Solids for Elephant

20 January 2013, 19:30

venda axe

Solids for Elephant

Up till now I have been using Barnes Banded solids for Elephant. I couldn't be happier with thier performance. Unfortunatly they are no longer available. What do you like? Any recomendations would be appreciated. I would like to find another banded solid, although I do shoot Woodleigh Weldcore softs, and am very happy with them. How are Woodleigh's solids?

20 January 2013, 19:35

Biebs

CEB #13?

20 January 2013, 19:37

505ED

Northfork FPS
Woodleigh Hydrostatic solids
I have been wanting to try the CEB badly too..

Ed

20 January 2013, 19:38

MARK H. YOUNG

Axe,

What calibers are you looking for? I might have a box or two of the Barnes solids I could part with.

Mark

20 January 2013, 19:50

fujotupu

Its all a question of personal preference and mind over matter.
I have always used the good old traditional Woodleigh soft and solids in my .500NE and never had a problem.

20 January 2013, 20:23

TANZ-PH

TROPHY BONDED SLEDGEHAMMER BY FEDERAL! A+++++

20 January 2013, 20:24

Carl Frederik Nagell

quote:
Originally posted by venda axe:
How are Woodleigh's solids?

See my experience with Woodleigh solids

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/5461070481

20 January 2013, 20:44

SBT

What happened to the Barnes? I thought they were great.

20 January 2013, 21:05

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by venda axe:
How are Woodleigh's solids?

See my experience with Woodleigh solids

You also received quite a few different opinions as well.

As I said, personal preference and mind over matter, but to trash a product that has successfully been doing its job for years is not cricket.

An example of personal preference: I will not use pure brass bullets through the barrels of my DR.

20 January 2013, 21:11

venda axe

Mark, I'm looking for 458 500gr.

20 January 2013, 21:27

465H&H

Venda,

Most of the currently available solids in 458 and larger calibers will work just fine. I have used 500 grain Sledgehammers and Hornady DGS in 458 and they worked just fine on head or body shots on elephant. I have also used 480 and 500 grain CEB #13, North Fork, Woodleigh Hydros and Woodleigh RN solids for the same purpose. They also worked fine. Can't hardly make a mistake anymore.

465H&H

20 January 2013, 21:57

Todd Williams

Currently 270 pages of information on bullet terminal performance in the big bore section of this forum.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...861098911#2861098911

Cutting Edge Bullets BBW#13.

20 January 2013, 22:36

pagosawingnut

I'll check my stock and see if I have any of the 500 gr Barnes bbs. I'll pm you if I do.

21 January 2013, 00:58

BenKK

Woodleigh solids get a fairly good review in Richard Harland's "Ndlovu" book.

21 January 2013, 01:24

michael458

Cutting Edge BBW#13 Solids----New North Fork Profile FPS--Solids

These are the only two bullets anyone should be looking at--These two companies care about performance, they care about hunters like you--They do not sacrifice Terminal Performance
so they can sell more bullets for cheap ass rifles--The reason you cannot find any new Barnes
Banded!

The design of the Barnes Banded is a superb design. It has all the proper design perimeters to be a very successful solid and was, but the company that owns Barnes abandoned you the serious hunter in favor of piss poor terminal performance so they could sell more bullets for cheap rifles that would not feed them.

Shooters and Hunters should support the companies that put terminal performance in the field at the top of the list.

Michael

21 January 2013, 01:28

michael458

quote:
Originally posted by venda axe:
Mark, I'm looking for 458 500gr.

By the way, I have several boxes of old stock of .458 500s, and several boxes of
450s as well.

Be happy to sort something out with you, I have no use for them anymore, I use nothing
but a BBW#13 or The New North Forks.

Michael

21 January 2013, 01:32

michael458

fujotupu

I am sorry, I got rid of every single round nose POS I had here long ago, would not pollute my barrels with such sorry ass useless unreliable inconsistent trash, or I would have given you every single one I had for free. You get what you pay for I suppose, being free and all, so...................

My apologies, I could not resist! Seriously.

Michael

21 January 2013, 01:38

Kwan

Do'nt hold back now Michael, let us know how you feel

LOL, ok ok I agree with you wholeheartedly

21 January 2013, 01:51

LionHunter

Michael has good reason to feel as he does, i.e., extensive testing, design adaptation and lots of field experience from hunters using the BBW#13 on big, nasty critters. I am a member of that field testing group and absolutely endorse the CEB bullets. Two Ele and a Buff the last two years and another two Ele scheduled for this June. Wouldn't shoot any other bullet now, and I have in the past.

21 January 2013, 01:56

capoward

Gentlemen,

I will actually expand upon Michael’s listing a little – Here is a quick-short listing of the FN solid monometal bullets that both track straight and drive deep (from the Terminal Bullet Performance thread) – without issue across all calibers tested, in alphabetical order:
CEB BBW#13 DGBR
GSC FN
Nork Fork FPS
S&H SHARRC FN
And Michael’s orginal SSK/Lehigh FN
And yes there were other bullets that tested well, some of only a single caliber and some that functioned properly in some calibers and malfunctioned in other calibers. But there no flies on any of the bullets listed by manufacturer as all functioned properly – use the ones that are readily available to you in the caliber of your choice…

21 January 2013, 02:25

michael458

quote:
Originally posted by Kwan:
Do'nt hold back now Michael, let us know how you feel

LOL, ok ok I agree with you wholeheartedly

HEH.......... No worries pal, I never hold back.

M

21 January 2013, 03:43

Antlers

Woodlieghs have a pretty good record from my research. I have shot DGS with good performance...

21 January 2013, 04:19

Cross L

I had great results with the CEB BBW#13s \last fall on both Elle and Buff.

5-6 ft penetration from a 350gr 416

21 January 2013, 07:10

Zephyr

CEB #13
My only Ele a a frontal brain shot on a Tuskless in september, it whistle right threw her and I think it is still going

21 January 2013, 08:07

crbutler

I thought Barnes said that if you order through them directly, you could still get the old flat point style banded solid bullet? At least until the feds shut down production in the calibers used by handgun shooters, like .375.

Am I wrong about this? Hope not, as my .375 loved their bullet and printed within 1" at 100 yards of the TSX.

21 January 2013, 08:26

reddy375

You can still buy some of the flat nosed solids direct from Barnes.

21 January 2013, 10:17

zzz

quote:
Woodlieghs have a pretty good record from my research. I have shot DGS with good performance

Hello...Anybody home???? Sorry about that, There is a lot of good info above that you need to pay attention. See the mention of the Terminal Performance thread.

CEB #13 is KING. I sidebrained a huge Hwanke bull in 2011 and and then put an anchor thru the chest. Exited and never found.

Only way a Woodleigh would do that is if it did a 180 and came back to papa.

.

21 January 2013, 10:22

Antlers

quote:
Originally posted by zzz:
quote:
Woodlieghs have a pretty good record from my research. I have shot DGS with good performance

Hello...Anybody home???? Sorry about that, There is a lot of good info above that you need to pay attention. See the mention of the Terminal Performance thread.

CEB #13 is KING. I sidebrained a huge Hwanke bull in 2011 and and then put an anchor thru the chest. Exited and never found.

Only way a Woodleigh would do that is if it did a 180 and came back to papa.

.

Must not have been KING...since you needed an anchor...

So because a CEB is effective a Woodliegh couldn't be effective?

21 January 2013, 11:18

BenKK

This happens a lot with hunters. Once a new product is marketed, even if it does have great merit, the old, tried, battle-proven products stop working, and the dust and meat and bones of tens of thousands of long-dead big game animals reassemble themselves, realising they had been inappropriately slain by inferior, old-fashioned items, and walk away to resume a happy life until slain by an appropriately advanced, technologically sound new article.

And, yes, I have killed buffalo with the three projectile types: traditional soft and solid, and modern, machined, blunt-nosed solid brass. I think they're all marvelous. And I agree that the modern stuff is superior... but that the old stuff still works very well indeed when placed correctly.

21 January 2013, 17:25

michael458

quote:
Originally posted by Antlers:
quote:
Originally posted by zzz:
quote:
Woodlieghs have a pretty good record from my research. I have shot DGS with good performance

Hello...Anybody home???? Sorry about that, There is a lot of good info above that you need to pay attention. See the mention of the Terminal Performance thread.

CEB #13 is KING. I sidebrained a huge Hwanke bull in 2011 and and then put an anchor thru the chest. Exited and never found.

Only way a Woodleigh would do that is if it did a 180 and came back to papa.

.

Must not have been KING...since you needed an anchor...

So because a CEB is effective a Woodliegh couldn't be effective?

On Dangerous Game--Includes Elephant FYI--One always "Pays Up the Insurance". This means once that first shot is taken, no matter how good it looks, no matter if that elephant drops ass first, followed by head and trunk (A must for brain Shot Elephant always), then you always always always put one or two in the chest whilst the elephant is DOWN--Then followup with a shot from the top of the head down, into the brain again.

One does not start the pats on the back, and the congratulations with one shot in! I have watched idiots on video do this, while their elephant gets up and runs away! True as well, seen this a few times.

Michael

21 January 2013, 17:43

michael458

quote:
Originally posted by BenKK:
This happens a lot with hunters. Once a new product is marketed, even if it does have great merit, the old, tried, battle-proven products stop working, and the dust and meat and bones of tens of thousands of long-dead big game animals reassemble themselves, realising they had been inappropriately slain by inferior, old-fashioned items, and walk away to resume a happy life until slain by an appropriately advanced, technologically sound new article.

And, yes, I have killed buffalo with the three projectile types: traditional soft and solid, and modern, machined, blunt-nosed solid brass. I think they're all marvelous. And I agree that the modern stuff is superior... but that the old stuff still works very well indeed when placed correctly.

Ben

SOrry, what you propose is not actually true, not here and not with the folks I know. There have been many many documented failures of Woodleighs and other Round Nose solids in the past, regardless of what you hear from what I normally call the "Woodleigh Cult", and sometimes the "Round Nose Cult". Just because it has, does not mean it does so consistently. I know personally of many cases of Round Nose solids veering off course in animal tissue, buffalo and elephant. Many of them reported right here.

The guys that are now shooting superior Flat Nose, proper designs, are doing so for "Performance", not fad! Some of these same guys have experienced "Failure" of either Woodleighs, or other Round Nose projectiles.

I have covered this subject extensively since I joined AR in 2008, I covered this subject long before then, starting in 2005 with the coming of several cartridges I designed and I needed proper bullets for said cartridges, which was the beginning of my quest for "The Perfect Solid"...... As has been noted, much of this quest is documented in the 270 or so pages of Terminal Bullet Performance, on Big Bores of this forum, every step of the way. But, just in the last week or so, there was yet another thread on this very same subject, seems many of you missed that, and the Terminal Performance thread, since that seems to be the case, I am going to copy a couple of my comments on the most recent thread on this same subject, instead of my typing the same old same, again, and again, and again...........................

quote:
Assuming the best way to answer this is with Solids, as we remove different aspects of expansion out of the equation, so let's talk solids.

The 8 Factors that effect Solid Penetration...........

1.....Nose Profile

2.....Meplat Size % of Caliber (Optimum 65%-70%)

3.....Radius Edge Of Meplat

4.....Velocity

5.....Twist Rate (If less than 65% Meplat of Caliber)

6.....Construction & Material

7.....Nose Projection

8.....Sectional Density

Most of the time when discussing this issue there will always be several factors at play in any one circumstance. Some factors are more important than others, and some factors may be elevated to even greater importance if other factors are short.

quote:
Gentlemen, the evidence is OverWhelming, to say the least, that no Round Nose FMJ or Solid bullet is stable in aqueous material, whether test medium, nor animal tissue, both being aqueous. It is inherently unstable by the nose design, it cannot be denied, anymore than one can deny that a Spire Point FMJ or Solid is not stable by the same token. Once Terminals begin, the front end, or the nose does the driving and steering immediately.

Only the UNEducated, or BLANK (to Protect the Innocent of this thread LOL) will hang on to the design. Regardless of how much evidence can be had either from the field or from test work. Some refuse to believe the test work, some deny the validity of the test work, mostly because it does not fit their model of test standards, or their own beliefs. But yet year after year the test work proves itself in the field, which is the purpose of the work to begin with.

Now, also some refer to failures of the FN, and it is absolutely true, they have failed, but only the ones that are NOT designed properly. An improper designed flat nose is no better than a round nose, there are certain factors that have to come into play for the flat nose solid to perform in a proper manner, deep and straight line penetration. Many old designs, and even some new ones are not designed correctly. There is no one on the planet that has put more effort into this than some of us right here, and I doubt that many actually understand what they are doing and what needs to be done to get proper performance. Some bullet designers design the bullet to substandard performance levels so it will feed in CHEAP rifles, not a proper way to play this game.

These factors listed above in a previous post must be taken into account. The mention of failures of older designs of Flat Nose Solids, the designers of said bullets did not adhere to those factors, and thus failed and were prone to failure. The Round Nose design is not stable, it does not have a proper Nose Profile, has no flat Meplat, this is the top two on the list for stable, deep, straight line penetration, reliable penetration. Being inherently unstable means that sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and you cannot count on them consistently. As Todd mentions, we see this year after year in reports RIGHT HERE, one just this past week.

I hear about all the great successes with the Woodleigh RN from some certain few on elephant heads. There is some truth to this as opposed to body shots, but only some! We can take a Round NOse solid of any design, put it into stacked layers of solid wood, or boards, and it will penetrate straight! There is no aqueous influence on the nose, and with the wood being more solid it does not allow the bullet to begin to turn. Elephant heads are harder as well, so I would guess this adds just enough stability that you can get a RN to work, sometimes! Size of the elephant head has a lot to do with it too. With a 458 caliber 500 gr Woodleigh RN FMJ it normally goes from 20-25 inches straight before it starts to veer off course. From correlated evidence collected by myself, and based on others experience as well, and this keeps mounting up every year and confirming this correlation. We see that in the field in animal tissue that we get on average from 30% to 35% deeper penetration with solids than in the test medium I use. Now, this would correlate to some 30-38 inches of penetration with a 500 Gr Woodleigh RN. On some of these small headed tuskless or cows, that is way more than enough to be able to hit the brain, most of the time, unless it goes unstable before then, and there in lies the problem, you can't count on it! It is not reliable by design, sometimes it just DON"T do it!

I have reports, from friends I know personally, of frontals on elephant with Woodleigh FMJ turning and going out the side! Going in the side, and leaving the front!

There are NO DOUBTS, a proper designed Flat Nose Solid that adheres to the Factors Listed above, will be more reliable, more successful, will penetrated deeper, will penetrate straighter and will be more consistent than any round nose fmj or solid ever devised. There is NO DENIAL on this, it is proven, it is fact.

Michael

21 January 2013, 18:07

BenKK

Cheers, Michael. You certainly use reason and science. I concede that I haven't used science in my admiration of the conventional "Aussie Pride" bullets - instead cost factor, tradition... and, importantly, I have zero experience on material as tough as ele skulls - buffalo are much softer than ele skulls, I bet. And yet, I do recall digging a solid out of the off-side of a scrub bull (400 grain, .450/.400 3" NE) and it was just poking through the skin TAIL FIRST, having gone through the boiler room. That bullet was in perfect condition, despite its tumble, surprisingly. So, I have seen first-hand quite a serious deviation. Kind regards, Ben

21 January 2013, 18:23

michael458

Cheers as well Ben, Thank you. You have joined the more Educated of our group, and it certainly looks like it has taken well! Congratulations on your "Graduation" of sorts.

There is nothing wrong with the things we love and cherish, Tradition, and even pride such as "Aussie" pride of their own bullets. You may be proud that Woodleigh has many great softs, and even their version of an inverted Fosters Can of beer, the Woodleigh Hydro. While it is about the ugliest bullet I have ever seen, it is terminally effect and does a good job. So there are still many things you can be proud of. The Woodleigh FMJ Solid is not one of them, however, Woodleigh Softs and Hydros outnumber that dinosaur!

Congratulations once again and Thank you,

Michael

21 January 2013, 18:37

Dutch44

I had great success with the CEB #13's 500 grain in the 450 Rigby on buff. Ass to throat and in a straight line with no obturation or deformity.

Unfortunately they had not produced the 480 grain .483's for my 475 No. 2 by the time I left for Zim with CMS. However, the Woodleigh's in that caliber worked perfectly with only a slight deformation at the base of one on the cow frontal brain. I found it in the neck cartilage. I did not find the one on the bull from a frontal brain, unfortunately.

Dutch

21 January 2013, 22:33

fujotupu

quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
fujotupu

I am sorry, I got rid of every single round nose POS I had here long ago, would not pollute my barrels with such sorry ass useless unreliable inconsistent trash, or I would have given you every single one I had for free. You get what you pay for I suppose, being free and all, so...................

My apologies, I could not resist! Seriously.

Michael

Michael:

I have never had a problem with Woodleighs so I don't need to change nor give a rat's ass for any other brand (have not criticized any of them either) and in which case you can kiss my

21 January 2013, 22:57

michael458

quote:
Originally posted by fujotupu:
quote:
Originally posted by michael458:
fujotupu

I am sorry, I got rid of every single round nose POS I had here long ago, would not pollute my barrels with such sorry ass useless unreliable inconsistent trash, or I would have given you every single one I had for free. You get what you pay for I suppose, being free and all, so...................

My apologies, I could not resist! Seriously.

Michael

Michael:

I have never had a problem with Woodleighs so I don't need to change nor give a rat's ass for any other brand (have not criticized any of them either) and in which case you can kiss my

I wish I had some of the sorry ass things to send you, I most certainly would! By all means, use those wonderful Woodleigh FMJ ROUND NOSE bullets! When you loose something, don't come crying---

I have attempted to Educate You! Enjoy those woodleighs pal!

Good Reply!
Michael

Oh, sorry had to add this, curious, Fujimoto, you got one of those cards I could see???

22 January 2013, 00:12

fujotupu

quote:
When you loose something, don't come crying--- CRYBABY

Michael 458:

In 30+ years, between Kynoch and more recently WR, I haven't been let down so I doubt I'll start worrying now

Have a nice day.

22 January 2013, 00:35

michael458

Fujimoto

Well thats great. I promise you, I am not worried!

Now, how about that card???

Michael

22 January 2013, 04:32

Ongwe

Michael458,

I have not read all of the thread on the other forum so forgive me if this was answered there...

Do you have a financial or personal interest in the Cutting Edge Bullets?

Just curious.

22 January 2013, 04:54

michael458

quote:
personal interest in the Cutting Edge Bullets

Yes, I have a tremendous "Personal Interest" in seeing that CEB is successful.

I want to have those f**king bullets for my use in the field, If I don't have them to make the bullets, I won't be as successful in the field as I might otherwise be! So, yep, I have a personal interest, I need those F**King bullets! LOL. Of course I have several "LifeTime" supplies right now, sad thing, what would equal most folks lifetime supply lasts about a month here!

Actual answer, I own no part of CEB, I own no stock, nothing. In fact, both Sam and I gave the design to CEB for their production. Dan (He did not know me this well then) offered to make my bullets for FREE!

While I appreciated the offer, I turned him down for the very reason stated above. I need CEB in business. I need those bullets. If he made bullets for me for free, they would be bankrupt in less than a month! HEH HEH............... Sam Rose and I designed the BBW#13 Solid from the ground up. We gave it to CEB to make the bullets for us!

Now, Ongwe, I know you from adams house cat. Who are you to ask Me That? And, Why would I even answer such a question, or even have to? Are you questioning MY INTEGRITY?

Just Curious is All

Michael