From Mahohboh by Ron Thomson:

"I am a .458 Magnum man. I love the calibre and, over many, many years, I have learned how to use it effectively. Nevertheless, I must tell you the performance of the .470 on elephants is far superior to that of the .458. There is no comparison. The 'knock down' power of the .458 does not come anywhere near the .470. This, I know, is a subjective assessment -- but I do not 'put down' my beloved .458 Magnum lightly."

"I have mentioned 'knock down' power. Others have done so before me. Some people have even tried to 'measure' it according to ballistical data. The true 'knock down' effect of a weapon, however, is ballistically NOT measurable. I have just inferred as much in my comparisons between the .458 and the .470. Yet there is no doubt that different calibers have very different 'knock down' effects on heavy and dangerous big game animals. The 'knock down' effect is, therefore, a very important factor when hunting big and dangerous game."

And all the people said . . . Amen!

Amen and hallelujah Brother Jines

And why I carry a 500. However in my younger days the .458 was the carry gun of my choice and at 25 paces it is a great stopper.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
From Mahohboh by Ron Thomson:

"I am a .458 Magnum man. I love the calibre and, over many, many years, I have learned how to use it effectively. Nevertheless, I must tell you the performance of the .470 on elephants is far superior to that of the .458. There is no comparison. The 'knock down' power of the .458 does not come anywhere near the .470. This, I know, is a subjective assessment -- but I do not 'put down' my beloved .458 Magnum lightly."

"I have mentioned 'knock down' power. Others have done so before me. Some people have even tried to 'measure' it according to ballistical data. The true 'knock down' effect of a weapon, however, is ballistically NOT measurable. I have just inferred as much in my comparisons between the .458 and the .470. Yet there is no doubt that different calibers have very different 'knock down' effects on heavy and dangerous big game animals. The 'knock down' effect is, therefore, a very important factor when hunting big and dangerous game."

And all the people said . . . Amen!

...............................................................

And this is why the 500NE is superior to the 470NE. And why I now carry a 500NE for Elephants and a 458 for other nasty things. But I do admit to having killed more Ele with a 458 (Lott & B&M) than with the 500NE.

Just another example of the wisdom of Ron Thomson. Thanks for posting MJines

Preach it brother!

Sing it to the heavens! Tell it brothers! The 577 rules!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Sing it to the heavens! Tell it brothers! The 577 rules!!!!

I know instances where elephants didn't even flinch after being hit with a 577 T.Rex!

And I know instances where elephants dropped stone dead after being hit with a 375 rifle

I knew it was only a matter of time before a heretic showed up.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Sing it to the heavens! Tell it brothers! The 577 rules!!!!

Sure, Biebs. Tell that to a .600 man!
Cal

All I know is, when I slide those two cigars into my .500NE, I get that same feeling I use to get before going on a first date.

In love with my double rifle.

I just got back from a range session shooting my 600 double. Man does it rock!!!
The ground behind the target got 18000grains of CEB safari solids (20 shots) .
it looked like it had been ploughed up with
a tractor and disc !!

i am a believer!!!!!

AMEN

Nick

Bullshit!

Nothing kills elephant like a good old pocket knife - from Mahohbo by Ron Thompson

The aim is to kill the animal not knocking it down. Miss the brain and they will live, hit the brain and they will fall dead.

I feel that Ron Thompson and Richard Harland are somewhat boring reads.I would also not refer to them on shooting caliber effectiveness.Just my two cents worth.

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
All I know is, when I slide those two cigars into my .500NE, I get that same feeling I use to get before going on a first date.

In love with my double rifle.

Shit, I only have a 9,3x74.

quote:

Originally posted by Anton van der Spek:
The aim is to kill the animal not knocking it down. Miss the brain and they will live, hit the brain and they will fall dead.

Exactly!

Heretic on Knockdown power on an animal that you Brain Shoot? count me in. No such virtue.

quote:

Originally posted by Anton van der Spek:
The aim is to kill the animal not knocking it down. Miss the brain and they will live, hit the brain and they will fall dead.

You need to go back and study the hammer theory. Little hammers are for hammering small things and big hammers for big things. Try it on your thumb.

I double tapped an elephant in the face earlier this year at a few paces with a .500 and it stumbled and fell down. I then shot it between the shoulder blades. There was no brain shot here and the elephant died.

Often my tracker has turned to me and said 'bwana you now need to shoot that with your big gun'

For a knock down phenomenon, the concussion from a heavy bullet must be close to the central nervous system to cause what seems to knock the animal down. It is not necessary to actually hit the brain or spine to cause the knock down.

A bullet is not capable of actually knocking an animal down but must monetarily disrupt the nervous systems control of the bodies ability to control standing. Any bullet that disrupts the CNS will cause the animal to at least momentarily collapse seemingly knocked down! Fairgame is correct however, that a big bullet is more likely to cause this with a close to a CNS hit than a smaller bullet.
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quote:

A bullet is not capable of actually knocking an animal down

Mac, my rabbit hunting experiences with a 375 would beg to differ :-)

The only advantage the really large bores have is they may...probably will but not necessarily... Knock down an elephant with a near miss to the brain.

After seeing several elephant shot and talking to elephant hunting PH's I agree this is the case, especially with a frontal brain shot.

However, I am probably a heretic but a large bore double is not the most accurate rifle around, if for no other reason than you have two in effect in one gun. Good for close range, but not so good once the distance gets out there a ways. They are good at short range encounters, such as a charge, but for most hunting situations knock down is not an issue, but hitting what you are aiming for is. Frankly, the big bore double really is a specialist's item. Elephant and charge stopping is its forte. Some guys want to hunt with them, and I enjoy mine. Nevertheless, I don't really need one to hunt anything.

Knock down really has no effect on heart or lung shots, and that is the vast majority of your hunting shots.

quote:

Originally posted by Anton van der Spek:
The aim is to kill the animal not knocking it down. Miss the brain and they will live, hit the brain and they will fall dead.

But miss the brain of a charging Ele with a big bore has a better chance of stoping it or altering its initial idea.
As it happens my two "go to" big bore are 458M and 470NE

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
The only advantage the really large bores have is they may...probably will but not necessarily... Knock down an elephant with a near miss to the brain.

After seeing several elephant shot and talking to elephant hunting PH's I agree this is the case, especially with a frontal brain shot.

However, I am probably a heretic but a large bore double is not the most accurate rifle around, if for no other reason than you have two in effect in one gun. Good for close range, but not so good once the distance gets out there a ways. They are good at short range encounters, such as a charge, but for most hunting situations knock down is not an issue, but hitting what you are aiming for is. Frankly, the big bore double really is a specialist's item. Elephant and charge stopping is its forte. Some guys want to hunt with them, and I enjoy mine. Nevertheless, I don't really need one to hunt anything.

Knock down really has no effect on heart or lung shots, and that is the vast majority of your hunting shots.

I have no interest in taking a Jumbo at more than sixty meters (preferably with forty meters) and that is an easy offhand shot with an open sighted double. Even if that hundred pounder was at double that I would be quite confident.
A bigger hole in the lungs certainly deflates quicker than that of a smaller hole. A consideration when hunting Ele in proximity of boundaries.

Tony Sanchez Arino, who killed over 1400 buffalo and over 800 elephants was a big fan of the 500 Jeffery as a "stopper".

BH63

I guess you havnt been on a hot date recently

Just joking

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
All I know is, when I slide those two cigars into my .500NE, I get that same feeling I use to get before going on a first date.

In love with my double rifle.

I think a lot of the observations about caliber, bullets, etc are personal and vary from one person to another. Some love one bullet, others hate the same bullet. Same with calibers. Some base their opinions off of an animal or two.

So many variables come into play that I am not sure there can be a universal answer.

Ozhunter,

I agree that shooting elephant at a distance is not good for a first shot, and that a double may well be more than accurate enough at normal hunting distances. I have shot all my elephant with a double, there is a mystique and history there that in my opinion is an essential part of elephant hunting, but that is personal, not an essential item. Both elephant I shot I would have done just as well with a .375.

As to the comment on deflating faster, that you are wrong about. Yes a .458 puts a bigger hole in by about 0.2" in area than a .375 (ballpark about a third more area) but physiologically the air leak is not an issue, what drops them is bleeding into the lungs as with the dependent skin there is no sucking chest wound to cause pneumothorax.

I have done ersatz necropsies (observing the process more often than doing it myself) on probably 40-50 head and I have yet to see a DG animal with pneumothorax but hemothorax is common. More area may promote the likelihood of hitting a major blood vessel, but hitting the center of the lungs is a certainty of hitting a big vessel.

In any case, they don't get knocked down unless hit in a major bone by a very overpowering cartridge (Biebs's rabbit with a .375) or a CNS or near CNS hit.

quote:

The only advantage the really large bores have is they may...probably will but not necessarily... Knock down an elephant with a near miss to the brain.

This is important for me.

Fairgame,

Given what you do, it should be... But most clients don't put the time in, and most clients are hunting buffalo, not elephant.

Knock down is misused by many. It has its place, but as has been shown many times on this site, the average client does not have that much time behind the gun and in many cases folks here are stating they deliberately chosen to take a gun that they know they don't shoot as well as a form of handicap. Not saying it's bad, but rather that it's just the way it is.

A PH has a different problem than the client hunter in that the PH only shoots once things have gone sideways to some extent. A PH's gun is only there for safety.

The client's job one is to put a killing shot in the first shot every time. Doesn't happen that way all the time, but that is the goal.

Having said that, where does knock down enter in the client side of things? Probably pretty far down the list.

Again, I have nothing against big bore doubles, I have one, and have shot a fair amount of game with it... But knock down power is not the reason I hunted with it.

Maybe I am just arguing semantics.

Thomson goes on to say:

"Feeling comfortable and being confident with a weapon are probably the two most important ingredients that spell 'success' for a hunter . . . Getting back to calibres, and having supported the .375 Magnum as an 'adequate' weapon for elephant, it would be wrong of me to omit stating that there are times when the biggest elephant rifle ever made is not big enough to handle certain situations. There are times when you need that big bullet, when you need that big punch, to the sit the elephant back on its behind."

Speaking of being comfortable and confident . . . in my experience I am far more comfortable and confident when I am up close in the jesse with a big bore than I could ever hope to be with something like a .375. I also think being more comfortable and confident makes you a better shooter too in such situations. Again, while it all comes down to personal preference, I think the advice of using the biggest caliber that you can shoot well is hard advice to argue with.

quote:

I think the advice of using the biggest caliber that you can shoot well is hard advice to argue with.

I could not agree more and that goes directly to the fact that in reality MOST cannot shoot well with something larger than a 375. Anything bigger for those folks is a hindrance rather than an asset.

Mark

I don't know why everyone is falling at Ron Thomson's feet and fawning all over his words, Pondoro Taylor has said all this decades ago backing it up with the experience of shooting huge numbers of dangerous and other African game that we can ever dream of today.
He even went so far to at least put a number on it so different cartridges could be compared when used on big boned dangerous game.

Taylor also expounded the same reasoning that MARK H.YOUNG has in his post and others such as Saeed do i.e. it comes down to what cartridge any hunter can competently and effectively use when facing dangerous game. For some it is the biggest available, for others anything that they shoot accurately and throws a bullet that will reach the vitals on the particular animal being hunted.

It's all been said and done years ago and nobody today can improve on that.

On big, thick skinned, dangerous game, I have used big rifles, and bigger rifles, and then again, I have used much bigger riles.

All else being equal, I am here to tell you, bigger is better!

And more to be point, much bigger is much better!

quote:

in my experience I am far more comfortable and confident when I am up close in the jesse with a big bore than I could ever hope to be with something like a .375. I also think being more comfortable and confident makes you a better shooter too in such situations.

This is because you move your focus from your marginal rifle to your goal, which is shooting the elephant. My guess is many (not all [Saeed, no need to reply]) people who hunt an elephant with a 375 still have that nagging feeling at the moment of truth whether it's enough gun, which divides focus and screws up the whole works.

Once confidence in the tool is gained, the real work commences. This is true in everything from photography to auto racing. The tool gets out of the way and skill, experience, and instinct take over.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

Again, while it all comes down to personal preference, I think the advice of using the biggest caliber that you can shoot well is hard advice to argue with.

Truer words where never written here!
..................................................................

CRButler,
I have no scientific proof of this but have seen game hit in Lungs with smaller calibre's that go quite far with claret build up plugging up the small hole in Lungor lungs .

If the larger bores are a myth as some claim, surely the written values on sectional density and muzzle energy cannot be mythical.

Large bore DRs were not intended for "normal" styles of hunting given their effective and accurate range to be approximately 75 - 100m for the lighter of the bunch.

They were designed as a tool for those whose desire is to be up close and personal with their quarry and by quarry, duiker and the likes do not fall into this category.

This is also one of the reasons for having the correct battery when conducting a hunt which would include plains game, provided there is an intention of getting up "close and personal".

PHs tend to favour the DR because of its capabilities & reliability in efficiently putting matters to rest and its only when one has been in such situations can they appreciate the effective "despatching" qualities of a DR.

Bigger is definitely better but some of the bigger cannot be handled by most.

A decent .458 can be had for about $1,500. A starter .470 will run about half the cost of a buffalo hunt.

As has been said, put it where it counts. The PHs obviously have a different view and goal: keep all alive (well, not the wounded or charging animal). Andrew said it well that the shock from a big bore works and then sort things out.

Big Holes through heart and lungs vs. Small holes through heart and Lungs. That is a different story indeed. Not a less complicated one though; we are now forced to talk about expanding bullets. There's a rabbit trail!
"Knockdown Power" on a elephant is a problem I won't ever get to deal with unless the traveling Circus has an escapee nearby...but I subscribe to "Straight line adequate to the task penetration, easy to shoot accurately, magazine capacity when something fails" club.
Love the big bores but doesn't change what I think. Love the fact that there are folks who can and do Take the "Panatela" Cartridges Two by Two out and do the job with them, keeping hope alive for the rest of the hunting masses.