I read this verse in another recent thread:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I would say that the PH recommends different rifles because a) 20-80% of the men who come hunting are corporate clients who cannot shoot and the PH wants the best chance of securing the animals so he recommends a bigger cal.

I suppose I'm dumber than a sack of doorknobs, so tell me all about these 'corporate clients.' I have never heard the term mentioned here before. Although his claim of 20-80% is a wide spread, it struck me that a majority of all hunters (51% to 80%) fall into this category.

Do they inhabit Accurate Reloading forums?

Your company sends you on an African hunt as a bonus/reward.

I don't think there are any here. We hunt because that is what we do.

Rich
DRSS

In the Southern African context this is typically a guy on a "sponsored" hunt because either his company has booked a hunt for staff for some R&R, or another company has taken him along on a hunt because he is important to them ito being a client, buyer etc.

Typically these guys have never hunted before, or have limited hunting knowledge.

We at CHASA have identified this group as being a real source of new entrants to the sport, and their first experience is critical to how they perceive it, and what "type" of hunter they turn out to be.....

20% TO 80% are corporate clients.

Damn, I missed all these great benefactors prior to my retirement. Although I would probably have jeopardized my employment I WOULD HAVE SOUGHT OUT THESE GENEROUS PEOPLE & MAYBE HAVE SEVERAL THOUSAND POSTS ON AR BY NOW.

My guess would be that most of these hunts have their origins from or through SCI & the hunters (for the most part) are not participants of AR.

80% - Hmm, maybe I'll return to work.

Many are as Rich and Stephen habve mentioned...the real 'problem' ones though are those with new money, no hunting tradition who suddenly age 60 (whatever) have 'made it' and decide to go on a safari to africa to 'prove' their youthful vigour is still there...they are the ones that have no interest in actually hunting. the trophies on the wall a few photo's to show around and how much aof a good time can you have when far, far from home.

Typically they want girls aranged to come up from Jo'berg for the evenings entertainment, they don't want heat, dust, tsetse flies or any form of physical discomfort. They expect to be alowed to shoot from the truck even if they are quite fit...

In short, they are men who have money but no ideal of hunting and for whome the results are the only consideration.

Many can be bought round to be ethical hunters and a few are good friends now...sadly there are too many others...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Your company sends you on an African hunt as a bonus/reward.

I don't think there are any here. We hunt because that is what we do.

Rich
DRSS

Not really. A corporate client is normally someone who is being entertained by a company or individual in order to influence a decision on a deal or a product. In other words, if you are a buyer of plastic packaging material for Proctor and Gamble and the seller of that material is a Chinese plastic merchant - that merchant may take you on a trip to Africa to try and influence your decision to buy from him. It is all done under the guise of "he is our friend and we are showing our appreciation for his kindness to our company over the past few years." In reality it is a type of bribe.

I do not know of any companies that reward an employee with a trip to Africa. Most rewards for good work are cash bonuses. The other items are a bit of problem with the IRS (US taxing authority) as the item given is taxable income.

Anyway, all of this is somewhat common practice in the US being done under the guise of customer relations.

+1 and I would add that these type of perks are more likely to take place on a South African game ranch than out in the "sticks". I do a little of this with some of my clients but on a much, much smaller scale. Typically dove hunting where shells, beverages and food are supplied. Just bring your gun. I try to place people at least 200 yards apart. #8 shot will not travel that far with much effect.
To take someone on a $20K jaunt, they better be a "significant" client.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Your company sends you on an African hunt as a bonus/reward.

I don't think there are any here. We hunt because that is what we do.

Rich
DRSS

Not really. A corporate client is normally someone who is being entertained by a company or individual in order to influence a decision on a deal or a product. In other words, if you are a buyer of plastic packaging material for Proctor and Gamble and the seller of that material is a Chinese plastic merchant - that merchant may take you on a trip to Africa to try and influence your decision to buy from him. It is all done under the guise of "he is our friend and we are showing our appreciation for his kindness to our company over the past few years." In reality it is a type of bribe.

I do not know of any companies that reward an employee with a trip to Africa. Most rewards for good work are cash bonuses. The other items are a bit of problem with the IRS (US taxing authority) as the item given is taxable income.

Anyway, all of this is somewhat common practice in the US being done under the guise of customer relations.

I have to disagree a bit here because there are in fact companies who take their employees on hunting trips and fishing trips as rewards/bonuses for performance. Some also do it for a business retreat.

It is in fact quite common and although I cannot speak for African operators, although that has already been mentioned by Stephen Palos, it is being seen more and more here in Canada. There are a few outfitters who have targeted this market and it has been quite lucrative for them.

It could well be one of the few big markets left out there now that the numbers of individual hunters as clients has plummeted.

Recently I have seen corporate enquiries of this type coming from Japan, South Korea and Spain. It has been quite common for years with big US companies and I personally know of some insurance companies who send their 'big wigs' and 'star employees' on several fishing and hunting trips each year.

In the SA context in my limited experience - a complete cock-up. Large groups of inexperienced hunters who cant shoot and come more for the drinking and driving on bakkies vristling with rifles than the actual experience of hunting.
game ranchers can turn good money over short periods, so its appealing in that respect.

Skyline, I have friends in the foresty industry and academics in that field in AB who get taken on goose shoots as corporate trips or retreats.

You wil see this less in the future from the USA due to new IRS guidelines proposed. In the medical field, the "pharma guidelines" prohibit us from doing anything basically that is not educational,, I guess Shakari can put on Continuing Educational classes and that might swing it but the IRS is keyed into these trips now and those claining write offs as business expense.As an employer, I will have to show the trip as part of your income to be legal in the future if things stay the same. Big government sure is messing up our play house....We used to be able to go on fishing and hunting trips sponsored by a major company, of course as an inducement to use their product, now they just directly market to the consumer on TV.

But you are correct in the fact,, many individuals on these types of trips didn't know which end of a fishing rod to hold,, or how to load a gun. It was jsut party time! and very scary if you're the Ph with one of these guys behind you with a gun!

MJines,

you are the company, and you do this for yourself!!



Ya gotta be good to yourself.

Rich

If the companies were giving trips of any kind and they didn't have at least a fair amount of meetings to inform about the product it was their responsibility to issus a 1099 to the receipent. That is a salesman gets a "production" trip for sales volume that is taxable income and that is still cheaper than paying the tab.

We have continueing eduction meetings outside the US but you must prove it was the only place you could get the information and training or it is not tax deductable. Or as some people do play audit roulette.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Not really. A corporate client is normally someone who is being entertained by a company or individual in order to influence a decision on a deal or a product. In other words, if you are a buyer of plastic packaging material for Proctor and Gamble and the seller of that material is a Chinese plastic merchant - that merchant may take you on a trip to Africa to try and influence your decision to buy from him. It is all done under the guise of "he is our friend and we are showing our appreciation for his kindness to our company over the past few years." In reality it is a type of bribe.

Anyway, all of this is somewhat common practice in the US being done under the guise of customer relations.

The above is quite true, and in my opinion is not the best thing that can happen to good hunting country.

I was born and raised in the Texas hill country, and when I was a kid this area had some of the best hunting in the southwestern USA. The oil, and natural gas companies started buying up the hunting rights to ranches to entertain backers and politicians for drilling rights. Once the oil fields were all satisfied they backed off, but the ranchers were already addicted to that easy money that came without having to brand, and vaccinate wild animals like they do cattle.

SO! Up went the high fences and the old Texas history of asking a landowner for permission to hunt his land for a deer, or sit round his stock tank (FARM POND to you Eastern folks) for dove wing shooting, was over! Before this you could loose a pack of coonhounds and follow them across eight or ten different landowners property without a problem , or follow a creek for miles across many private lands hunting squirrels, but not today, you’ll either end in court, or get shot, for trespassing!

Hunting in Texas has become big business, so big that most Texans have to go out of state to afford to hunt at all! It has come to the point that a 7 day plains game hunt in Africa can be cheaper than a Texas whitetail hunt for ONE ANIMAL.

Corporate hunting perks is not a good thing for hunting as a whole, and though some of the folks who become hunters as a result of them, most are still car shooters, and people who think hunting is being pampered hand and foot because that is what they have found hunting to be!

Texas hunting was ruined by corporate hunting, IMO!

It happens that this is one of the few occasions that I can speak on AR with some knowledge.

I hunted with an outfitter who was totally accustomed to European hunters.(In fact, I was one of his very first Americans) The PH (with whom I had become friends over the month -he was English and I was Irish and we swapped anti-Irish and anti-English insult jokes) told me horror stories about some European hunters. The morals of some Europeans were totally different from Americans. He told me about a client shooting at a buff (who already was eying him) -who was barely nicked -and who whirled and charged. The client fled. (the range was about a hundred yards) At a corporate dinner held in Harare some days later the client was praised for a buff he had killed in a charge! The PH sat there silently, because,as he explained, he needed his job. He told me the nationality of the "client" -but I won't mention it because while I am proud of my own country's corporations and don't think they would have such people, I think some European companies have some people who grow up under a different kind of hunting morals -maybe that they think of game animals as "targets" and nothing more.

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
'Wasn't a darn thing unethical about it. I don't think we ruined hunting in Texas.

'Sorry for the rant, 'just felt that "evil corporations" vibe starting to rear its ugly, liberal head.

Cazador you missed my whole point! It had nothing to do with the ethics of those hunting, or of the folks cooking the meals. What it is that ruined the hunting in Texas was nothing to do with those things. It is evident, I think that you are not old enough to remember how hunting was before the oil companies statrted this.

Before that land owners could be asked, and most would give permission to hunt their ranches as long as you acted properly and didn't shoot close to the ranch house, and didn't leave gates open, or leave trash on the property, you were welcome to hunt! Those folks considered deer dove and quali, wild turkeys to belong to everyone, and there was never a price considered to hunt wild game on thier land. Most hunters shared any meat, fish or birds with the owner, and were always asked back.

Once the corperations started leasing the land with exorbitant tax write off prices for exclusive hunting concessions, the land owners no longer cared for anything other than money, and their neabors were no longer welcome. This is what started the hunting lease system that we enjoy today. The price was what the market would bare, and mosy Texans were simply priced out os the game. I was born on my grandfather's north end hill country cattle ranch, and hunted just about any place I wanted. My grand father never refused anyone who wanted to hunt our place, but were told the rules. If however those rules were violated, the person was not asked back, but no PRICE was ever asked for.

I've lived in several states in the southwest, and I can pay the out of state license fees, and travel to Alaska, Canada, and several states in the southwest, mountain states and still not spend near as much as it costs to hunt in my own home state. Just in the state of New Mexico, there is 36,000,000 acres of public land with pleanty of game to hunt. where I can spend a month hunting big game cheaper than I can hunt doves for the whole dove season in Texas.

Texans has simply been priced out of hunting in Texas, and it all was caused by the corperate leasing done long ago by the oil & natural gas companies.

I don't blame the hunters who came here to hunt free in those corperate leases, but never the less corperations are dirrectly responcible for the high cost of hunting in Texas today that has priced resident hunters out of the market. Hell when I hunted deer on our place you could have bought a nice farm for the trophy fee for a damn whitetail deer today $9000.oo USD for a damn goaty old deer you have to be kidding me! I don't care how big a deer is he will never be worth $9K plus a daily fee!

Damn! but didn't someone once mention something about SCI Inner Circle being associated with this term?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
I read this verse in another recent thread:

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
I would say that the PH recommends different rifles because a) 20-80% of the men who come hunting are corporate clients who cannot shoot and the PH wants the best chance of securing the animals so he recommends a bigger cal.

I suppose I'm dumber than a sack of doorknobs, so tell me all about these 'corporate clients.' I have never heard the term mentioned here before. Although his claim of 20-80% is a wide spread, it struck me that a majority of all hunters (51% to 80%) fall into this category.

Do they inhabit Accurate Reloading forums?

I've found them to be a pain in the ass!

Boy, I sure wish someone would pay me to hunt! Because they won't, I have to spend the money that might otherwise be used to finance my kids' college education. (I figure they can earn or borrow the money for school, but I have to earn hunting money myself. Bummer, that.)

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
It happens that this is one of the few occasions that I can speak on AR with some knowledge.

I hunted with an outfitter who was totally accustomed to European hunters.(In fact, I was one of his very first Americans) The PH (with whom I had become friends over the month -he was English and I was Irish and we swapped anti-Irish and anti-English insult jokes) told me horror stories about some European hunters. The morals of some Europeans were totally different from Americans.

You say you are American and then say you are Irish. Which?..... Sweeping generalisations about behaviour of different nationalities...makes your post sound like a bit of a troll.
The main problem I have with corporate clients is that because their trip is free - some (not all!!) guests treat the whole hunt as a piss up and an excuse to behave badly. Folk who pay for their hunting generally treat the whole exercise with respect and make sure they are 'doing the right thing' by their host / PH / guide and also the quarry.
I've seen bad behaviour in just about every Nationality i have had on shoots / trips I have organised over the years so I tend to avoid any xenophobic reaction.

kibokolambogo, sorry on that try. SCI IC like them or not they are serious hunters, not one trip take everything in sight types.

Me.

I was invited to hunt in Texas last December by a large coporation and all I had to buy was my deer license. Got a 130+ inch 9 pointer.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
kibokolambogo, sorry on that try. SCI IC like them or not .

DOJ:

"they are serious hunters, not one trip take everything in sight types"

God forbid! - Has to qualify for Diamond or nothing and most often at whatever it takes!

I used to be a corporate pilot flying for an oil company out of Dallas. I'd take various executives from our and other companies out on corporate sponsored hunts multiple times a year and was often invited to join in the hunt when we got to the location.

I did so several times but quickly found out that these are not the kind of folks that I care to hunt with and the style of hunting wasn't for me either.

A lot of these guys show up with brand new non sighted in rifles or shotguns still in the box. They party hard and they are unsafe to be around the gun handling is atrocious and the marksmanship is pathetic.

I'd simply rather not participate with these corporate clowns when it comes to guns, booze and wounded game.

I had no idea this corporate client type of hunting in Africa was as prevalent as it is.

Thanks for the education.

Not for all, but for some reason the corporate client is what I would like to be.

surestrick, it isn't just "corporate clients" that show up in a hunting camp with a new rifle or shotgun. I was in a camp in NM hunting speed goats and had the same type hunters in camp. They were a good three some. One attorney, bone cracker, and contractor. The attorney fed to cracker and he built a new home fairly often and it was built by the contractor. We ask if the rifles were "on" and they said they had just picked them up at the sporting good store and were told they were bore sighted and good to go! We said maybe good idea to check in case "travel damage". Long story short they started at 100 yrds give or take and couldn't hit a 4X5 cardboard box. Long story short they pissed around for about am hr before accepting help.