I've seen several posts where PH's have either said it outright or eluded to the fact that unless you are hunting elephant or Grysbok, there isn't any need to bother with solids; which is obviously contrary to what we've all read or practiced (for the most part). I'm not picking a side or starting a fight, I'm just wondering if there is a subtle shift taking place in the hunting fields.

Question:
Are modern premium bullets (expanding) so good that we don't need solids with the exception of brain shots on Elephants?

Choices:
Yes! I don't bother with solids anymore.
No way, never!
I have no idea, I've never seen a buffalo much less shot one, but consider myself an armchair PH.

 

my PH would not have let me out of camp to shoot a Cape Buffalo without half a dozen Barnes Solids for my 450 Dakota. He told me if clients do not bring solids he has a loaner rifle, or lets them take the first shot with soft points, then he may have to do the killing!

Whoever told you they are on the way out probably thinks the 375H&H is too!

Rich
Buff Killer

The PH I hunt most with in Tanzania uses a 450 Dakota (as do I). I reload for him. He uses 500 gr X bullets at 2400fps. He hunts DG all season long and has done so for about 45 years. He refuses to use solids. Usually gets great penetration, even with raking shots. I tried to interest him in GS solids to no avail.

No one told me that. Read my post again.

If I'm hunting buffalo with a double rifle, I always have a soft point in the right barrel, and a North Fork CPS solid in the left barrel, and all shots after the first are solids.

In my bolt rifle I carry a soft in the chamber, and the magazine full of NF CPS solids on Buffalo, and I don't care what the PH wants, he can load his rifle how he pleases!

On buff I don't think that there is a need for solids ever.
I've found several times that a 500 gr X in .458 or .475 will out penetrate an old style round nose solid.

Elephant of course are a different story.

I always bring some solids however. If that is what the PH wants that's fine with me. Why fight the system they both work real well.
The only buffalo I've ever lost wounded was due in part to using a round nosed solid on the first and only shot I got on him. For body shots on buff a premium expander is the only way to go.

There are probably as many opinions as PHs. On my first safari in RSA(2003) the PH told me to load only softs because he shot only solids. In Tanz (07) the PH had me load 2 softs (350gr WoodleighPP) on top of solids (I was shooting a 375H&H bolt rifle in both cases). Ours is not to wonder why but do what the PH tells us. Probably with TSX the solids are becoming less necessary but I'll do whatever the PH tells me (within reason).

My .416 is my all around rifle. I've taken everything from buffalo to impala in Africa, to nilgai, deer and even a turkey stateside. Solids definitely have their place, especially on the small stuff.

Lavaca has it right, solids for 375, 416 on up are great for the small stuff.

I also always have a few solids with me as you never know when that 100 pound ele will walk by.

BigB

With a TSX for the first shot, and solids below, I broke a buffalo's shoulder with a Texas heart shot and a solid. I don't think any expanding bullet would have penetrated that far. When I go back I'll take some more solids.

Its the other way around with a big bore on buff and even on other game. With solids, the softs are optional. The North Fork cup point, which expands little and penetrates much is a great choice for a soft. All of the others are optional.

But when you move down to the medium bores, especially the 375, the softs become more important. Again the NF cup points would be a good choice for buff, but for the other game, more expansion from softs is important.

The really small stuff, klipspringer, etc, solids are the way to go no matter what your shooting.

JPK

In a lot of Big game areas there is a chance of getting "run over" by Elephant and most PHs I have hunted for Buff with insist on Solids with softs only if we are on to a herd .

I don't have sufficient experience (read that any) on dangerous game, but with doubles there don't seem to be many super bullets that are safe for routine use.
My thoughts of soft/solid still is the only option.
Some of our more experienced double shooters opinions might be valuable on this.
Bfly

We have extremely good expanding bullets these days, better than ever before in our history. But in no way does that make the solid obsolete! The solid is essential for elephant, end of story! I consider it essential for hippo, and essential for all second, third + shots on buffalo. There should be little argument with this from anyone that has been to the field!

My training was not in the hunting fields, but elsewhere. We were taught to never stop shooting until the problem is solved. I teach to never stop shooting until the problem is solved, and I carry this over to the hunting fields as well. Does not matter whether it is an impala or a lion! I have been asked several times, by PH and guides elsewhere-"Why did you shoot it so many times?" Shoot until the problem is 100% solved, and then one more for insurance.

A few years ago I was on a test mission, bullet, cartridge, and rifle, first .500 caliber rifles in the field---not .510. I of course had been working on good solids. Nothing but plains game, kudu, wildebeast, and such. I needed to work with my solids too, so I hunted everything just like I was hunting buffalo! First shots with expanding, follow up shots with the solids. At this time I had not tested the expanding bullets available on flesh and bone, so I knew any failures could be backed up with solids. What I learned on this mission was that if the problem was not solved on the first shot, as always a follow up second shot would not always be the perfect broadside shot, just like with buffalo, sometimes directly from the rear! This worked just as good with these sort of animals as it does with buffalo.

Depending on what we were after I have pretty much adopted this into all my hunting situations. Of course not for impala and small game such as that. On a recent hunt in Alaska for griz I employed the same concept. I was using my 50 B&M and a 470 gr expanding bullet, backed up with 485 gr flat nose solids. Great broadside shot with the 470 followed up immediately with the solid, bear went 10 steps! On this particular event the solid really was not needed, but it was there just in case I needed that up the rear shot. I like solid bullets, I like deep and thru penetration. I am finding more use for solids now than ever before. And as with the premium expanding bullets-we have better solids now than ever before in our history of shooting! I see no reason to limit their use for elephant and buff only! One must consider each animal or circumstance you might find yourself, and even with moose or elk, you might find a good solid very useful!

Michael

I have never gone to Africa without some solids no matter what I was hunting and I probably never will.

465H&H

Given the availability these days of excellent, modern, expanding bullets such as the Barnes TSX, solids are only needed for elephant and for body shots on hippo.

Nowadays, if one uses the right caliber rifle and the best expanding bullets, there is no longer any need to use solids on cape buffalo.

Are we talking about "traditional solids" or also including the newer monometals as part of this?

If the monometals (like the barnes solid) are not considered a "traditional" solid, then I would think other than older double rifles, the Traditional solid is moribund, if not dead.

The "traditional" solid, defined as a steel jacketed solid, is alive and well.

Hornaday just recently reintroduced their steel jacketed solids after an idescibably unsuccessful foray into jacket solids minus the steel jacket. The noew steel jacketed Hornadays are earning the fine reputation their steel jacketed predesesors earned.

Woodleigh continues to make the steel jacketed solid by which ALL solids are judged.

The performance of steel jacketed solids remaines excellent, and, imo, more reliable, maybe better said more predictable, than the mono's. Monos have their place, and I'm a fan and a user, but the standard of solid performance remains the reliable performance of the steel jacketed solids.

As for softs for doubles, Woodleigh's have always been excellent.

JPK

There is no need for solids on buffalo. Many PH's are stuck in the past, using solids because they have always used solids.

I have seen others screw up using solids as they shoot a buff and zing goes the solid to wound other buffalo. And buff just aren't that tough if you use a good soft.

As I have related zillions of times before, using solids and proclaiming buff are tough is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. The solids don't do as much damage as softs. You shoot a buff with a solid and the bullet passes through. The buff runs off instead of just falling over as he would with a well-placed soft, and eureka!! those buff are tough. Tough only if shot with solids.

I've used solids on buff but they are unnecessary even for brain shots. They are probably even much worse for brain shots. You can try to shoot a buff in the brain and if you miss by a bit it really doesn't have much effect on them, unlike elephant. A soft would probably be much better at scattering bits and pieces into the brain cavity than any solid.

Will,

Buff die remarkably quickly when hit well with a big bore solid. And for second shots can be required. Plus, if your using solids, and only using solids you are always ready for eles! (No ammo FU's either!)

JPK

Will

Beg to differ on no solids for buff! In particular second shots where most likely the shot will be from the rear. It is a long way from the rear of a buff to the vitals, very few premium expanding bullets will do that. And I don't think any of them will do it 100% of the time, even as good as they are! I also do not concur that a good solid will not hit a buff hard, I have seen them hit with good FN solids and take the hit as hard as any expanding bullet!

As for seeing others screw up and hit second buffs, well those people should have been more aware of what they were doing, I know in the heat of battle things happen, but I also know I have waited many times for an animal to clear, nothing in front, nothing behind!

Solids are here to stay and are just as important to the hunter and shooter as the premium expanding bullets, and in many cases far more important!

Michael

Oh and I do realize that the word "traditional" is part of this thread, and although I VERY MUCH prefer a more modern FN True Solid over the "Traditional RN FMJ Solid", I still think there is a great need for all solids. Those who adhere to the traditional FMJ solids need them for the doubles and for bolt guns that don't feed proper, of which I have zero experience with the doubles. I do have Rugers that will not under any circumstance feed a FN solid, but I leave the rugers at home. I have had zero issues with Winchester M70s. But regardless of that any solid is better than NO SOLID!

Michael