Got the new CZ catalogue and found out that the custom shop offers the .404 Jeffries. Now I haven't been to Africa, but for you guys that have, what is the cut-off point for the size of game you would use the Jeffries for, provided the shooter can do his part of course?

Looks to me like a useful 2nd gun for everything with more insurance than the .375 H&H, but you still need one of CZ's two other custom offerings, the .450 Rigby or the .505 Gibbs.

I was doing just fine before I got the new catalogue, because I thought the .416 Rigby could get it done for most African game. After reading several posts here, I am seeing Africa as a two rifle purchase and since for me Africa would be more akin to a once in a lifetime event, I don't know that I would want to have to purchase 2 different African Calibers. All of them are bigger than what I would need for N. America and I'm sure that I could recall my trip everytime I looked at them, but the overwhelming thought would be that I have guns I don't need and we all know the 2nd hand rifle market.

Would the .416 Rigby be enough gun, or do you really need to consider 2 like the .458 Lott/.505 Gibbs and a second like the .375 H&H/.404 Jeffries?

The answer to your question is yes.

The .416 Rigby is plenty as is the .404. I always bring two DG capable rifles to camp.

What two rifles are up to you.

In the past my rifles have been either a .458 Lott and a .375H&H or a .470 NE and a .375H&H.

In the future my two rifles will be a .470NE and a .404Jeff.


I like the insurance of having two DG capable rifle in case one of them tanks.

Why a .404 Jeff? Because that B-Hole Ray put the seed in my mind about two years ago and now it's grown into a full blown physcosis and I'm just gonna have one.

Ray the way I see it you owe me for the damages and pain and suffering caused by the .404itis you've infected me with.

Why the 404 Jeffery?

First of all you don't really need a reason. If you want it, just go get it!

As for me, I'm just romancing the cartridge. I have a 450/400 3 inch double and the 404 Jeffery is susposedly the magazine version of the 450/400. It has historical use in Africa, and I just wanted one!

Mine are being built.

I have more DG appropriate calibers than anyone has any use for, a .375, a .404 and a .450 Rigby. The only reason I don't have four is that I sold my 9.3x62 and haven't come up with the cash for a .450 #2, yet. Why? Surestrike and Rusty are both right. Having two DG capable rifles is smart logistics and wanting one overrules needing one. My .375 is actually an Arctic gun so when I next go DG hunting, wheneverthehell that is, I'll be carrying the .404 and the .450#2 along with my pith helmet, monocle and case of claret. It's the only proper way, don'tcherknow!

I'm with Rusty, I wanted one, so I built one.

Is any factory ammo available??????????

Bwana1:

CZ is offering ammunition loaded for them by A-Square for the .404, .450 Rigby, and .505 Gibbs.

In addition, http://www.safariarms.com and http://www.superiorammo.com will load the .404 and most others for you.

RCG

I have used the .404 about as much as any USA hunter has...Its as good on deer and elk as it is on plainsgame and elephant...

The .416 and 404 are IMO excellent calibers for any of the dangerous game, encluding elephant...If a shot from a 404 does not kill the animal, then the same shot from a 700 N.E. probably will not kill it either...It is just a very good killer of large animals and it does not stomp the crap out of you in doing so....

Ganyana has an interresting article in the latest African Hunter magazine with some very interresting stats from the Zim Game Dept. on calibers and charges, doesn't lend credence to the .375 BTW but does to the 40 calibers, and this ain't someones opinnion, its case report facts...

That said, I still feel comfortable with my .375 on any animal, or at least in my shooting...proper bullets and placement make up for a stack of stats and therory, but I have not used my 375 for a number of years and have been using a 404 and 416, probably a good idea.

Thanks guys! Looks like the Jeffries or the Rigby will work according to your oppinions. It will probably come down to bullet availability and handload data. I was thinking about one or the other with a 9.3 X 62 for lighter chores, but I thought I remembered the .404 Jeff being favored by Lion hunters along with the bigger species. Just didn't know if it was big enough for everything in DG. Don't know if I would hunt Elephant, wouldn't mind a chance to take a Rhino though, but Cape Buffalo is a definite. I guess it would depend on the cost of hunting them all vs. taking just one of the three.

The ammo is listed in the 2005 CZ catalogue. Prices range from $80 for the .404 solids to $125 for the .505 Gibbs softs. Quantity is 10 rounds. Softs are $5 higher than the solids and the .450 Rigby runs the same price as the .404 @ $80/85.

In comparison, how would you guys rate the American offerings like the .458s and the .416 Rem. Mag. as a tandem option?

quote:

Originally posted by RCG:
Bwana1:

CZ is offering ammunition loaded for them by A-Square for the .404, .450 Rigby, and .505 Gibbs.

In addition, http://www.safariarms.com and http://www.superiorammo.com will load the .404 and most others for you.

RCG

You would have to do a pretty hard sell to convince me that A-Square ammo is worth buying. It was crap under Alphin and is not worth the risk that it is still not crap.

Go to the other alternatives.

KLN,
The .416 Rem is a ballistic twin to the .404 as is the .416 Rigby. They all shoot a 400 gr. bullet of essentially the same bore at approximately the same velocity. Which one you choose is up to you. The Rigby has upper-class panache, the Remington is All-'murican, and the .404 has probably killed more large game than any other caliber and maybe more than all other calibers, at least until the post WWII period.

The .458 Win was introduced to duplicate the sainted .450 NE. It sort of does. A better choice would be to rechamber the Win for a Lott. That will definitely do whatever damage to biters and stompers you need and do it very finally.

Thus you can have a perfectly adequate African battery (assuming that you think a .375 is too light ) with a .416 Rem and a .458 Lott in Winchester M70's that have been properly tuned by a competant smith. You can have a shockin' good African batt'ry with a proper .404 and a decent .450 double rifle that will go along with yer pith helmet and a case of decent claret. All d'pends on whether yer out t'hunt Africa or t'be a proper Edwardian African hunter, don'tcherknow.

We have both types, and a good number of others, here at AR.

I don't believe there is an upper limit to the game you can take w/ the great old .404 or a .416 for that matter. I have only taken one buffalo & a few antelope w/ mine, but I see no reason why you couldn't go after ele or hippo w/ proper solids in any of the .41s. Teamed w/ a good .375h&h, you need own nothing else for African hunting (except for truly long range hunting like Klipspringer, tiny). If you want to shoot factory ammo, get a ,416Rem. or .416Rigby. There just currently isn't any real factory fodder out for the .404, but I didn't let that stop me. Besides, no factory is going to load the exc. NorthFork bullets in .404jeffery.

Well this all sounds great, but you guys have kinda' sold me on the virtue of 2 DG rifles. Previously, I was thinking about maybe a .416, (thanks Old sarge for pointing out the panache factor), and the 9.3 X 62mm. If you haven't guessed by now, I have a liking for CZ Rifles. I am also a pretty old and experienced hand at reloading so several of these things come into play. That .404 thing about killin' more game than any of them has a panache factor for me as well.

Don't take it the wrong way Old Boy, but I would probably hunt sans the pith helmet and the monocle, but your prose is quite eloquent so if we ever met up in the bush you have my standing offer to carry that case of Claret for you! If we both found our way back to the same camp, might be the question though. Take heart, I probably wouldn't want to carry your Claret and my Warsteiner Dunkel at the same time, even though I am sure I could enjoy them interchangeably!

I appreciate a man with panache and you have my thanks along with all of the posters for making this thread, well, pithy!