C'mon all. Are we moving to old Nazi Germany or the old East Bloc?

We seem to be building another crop of whine fests here at AR again.

What is pretty much the common thread of all the complaint threads here?

"I was treated badly and if they don't do right, I'm gonna name names and screw up business and this is letting them know I mean business!"

I would have a lot more sympathy for the guys who got taken if they just put all the information down and quit using the thread as a form of shakedown.

Legally, it is not wrong to post factual information. (The fact that no one gives names etc. tells me people are saying things that they know are not exactly the truth...)

How many folks give out the info on who/what happened down the road? I cannot recall any. I think that Saeed and company should move these threads to somewhere where no one can see them until the OP gives names/dates like he requires on the hunt offered forums. Similarly, the "outfitter defense" threads should require names.

I really don't care for soap operas.

I think we all realize that most of these arguments have two sides to them, and if folks are unwilling to man up and name names and give their own name, we should not be assisting them in whatever it is that they are trying to accomplish. Unless they serve some use to hunters at large, I don't see what dirty laundry does for any of us...

I don't have any skin in the game other than being a client hunter. While I have had bad outcomes, its been handled privately, and usually everyone agreed at the end, fairly.

100%

As I've been told, my great-grandfather always said "No matter how thin you make that pancake, it'll always have two sides." Unless we know who needs to answer for that other side, it's all speculation. People have been thrown under the bus (if I'm referring to the same thread that may be in question) without due process. I've seen too many of these "I got screwed on this hunt because....," when called out, there've been extraneous issues putting doubt on the original accuser. Most regulars, posters or not, know those claims.

If you chose to air your dirty laundry, air it all. It's rather simple. Whether it's an outfitter, PH, booking agent, taxidermist, just air ALL of your beef. Otherwise, this crew (mostly much more experienced than myself) can make their own decisions.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

"I was treated badly and if they don't do right, I'm gonna name names and screw up business and this is letting them know I mean business!"

I would have a lot more sympathy for the guys who got taken if they just put all the information down and quit using the thread as a form of shakedown.

In the developed world and in a situation not characterized by cross-border legal constraints, a wronged client would have recourse. In the international hunting world, the only power the client really has is his/her ability to tell the truth publicly and holding back information is simply good strategy while offering the outfitters a last chance to make it right. I don't view this as a shakedown but an unfortunate reality in which the client threatens to exercise the ONLY power he/she has. This is also not a shakedown as it's not really the powerful party threatening the weaker one. Rather, it is often a single customer going up against what is often a rather large business with substantial marketing power and often a multitude of past clients willing to slander the wronged client should he/she speak up. Frankly, the internet can be a great equalizer in this situation and I thank every vocal client in the history of AR for making it clear for me which outfitters I should AVOID. Simultaneously, it works the other way too! How many outfitters will take travelers checks from now on?????

There are three sides to every story. This side, that side and the truth. I do not think we ever see the truth in a setting like this. I have read thru the most recent threads and it all reads like a he said, she said saga and I am still waiting to hear the truth. But in the end this things just really do is put me off on all parties involved, don't want to hunt with them or share a camp with them.

In the developed world and in a situation not characterized by cross-border legal constraints, a wronged client would have recourse. In the international hunting world, the only power the client really has is his/her ability to tell the truth publicly and holding back information is simply good strategy while offering the outfitters a last chance to make it right. I don't view this as a shakedown but an unfortunate reality in which the client threatens to exercise the ONLY power he/she has. This is also not a shakedown as it's not really the powerful party threatening the weaker one. Rather, it is often a single customer going up against what is often a rather large business with substantial marketing power and often a multitude of past clients willing to slander the wronged client should he/she speak up. Frankly, the internet can be a great equalizer in this situation and I thank every vocal client in the history of AR for making it clear for me which outfitters I should AVOID. Simultaneously, it works the other way too! How many outfitters will take travelers checks from now on?????[/QUOTE]

I am all for posting hunt reports, both positive and negative. Post the facts as they appeared to you, describe the hunt, pix of the trophies or animals taken, the accommodations you had, the terrain you hunted. Don't embellish, don't be contradictory and above all do not tell untruths. Know that most of your readers are experienced hunters and can sniff out inaccuracies, whether you love or hate your outfitter. All outfitters do not walk on water, neither are they all deceitful villains. Neither are clients! Above all, do NOT play games.

The beauty of these forums is an open exchange of information on hunting experiences across the globe that help both your fellow hunters and outfitters in getting the right hunts and hunters booked. The other positive is the other party can comment on your post as well. If you post good hunt reports you will make friends and attract detractors, if you post a negative hunt report you will win admirers and pick up detractors... so just post your honest assessment of your hunt and grow thick skin. The bulk of this forum will thank you for it!

There are 3 sides to every story "His" "Hers" and the Truth

I have to agree, if you want to bring your complaint here, then be open abut it. Use your real name. Use their real name. Oh, you don't want to use your name because of reason XYZ? Then don't come here and post! You don't have a "right" to an Internet trial, you have the privilege of using this site to share your experience. Don't hide behind the anonymity of the Internet to bash a company or person.

I agree 100%. If you go on a public forum to complain/blackmail an outfitter you should be required to post names and allow the outfitter to respond. Otherwise don't waste anyones time with your whinefest.

Did anyone hold a .45 in anyone's ear and force them to read a post???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Did anyone hold a .45 in anyone's ear and force them to read a post???

That has always been my position, if you don't like the topic or content, then don't read it.

The following should be a permanent sticky at the top of the hunt report forums.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I am all for posting hunt reports, both positive and negative. Post the facts as they appeared to you, describe the hunt, pix of the trophies or animals taken, the accommodations you had, the terrain you hunted. Don't embellish, don't be contradictory and above all do not tell untruths. Know that most of your readers are experienced hunters and can sniff out inaccuracies, whether you love or hate your outfitter. All outfitters do not walk on water, neither are they all deceitful villains. Neither are clients! Above all, do NOT play games.

The beauty of these forums is an open exchange of information on hunting experiences across the globe that help both your fellow hunters and outfitters in getting the right hunts and hunters booked. The other positive is the other party can comment on your post as well. If you post good hunt reports you will make friends and attract detractors, if you post a negative hunt report you will win admirers and pick up detractors... so just post your honest assessment of your hunt and grow thick skin. The bulk of this forum will thank you for it!

quote:

Originally posted by Upton O. Good:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Did anyone hold a .45 in anyone's ear and force them to read a post???

That has always been my position, if you don't like the topic or content, then don't read it.

Exactly!

Suppressing the post would be a return to Naziism.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I am all for posting hunt reports, both positive and negative. Post the facts as they appeared to you, describe the hunt, pix of the trophies or animals taken, the accommodations you had, the terrain you hunted. Don't embellish, don't be contradictory and above all do not tell untruths. Know that most of your readers are experienced hunters and can sniff out inaccuracies, whether you love or hate your outfitter. All outfitters do not walk on water, neither are they all deceitful villains. Neither are clients! Above all, do NOT play games.

The beauty of these forums is an open exchange of information on hunting experiences across the globe that help both your fellow hunters and outfitters in getting the right hunts and hunters booked. The other positive is the other party can comment on your post as well. If you post good hunt reports you will make friends and attract detractors, if you post a negative hunt report you will win admirers and pick up detractors... so just post your honest assessment of your hunt and grow thick skin. The bulk of this forum will thank you for it!

Damn straight!

Posted this in the wrong topic area earlier.

Just an observation on this topic, nothing more. Maybe the PTB's of AR should give some thought to creating a special topic area just for those wanting to report a hunt gone sour and limiting the participants to the actual parties involved, and insist that said parties stick to the facts, not the he said/she said, truth is in the middle hyperbole. It always seems like that parties not actually involved or with no factual knowledge of what happened are the ones that cause things to get out of hand. Again, just an observation.

personally i'd like to see the regulating bodies of these countries sponsor a website with hunt reports and general info.

make it a requirement to report on how your hunt was conducted and such.

besides the who, what and where have a standard form where questions regarding food,equipment and accommodations could be ticked off. satisfied/dissatisfied etc.

all licensed outfits /guides could be listed. any complaints filed against them.

much could be gleaned by such a website.

this would not be a rating system as there are too many variables to be fair to the outfitters.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Posted this in the wrong topic area earlier.

Just an observation on this topic, nothing more. Maybe the PTB's of AR should give some thought to creating a special topic area just for those wanting to report a hunt gone sour and limiting the participants to the actual parties involved, and insist that said parties stick to the facts, not the he said/she said, truth is in the middle hyperbole. It always seems like that parties not actually involved or with no factual knowledge of what happened are the ones that cause things to get out of hand. Again, just an observation.

the poster should also state whether the outfitter was reported to the authorities and evidence submitted.

the thread should also contain how the matter was resolved and in the case of wrong doing any punishment dealt out. example would be revocation or suspension of licenses.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

"I was treated badly and if they don't do right, I'm gonna name names and screw up business and this is letting them know I mean business!"

I would have a lot more sympathy for the guys who got taken if they just put all the information down and quit using the thread as a form of shakedown.

In the developed world and in a situation not characterized by cross-border legal constraints, a wronged client would have recourse. In the international hunting world, the only power the client really has is his/her ability to tell the truth publicly and holding back information is simply good strategy while offering the outfitters a last chance to make it right. I don't view this as a shakedown but an unfortunate reality in which the client threatens to exercise the ONLY power he/she has. This is also not a shakedown as it's not really the powerful party threatening the weaker one. Rather, it is often a single customer going up against what is often a rather large business with substantial marketing power and often a multitude of past clients willing to slander the wronged client should he/she speak up. Frankly, the internet can be a great equalizer in this situation and I thank every vocal client in the history of AR for making it clear for me which outfitters I should AVOID. Simultaneously, it works the other way too! How many outfitters will take travelers checks from now on?????

I don't have a problem at all with negative reports- but I do with the attempts to use public ridicule and dragging someone's good name in the dirt (from either side) for personal gain, and that alone.

My point with the name business is that there are many make it right reports here that make one think "am I dealing with that one crook?"

An example of a excellent negative hunt "report" is the long running Blair witch project on the American hunts section of this forum. You know who it was, how much was involved, and what risks you take.

Contrast that to the guys who say I cannot tell because I want X and if they give it to me, then I go away and no one is the wiser. Frankly, if it takes the threat of public humiliation to get someone to do right, they didn't do right.

Sorry, but if they don't tell what happened, its a shakedown, and they got away with it.

Developed world? Cross border legal constraints? Fer cryin' out loud, some of the biggest screw jobs have been done in the USA, by US citizens on US citizens. Legal is not moral, and having a court system doesn't necessarily equate to justice either.

A group anonymous informers using the power of the whole to get what they want out of someone. Sounds more like blackmail or the way the Gestapo got people to inform on their neighbors than anything else to me. If you were a wronged client, step on up, tell the truth (with pictures in living color...) and you will be surprised how well you are received.

Unfortunately, the guys who show up on this forum, make an accusation, and disappear really don't benefit the forum, do they?

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

"I was treated badly and if they don't do right, I'm gonna name names and screw up business and this is letting them know I mean business!"

I would have a lot more sympathy for the guys who got taken if they just put all the information down and quit using the thread as a form of shakedown.

In the developed world and in a situation not characterized by cross-border legal constraints, a wronged client would have recourse. In the international hunting world, the only power the client really has is his/her ability to tell the truth publicly and holding back information is simply good strategy while offering the outfitters a last chance to make it right. I don't view this as a shakedown but an unfortunate reality in which the client threatens to exercise the ONLY power he/she has. This is also not a shakedown as it's not really the powerful party threatening the weaker one. Rather, it is often a single customer going up against what is often a rather large business with substantial marketing power and often a multitude of past clients willing to slander the wronged client should he/she speak up. Frankly, the internet can be a great equalizer in this situation and I thank every vocal client in the history of AR for making it clear for me which outfitters I should AVOID. Simultaneously, it works the other way too! How many outfitters will take travelers checks from now on?????

I don't have a problem at all with negative reports- but I do with the attempts to use public ridicule and dragging someone's good name in the dirt (from either side) for personal gain, and that alone.

My point with the name business is that there are many make it right reports here that make one think "am I dealing with that one crook?"

An example of a excellent negative hunt "report" is the long running Blair witch project on the American hunts section of this forum. You know who it was, how much was involved, and what risks you take.

Contrast that to the guys who say I cannot tell because I want X and if they give it to me, then I go away and no one is the wiser. Frankly, if it takes the threat of public humiliation to get someone to do right, they didn't do right.

Sorry, but if they don't tell what happened, its a shakedown, and they got away with it.

Developed world? Cross border legal constraints? Fer cryin' out loud, some of the biggest screw jobs have been done in the USA, by US citizens on US citizens. Legal is not moral, and having a court system doesn't necessarily equate to justice either.

A group anonymous informers using the power of the whole to get what they want out of someone. Sounds more like blackmail or the way the Gestapo got people to inform on their neighbors than anything else to me. If you were a wronged client, step on up, tell the truth (with pictures in living color...) and you will be surprised how well you are received.

Unfortunately, the guys who show up on this forum, make an accusation, and disappear really don't benefit the forum, do they?

Spot On!!

I vote Republican but I am Libertarian at heart. I say just leave things alone...let people say what they want and let the chips fall where they may.

Trying to make things better with more rules is akin to the Obama administration using Sandy Hook to promote more gun laws.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I vote Republican but I am Libertarian at heart. I say just leave things alone...let people say what they want and let the chips fall where they may.

Trying to make things better with more rules is akin to the Obama administration using Sandy Hook to promote more gun laws.

+1

Actually, I would like to see more of them.

And I would like the outfitters and PH involved to say their part too.

Sadly, I get messages from a number of outfitters who have quite a bit of bother with some silly individuals who have no business going hunting except what seems to be on a whim.

Complaints such the client arriving with a large bore rifle. Brand new, and the owner never having even fired it. Their answer is "my gunsmith installed the scope and sighted in for me".

They flinch so bad they cannot even hit the cardborad box the target is pasdted on.

Clients who arrive specifically to hunt a lion, arriving with one box of 20 of ammo for their rifles.

They then proceed and use half that just getting on target before the hunt, then barely manage to shoot a bait animal before they ran out of ammo.

Clients who come specifically to shoot an elephant. Again, arriving with one box of ammo, with no solids for the elephant.

Clients who like to have more than a few drinks at night, staying late, and keeping the PH awake into the next morning. Waking up close to lunch time the next day.

Clients who turn up with a female companion, the rental variety. Their sole purpose is to be far away from their wives, and absolutely no interest in actually hunting.

Clients who shoot more animals than they had originally wanted, then somehow forgetting to pay the price once they are back home.

I honestly think that we have many bad clients for each bad outfitter or PH in the industry.

They just do not like to come out and talk about it unless the client has done something far beyond their tolerance.

I have absolutely nothing against posting negative hunt reports.

Just be honest, and report the facts.

Saeed,

This one of the few times you and I agree on something. But I'm with you on this one 100%.

I've never understood the purpose of coming on AR and bitching about how bad a hunt was, all the while holding back who the parties are to the event. It's bitching for the sake of bitching and when all the coded secret, secret call outs start, I just turn a deaf ear and chalk it up to being nothing short of a soap opera. What purpose does it serve to come here and say, "Guys, I was just treated really bad on a hunt I purchased from someone who posts here on AR" and leave it at that. How does that help anyone one here? It doesn't. It's even worse when veiled threats are made to fully expose the parties if their demands aren't met.

If there is an issue, post a proper hunt report with the names of the outfitter, PH, Agent, dates of the hunt, areas hunted, game sought, game seen, game harvested. You know, the full details. This gives the other party a chance to respond so that all sides of the issue can be heard. That's the way honorable men would conduct themselves!

Is it just me or have you guys noticed that every time a guy comes on AR with a coded, secrete accusation where the offending party isn't fully identified but all wrong doings and mistreatments are simply implied through innuendo, that once the other side of the story is heard, the original complainant has hidden very important material information that reflects very poorly on the OP? Case in point: Allgone and his tale of woe on how he was so wrongfully treated and coming here on AR, he had generated much sympathy for his cause. Then it was discovered, an event Allgone actually confessed to once outed, that in the process of this long tale of sorrow, he had completely concealed the fact that he bribed the game scout into looking the other way when he wounded a cape buffalo so that the animal didn't enter the quota sheet and he could shoot another? Incidents like that is why I place zero credibility in bad hunt reports where all the details are not given and names are witheld pending the opportunity for the accused to come right, less they be exposed.

A good hunt report on AR lets us enjoy the member's hunt vicariously and gives us an idea of whom me might want to contact about a future hunt. Conversely, a bad hunt warns us who to stay away from, or at the very least, especially when it seems out of character for someone who is known here, to inquire further about extenuating circumstances. Both scenarios provide a valuable service to the AR members. The he said / she said innuendo spewing, "come right or I'll tell my mama on you" crap is childish at best, and often reflects more poorly on the OP in the end. There are a couple of those instances on AR right now.