than half of the shank length. A grooved bullet is where the combined width of the bands is more than half of the shank length.

FWIW, I've been using GS Custom FNMS for a few years now and I love 'em to bits. From my experiences I reckon they penetrate about 20% more than ordinary solids. Prices, delivery and free advice is also great.

Although it must be said, he's a bit slower when it comes to writing articles!


Gerard...... I'm only pulling your leg!

caliber .375 and above, any solid, place the bullet in the brain (frontal or side on)from upto 30 yards........you will have your jumbo !

remember K.I.S.S.

Gerard,

That was very informative, thanks for taking the time to explain the difference. Where can I buy GSC FN solids in the US?

quote:

Although it must be said, he's a bit slower when it comes to writing articles!

Where is the embarrassed icon when you need it?

SBT

This will take you to the right place. Thanks.

Ahh, Yukon Delta, how quickly I forget.

These are .416 cal 380gr GSC FN bullets recovered from my elephant. Left bullet was a frontal brain shot.


These two are Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer .416cal 400gr and you see one is snapped in half at the groove also recovered from the elephant.

Dale,
Yes, I'll reload my own.

Scott,

I have the new Barnes reloader manual. What is your address or fax? I will send you their reloading data. The banded solid for .416 Rigby comes in 350 and 400 grains. For elephant 400 is your choice. According to their chart, there will be no problem getting 2300 to 2500 fps. If you get great groups, your in the money.

Scott,

I forgot to mention be certain you know where your rifle hits 10-50 yards. Your concession consists of thick mopane. I doubt you will shoot your elephant more than 50 yards.

Good luck

Thanks Dale, but I too have the new Barnes manual. I ordered one before the came out at the FNAWS show in SLC.

Gerard,
I just looked in my Barnes reloading manual. They state that the Barnes Banded Solids are made from Copper Zinc-alloy bullets, not brass. How is that different from yours?

I'll preface this by saying I have no elephant hunting experience, but I'd like to see more people try out the Hornady DGS bullets. IIRC, Ivan Carter used them on DG (buff or ele?) and said they performed admirably. I've seen their construction, and they're pretty robust. Maybe give them a shot?

quote:

Originally posted by SBT:
Gerard,
I just looked in my Barnes reloading manual. They state that the Barnes Banded Solids are made from Copper Zinc-alloy bullets, not brass. How is that different from yours?

SBT - since Gerard is off duty I'll try to help out.

"Brass" is a broad catagory of copper based alloys. Most contain about 60 - 63 % copper usually some lead about 3% or so and the remainder being Zinc. Barnes solids are a Brass/Bronze alloy. If you're interested in reference material on the subject of US specification copper based alloys - PM and I'll get you more detail than you stand to read.

Thanks Mac,

I had this prepared but got distracted.

From Wikepedia:
"Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties. In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin. Despite this distinction, some types of brasses are called bronzes."

GSC uses pure copper.

Pure Copper is more ductile than most copper zinc alloys and, when copper is stressed severely, will deform and retain weight rather than shatter or break.

Make no mistake, "stressed severely" often happens with bullets, as the pictures above show. Broken or shattered brass solids are seen often.

We go from the point of view that a DG solid should rather deform somewhat, in a predesigned manner and retain weight, than hold a perfect shape until a certain stress level is reached, where it then fails catastrophically.

Too soft is not good, as is the case with lead and lead alloys, and too hard is also risky.

The downside of GSC FN solids is that, after recovery, they can not be "loaded again".

I would add that Barnes solids are a bit less dense than GS Custom solids, so the Barnes bullets are longer for any given weight. If your barrel is a standard twist rather than a fast twist, the overlength bullet may not be as well stabilized as a regular bullet.

Thanks you guys, I appreciate the education.

quote:

Originally posted by dukxdog:
These are .416 cal 380gr GSC FN bullets recovered from my elephant. Left bullet was a frontal brain shot.


These two are Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer .416cal 400gr and you see one is snapped in half at the groove also recovered from the elephant.

Why is it a failure when a Woodleigh solid extrudes a few grains of lead from the rear or has a slight nose deformation but the GS FN solid can deform as shown above and that is perfect performance? Those GS solids behave more like soft points than solids and have way too much deformation for my taste in a solid. Is GS using a softer alloy in their solids? It seems that they held together better in earlier forms.

465H&H

Dukxdog,

Howcome you chose the 380 grain over the 410 grain?

bullet stability

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by dukxdog:
These are .416 cal 380gr GSC FN bullets recovered from my elephant. Left bullet was a frontal brain shot.


These two are Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer .416cal 400gr and you see one is snapped in half at the groove also recovered from the elephant.

Why is it a failure when a Woodleigh solid extrudes a few grains of lead from the rear or has a slight nose deformation but the GS FN solid can deform as shown above and that is perfect performance? Those GS solids behave more like soft points than solids and have way too much deformation for my taste in a solid. Is GS using a softer alloy in their solids? It seems that they held together better in earlier forms.

465H&H

recovering a GSC Fn or HV bullet is like shooting a bushpig during the day it is a very scares thing