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I have often heard it repeated that the .375 H&H is the minimum legal caliber for dangerous game in Africa. I was wondering how the .375 was selected. Is it based on bullet diameter, energy, both, or some other criteria? The reason I ask is because I was thinking about building a 9,3X64 Brenneke and was wondering if it would be legal for dangerous game. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | ||
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If you run a search on the topic, you will find a great deal of previous discussion ... analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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It actually depends on the country and which animal you are referring to. For example, in Cameroon you have to have at least .354 for Group 1 game but that also includes animals like bongo, eland, roan, etc. not just lion, elephant, etc. In several countries, the minimum for cats is .300 and most places the minimum for buffalo, elephant, etc. is .375 or 9.3 caliber. Each country has its own regulations and many of them are based upon a combination of muzzle energy and/or caliber. Namibia, for example, requires 5,400 joules or 3,983 ft. lbs. of energy for big game (which they define as buffalo, rhino, elephant, hippo and giraffe). If you can be more specific as to which country and which game animal then you can get a precise answer...with the undestanding that the regs could change. _______________________________  | |||
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Yukon, I was thinking buffalo in either Tanzania, Zimbabwe, or South Africa. Thank you for the information. It helps. I was thinking about building a new rifle and am just a bit bored with the .375 and wanted to try something else. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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This info is in regards to buffalo in the following countries... Zim - at least 9.2mm and 5,300 joules (3,910 ft lbs) - this practically means .375 H&H or 9.3x64 Tanz - no minimum energy figure but caliber is .375 RSA - most provinces require .375 but some do not and rely on "common sense", no province requires energy minimums Your PH may require something more but these are the govt. regs. _______________________________ | |||
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.404, .416, .458...  ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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I've asked a number of PHs the question of where, ignoring legal requirements for the sake of conversation, they would draw the line. They seem to draw it between the .300 magnums (won't penetrate both lungs on a buffalo) and the .338 magnum (will get double-lung penetration). ______________________ RMEF Life Member SCI DRSS Chapuis 9,3/9,3 + 20/20 Simson 12/12/9,3 Zoli 7x57R/12 Kreighoff .470/.470 We band of 9,3ers! The Few. The Pissed. The Taxpayers. | |||
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Anyone have any info on leopard, in Namibia in particular? I've been told by those that claim to know that .375 is the minimum. I have no problem using a .375, or my .416, which drives tacks, but that seems a bit overkill on a 180 lb. cat. | |||
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I know of one cape buff double lunged and killed with one shot from a .308 Winchester. It was shot on a professional hunt in Tanzania by a very petit lady friend of mine in the 1980's. Not advocating it just mentioning it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lavaca, I don't know what the exact law is in Namibia, but the plain old 30-06 with w 180 gr bullet is an excellent Leopard cartridge, and is legal for that purpose in Zimbabwe, with the 7mm(.284 cal) Rem Mag being the minimum for cats there. It would suprise me if the 270 Win up isn't legal for Leopard in Namibia, but you'd be better off getting in touch with your booking agent, or PH, if posible, to be sure!  Dave Bush, the 9.3X64 is legal for dangerous game,including cape buffalo, and elephant in Zimbabwe,as is the 9.3X62, and 9.3X74R. The cats are legal with a 7mmRem Mag in Zim. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Your PH could tell you about leopard in Namibia. I can look up the regs later today if you want them? You can also PM me. _______________________________ | |||
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I love how people tell you to search the topic, there alway a few that cant wait to tell you this and give you no info. NEWSFLASH there are about half the topics if not more that come up here evryday that have been discussed before, so if these peole want to ask again let them if they didnt there wouldn't be shit on here everyday. | |||
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I believe that your source is misinformed. You can read the regulations on the Namibian Professional Hunter's Association website: Hunting Laws English Index Page As suggested, this is a great topic to discuss with your PH, safari company, or booking agent in advance. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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There is no such thing as overkill... It is dead or not... shot chui in Tanzania with my light rifle a 375H&H 300gr Hornady Round nose... DRT'd him at 40yds. with not a very big exit hole... Had another friend wound chui in Tanzania on a late season hunt was shooting a 30 cal. but for the life of him, he still can't figure how he wounded and did not kill it... When I hunted ele for the first time I even wondered if the 458 Lott was to small when in tight of the bull eles!!! I also look at it this way, do you want the minumum caliber in your hands when hunting DG! Mike Mike | |||
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Charles, just as a point of order, I am fairly certain that the NAPHA website is wrong about the minimum caliber being 7mm. Lots of folks, including me, have used smaller bores than that on Namibian game. Hard to figure that NAPHA would get that wrong, but there you have it. I also used a .338 Win. Mag. on lion, with full knowledge of and an official permit from the Namibian MET. I had a better source on the Namibian hunting laws, but I can't remember what it was. If I do, I will post it. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I would love to see the better source when you find it. I agree that 7mm seems an odd requirement for plainsgame where you might be hunting Springbok or Damara Dik-Dik! It is weird that the professional hunter's association would have it wrong. I do not think you need a .375 or a .416 for leopard. I think that they are in a different class for caliber selection than the other damgerous game, and a well-placed 30 caliber should be adequate. However, although I have hunted them I have not shot one so I will defer to those who have. The question here was legal minimum not recommended caliber, and I think that someone was ill-informed about Namibia's restrictions. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Thanks for the info. I'd checked the NAPHA website, but what was confusing to me was the etc. after the list of various species since leopard wasn't listed specifically. I spoke with two Namibian PH's when I was there in June. One was quite comfortable with a .300 Win. Mag. The other said the minimum was .375. Given the AUSA's recent interest in the Lacey Act, I think I'd rather err on the safe side. | |||
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The Namibian PH I hunted with thought the .30-06 was about perfect, so go figure! If you shoot a .375 well I can't see how you could go wrong. Good luck! ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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Bored with the 375, eh? I wonder what the guys that have been mauled are using.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I used a .375 on my one and so far only leopard. Killed him dead with one shot through the cat's meow. Still, an '06 would have done as well. Leopard aren't tough unless you make it that way by blowing the first shot.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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As to leopard in Namibia, the regs state that the smallest minimum caliber for big game hunting (plains games is included in that category) is 7mm (.284) and the minimum energy level for leopard, lion and most plains game is 2,700 joules or 1,991 ft lbs. Larger game such as buff, ele, hippo, giraffe and rhino require 5,400 joules or 3,983 ft lbs. _______________________________ | |||
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I shot my first Leopard in Zimbabwe with a 375 with 260gr Nosler Partitions. Perfect heart/lung shot at PRECISELY 50 meters (from a blind and PH had actually MEASURED the distance from the bait to blind) through and through. Let out a terrible howl and whirled around and was gone. Enough RED blood to paint a house with. PH said it was perfect and he wouldn't go far. He sent me back to the truck and he and tracker went for Leopard. Found the cat backed up under a bush watching his backtrail about 50 Ft from the bait. Second one was out of a tree with a 12ga Berreta with nickel plated OO. Dead when he hit the ground. So who knows. If I were to hunt another I would still probably use a 375. If a Leopard isn't tough I would be scared to hunt something that was. Any animal that can go 50ft and position himself to watch his back with literally no lungs and heart definately ain't no pussycat. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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The minimums required are one of the only flaws in the Namibian laws. There is no minimum for leopard specifically. I shot my firts leopard with a .243 Win and 100gr factory ammo (read cup & core bullets.) 7mm is a safe, selfimposed minimum, though 6.5 and even a .243 works well, but with stronger bullets. As on buffalo and the rest, only buffalo are mentioned as requiring 5400 J (about 3950 ft/ lbs) of muzzle energy, so legally you can hunt a elephant with a .22 LR..... Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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The hunting regs I quoted above are directly from the current Safari Guide regs for Namibia and that section was written by Dirk De Bod. 7mm is the minimum caliber for any big game and elephants are definitely not legal with a .22 but fall under the 5,400 joules as I stated. I don't live there but those are the stated regs plain and simple. _______________________________ | |||
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Well, yukon, my info comes from MET's (Ministry of Environment & Tourism) reprint of the law that governs hunting and trophy hunting in particular. A lot of species are just not mentioned when minimums are discussed, elephant being one of them, which leaves it open to wheteher there is actually a law that governs which caliber/ energy has to be used on elephant. The 7mm is also only for eland, gemsbok, kudu and I think hartebeest. (Will try and find my copy and tell you on what page it is.) The same section also mentions that solid bullets may not be used on certain plainsgame, (mentioned by name), only used on thick skinned animals like elephant, buffalo. The mentioned animals exclude animals like klipspringer and dik dik, wheter intentional or by mistake I do not know, so contrary to popular belief, some PG may be shot with solids. Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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It wouldn't surprise me to hear of conflicting info. It sounds like you are finding "loopholes" which may or may not exist. The regs from the current Safari Guide which has contributors like Don Heath, Craig Boddington, Peter Flack, Dirk De Bod, etc. is what I would trust...and they specifically mention elephant. _______________________________ | |||
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Karl is a PH and hunts there... ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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yukon delta, you are relying upon second hand sources, whereas Karl is consulting a digest/reprint of the law itself that the MET (the ministry with direct responsibility for hunting) has published. The ministry's regulations are the last word. As characterized by Karl, they also jibe with my direct experience in Namibia. Karl, I believe that I had an electronic copy of the digest/reprint that you mention at one time. But I can't find it. If you can post it, I would much appreciate it. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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So is Dirk De Bod and his info comes from the MWT (ministry of wildlife and tourism). Safari Press asked him and the others I mentioned to make a current resource. The bottom line is that should trust what your PH tells you but it doesn't hurt to do some research. I know what my current research tells me and have quoted it directly. I just read it again and it clearly states what I said. It's a bit silly to argue the fact that you might be able to shoot an elephant with a .22 anyway. Is Karl saying to come and try it with him? Of course not. We all know of PH's and clients that have done this or that...doesn't mean it confirms to the regs. _______________________________ | |||
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YKD, the laws not only of Namibia, but elsewhere, are frequently poorly written. I believe that the key error in the information you cited, and on the NAPHA website (key because it might wrongly cause US hunters to leave their 6mm, .25 or 6.5mm rifles at home), is the statement that the 7mm is the minimum legal caliber for all plains game. As I suggested earlier in this thread, and as Karl has confirmed, that is not so. As for elephant and other DG, I agree that despite the apparent gaps in the law, common sense had better prevail. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I didn't mean to imply that the 7mm is for all plains game. The reg I quoted says the 7mm is the minimum for "big game". Now that seems to imply to many of us that it is large and even dangerous game but that doesn't seem to be their definition. The regs I have do state the minimums for dik-dik, duiker, etc. to be an energy minimum of 1,350 joules or 996 ft. pounds. The bottom line is I am just trying to help by posting from the source I have which has been trustworthy in my experience. I'm sure there are loopholes and conflicting info even among the various govt. agencies. That would just be normal. I have never been to Namibia and don't have plans at this point so I defer to those who work there. I don't know it all but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once. _______________________________ | |||
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Of course I am not advocating the use of small calibers on elephant, just trying to answer the question of what is LEGAL. The following are from MET's reprint of the regulations, (Nature Conservation Ordinance 1975: No.4 of 1975.) Restrictions in regard to firearms and capturing apparatus 42. (1) No person shall use a revolver, pistol or automatic fire-arm when hunting game or use a fire-arm of which the bullet has an energy at the muzzle of the barrel which is lower tahn the following when hunting the species of game indicated thereunder: (a) 5400 joules: Buffalo (b) 2700 joules: eland, kudu, oryx, wildebeest, hartebeest, all species of exotic game. (c) 1350 joules: springbok, duiker. Provided that the Cabinet may for the purposes of this subsection by regulation diffrenciate between the caliber of different fire-arms in respect of different game. (2) No person shall when hunting the species of game mentioned in subsection 1(b) or (c) use cartridges with bullets commonly known as solids. In other words, elephant is never mentioned, neither are the other heavies like hippo and rhino. (Might be that when the law was drafted, trophy elephant hunting was not allowed in Namibia.) A bit more confusion: Definition of big game- in relation to huntable game, means the following species of game, namely buffalo, eland, oryx and kudu. (Remember that there is a seperate catogory of PH in Namibia, called Big Game PH, that is the only ones allowed to hunt dangerous big game like elephant, hippo, buffalo, rhino, and also lion and croc., not to be confused with this term. See BGH prefix before name on NAPHA website, instead of usual HG (hunting guide), MHG (master hunting guide, PH (normal PH for plains game only.)) Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Thanks Karl. As I noted, the term "big game" is a little confusing as they use it. The data from Dirk from the MWT included elephant with buffalo, giraffe, etc. but I see your info does not. By the way, is MWT and MET the same thing or completely different? I'm headed out the door for some halibut fishing so I'll check back in when I get back mid-week. _______________________________ | |||
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Thanks for posting those excerpts, Karl. That is what I had seen before, but couldn't find or completely remember. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Karl, thanks for you help. Fifty-four hundred joules is about 4000 ft. lbs. My 9,3X62 Mauser with a 286 grain Wooleigh at about 2360 fps. would not make the cut for buffalo. However, a 286 grain Woodleigh at 2550 fps. from a 9,3X64 Brenneke would as long as there is not restriction as to bullet diameter. Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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You will be OK in Tanzania, Zimbabwe and RSA with a 9.3x64, it is legal in all 3 countries except Tanzania and nobody cares in Tanzania, they use every imaginable caliber there, and now the local chiefs have all the say, meaning the game scouts have the say..In other words nothing has changed..In Zim a 9.3x62 is legal with a handload to bring it up to specs, the 9.3x64 is legal with factory stuff..In RSA some places a .375 is required, but again who's checking and almost all the Europeans use it as opposed to the .375. I suppose one could make a case that why risk it and just use a .375 H&H and that may have some merit..Speaking only for myself and base on my experience in AFrica,I wouldn't be concerned about it. Africans are a very practical lot and seem to place more emphisis on good shooting and the minimum caliber thing is much ignored so far. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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