Just read a hunting report, posted by Deerdogs, over in the hunt report section, and it got me to thinking[dangerous].

There are a lot of hunters out there[me included], who hunt for the experience, and don't give a rats derrierre about inches, or "the book". Are there Mgt. hunts in say Zim, where non trophy[sub 36"] cape buff bulls, and possibly cows can be hunted at a reduced rate? I think there are a lot of guys out there that would go for that kind of experience, at a more affordable price. You have all the thrills and memories of the hunt, and maybe all you do is a skull euro mount, and call it a day.

Maybe then you could afford to throw in with a tuskless cow ele, and like deerdogs, do a warthog/bushpig thing and have a neat 10 day hunting trip on working man's wages.

Not really wanting to start anything, just more "thinking out loud"

What's you guys opinion or take on a hunt like that? A fellow might be able to do a couple of those kind of hunts, over a couple of yrs. as opposed to the trophy hunt[your definition].

Deer dogs hunt just got me thinkin.....

Mad Dog

Well, yes and no. But mostly no.

Yes, there are some operators in SA who will do Mgt. hunts. They are actually quite reasonably priced too. They do it because it is a privately owned herd and it is done to manage genetics and take an old sub-trophy animal before he dies (liquidate him, so to speak). I know of one who has a great area and offers 36" bull hunts. They are hard bossed bulls and the hunting is ... well ... "real" not a penned up Buffalo in a small pasture.

In most every other country where you are hunting free range Buffalo, there is no incentive to drop the price. They have a fixed quota and can only take that number. They would not want to accept half the day rate to shoot one of their Buff quotas, when they can accept the full rate.

Where the heard is privately owned, it is possible. In the wild it is extremely unlikely.

As for Cow hunts, ys, some operators will give a Cow hunt on a discount. Cow quotas are quite low and usually are used for bait, so there are few left over. But I have had opportunities for cows at reduced rate.

Thanks Wendell, what you say makes sense. From the guys report, he said it was with Makore, didn't think that would be a "private herd", per say.

Mad Dog

Mike,

Those buffalo move from one area of the Save to another unhindered. Hopefully Mokore will have more of these next year. At $7,000 to include daily fee and trophy fee this is a great bargain with an excellent safari operator.

Mark

At those prices, i bet they will sell all they have.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
Thanks Wendell, what you say makes sense. From the guys report, he said it was with Makore, didn't think that would be a "private herd", per say.

Mad Dog

It sort of is a Private herd. But not so much in the sense of a fenced in heard. The Save is a huge area and the Buffalo are less likely to leave. They manage their game like a private ranch. So that would make sense to ofer it there.

Actually the one that I know of in SA is also not completely fenced.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

In most every other country where you are hunting free range Buffalo, there is no incentive to drop the price. They have a fixed quota and can only take that number. They would not want to accept half the day rate to shoot one of their Buff quotas, when they can accept the full rate.

Agreed, there is little short term incentive to offer management hunts, however the pragmatic operator will recognise that the current fashion for wide horned buffalo, regardless of age, will, long term significantly erode the gene pool. Hence it is in the operators long term interest to ease off the younger 40 inch bulls, and promote the hunting off the sub 35 inch mature bulls.

It would be great for the overall quality of the species and the long term viability of the sport if "The Book" could be ripped up and new criteria for trophy based on a number of factors, including boss, hardness, age, as well as width.

The European CIC medal system for roe deer is pretty complicated but seems to work in so much that the trophies that score highest are both old and big, so I guess there is a precedent.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

At $7,000 to include daily fee and trophy fee this is a great bargain with an excellent safari operator.

Mark

Mark

The clincher for me is the short duration - 7 days. As a guy with limited time away from my job and the demands of a young family (kids are 2 and 4) I can get away with 7 days. Five days would be better, but the 10 day hunt offered by most operators is just too long for me at the moment.

Sadly, the way trophy quality is dropping in many of the free range areas I hunt, a set of horns and a ball bag is all a buff needs to be classed as 'trophy'.

Also, many european hunters are looking for the old and unusual rather than the big spread, so it is relatively simple to sell a 26" 'scrum cap' bull at full trophy value if you have a mixed european and American clientell.

If you want to look into a 'managment buffalo' hunt in the Limpopo Province of South Africa, give Spear Safaris a look. They offer just this type of buffalo hunt, in addition to some trophy bull hunts. They've got plenty of buffalo, and I believe they take about 5 or 6 management type bulls per year at a reduced rate to the hunter.
www.spearsafaris.com

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Sadly, the way trophy quality is dropping in many of the free range areas I hunt, a set of horns and a ball bag is all a buff needs to be classed as 'trophy'.

Also, many european hunters are looking for the old and unusual rather than the big spread, so it is relatively simple to sell a 26" 'scrum cap' bull at full trophy value if you have a mixed european and American clientell.

Ganyana,
What do you contribute the "drop" in trophy quality to? Poaching? High quota's? Other?

I many be crazy OK OK I'm crazy but i would rater have a bull with mishapen or a broken horn with good hard boss before a normal bull. I like things that are diffrent not like eveyone else's.

PS for sale three legged one eyed one eared dog

Mich

Combination of factors. In Zim (which I know best) the problem is that the total offtake was never considered, and when the decline was noticed, nothing was done.

In any parks safari areathere are three offtakes- the operators quota, the parks 'ration' quota, and poaching. All three offtakes have crept up over the years. who knows what the level of poaching actually is, but the most damaging in many areas has been the parks ration hunts. The last time this was accurately documented (2000) in the Makuti/charara area over 600 buff were shot by parks. In the 'good old days' parks shot less than 20 a year.

Also, as the populations in the parks and safari areas declined, the spill over into the communal lands decreased. Nobody ever said that the sport hunting quotas in the communal lands were sustainable. Brian Childs was the last Ecologist that knew anything about sustainability working on the communal land quotas and he freely admitted the quotas were far above sustainable level, but insited that the cash inflow was necessary to get CAMPFIRE progamme settled and established and that overflow from the parks and safari areas would keep the system stable - ie there was a 'state subsidy' to the tribal areas. This 'subsidy' has gone and nobody is cutting the quotas.

Obviously with the economic turmoil in Zim over the last decade, reducing income has been the furthest thing from the minds of all concerned! I cannot blame the operators who have pushed both parks and the tribal councils to cut unauthorised hunts and controll poaching rather than cutting their quotas- but still....

lastly their has definately been a shift in populations due to other factors. Changes in rainfall and predator dynamics have had a profound effect on the buffalo population of the Zambezi Valley - the buff population fell by 50% between 1985 and 1998 in Mna pool national park- without any poaching or hunting to help it along. parks incompetance killed some 35,000 buffalo in Hwange national park in 1995 and that population has never recovered (afecting both communal land, private ranches and Matetsi sfari area. etc.

To err is human. To cock things up properly, you need a government department.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad Dog:
Just read a hunting report, posted by Deerdogs, over in the hunt report section, and it got me to thinking[dangerous].

There are a lot of hunters out there[me included], who hunt for the experience, and don't give a rats derrierre about inches, or "the book". Are there Mgt. hunts in say Zim, where non trophy[sub 36"] cape buff bulls, and possibly cows can be hunted at a reduced rate? I think there are a lot of guys out there that would go for that kind of experience, at a more affordable price. You have all the thrills and memories of the hunt, and maybe all you do is a skull euro mount, and call it a day.

Maybe then you could afford to throw in with a tuskless cow ele, and like deerdogs, do a warthog/bushpig thing and have a neat 10 day hunting trip on working man's wages.

Not really wanting to start anything, just more "thinking out loud"

What's you guys opinion or take on a hunt like that? A fellow might be able to do a couple of those kind of hunts, over a couple of yrs. as opposed to the trophy hunt[your definition].

Deer dogs hunt just got me thinkin.....

Mad Dog

MD,

We think alike, which is probably is not good for someone to think like me. Anyway I booked a hunt with Martin Pieters for tuskless ele and buff cow. I wanted an inexpensive quality hunt. No shipping cost and no taxidermy. I am leaving October 9th, my 470 Krieghoff is chomping at the bit to kill something.