If anybody wants to handgun hunt Africa after July 1st, I suggest that you pick a different country other than South Africa. The regs are changing. No more Thompson Contenders or Encores, unless you have the serial # on both the frame and the barrel. I just got an email from Anne at Air 2000 and she told me that my Taurus Raging Bull was turned down due to it not being a "custom made hunting handgun" whatever that means. Also, if you are thinking about bringing a Remington XP 100 or savage Striker, forget it. They are considered to be "hand carbines". Thank you South Africa!! My trip planned for August just died.

So much for someday using my .500 Linebaugh. Well, like you said, there are other countries.

Russ

Does anyone know , does the barrel and frame have to have the same serial number? I just paid a hefty deposit for a handgun hunt for RSA in May, am I screwed or what?

The barrel and the frame must have the same serial #

just have the ser# stamped or etched into the barrel thats all.

RAC, Look at the posts on the Handgun Hunting forum. Apparently it is a 45 caliber max. Is that not the stupidest regulation you ever heard of???

ya exp since the best hanguns start at 45 and go up from there

My comment will likely provoke an outpouring of conflicting opinions like the discussion of using a 45-70 for Cape buffalo, but I have to admit that this new regulation does not bother me -- in fact, I tend to welcome it -- because I've always considered handgun hunting to be unsporting for large game anyway, say anything larger than a deer-sized (maybe 300 pounds live body weight) animal.



I admit that my opinion may be colored by the fact that I've never been much interested in owning or shooting handguns -- I did own a Ruger .22 autoloader once, but traded it on a Remington 700 in .270 Winchester.

Lloyd, How do you feel about archery hunting large game?

I've just spoken to Insp Conroy who is the top cop in charge of forearm import/export at JIA. He tells me that they have decided that from July 1st ALL firearms bought into the country have to have the serial number stamped on the barrel, the frame and the action. As "most" rifles don't have a frame as such they expect to see the serial number stamped on BOTH the action and the barrel on ALL firearms.



He also tells me that overseas hunters are no longer allowed to bring in a handgun for reasons of self defence and that (as other posters have said) the only handguns allowed for hunting are less than .45 calibre and revolvers.



He tells me that the up to date info is now on their website (just do a search)



I'll talk to PHASA today and see what they say. This act still seems to be changing from day to day, but I would expect the serial number thing to remain unchanged however I'm not so sure about the handgun thing. I'll see if I can discover anything else today and will post the news asap.



But if anyone is coming over soon with rifles, I'd at least suggest that they get their rifles re-stamped to show serial numbers on both barrel and action.

I just got an email from my PH and was told an import permit may be obtained and bringing more than one hanggun will be OK.

Steve,

I have not picked up on any of this. Given what you are saying, every firearm in SA will need re-stamping......that ain't gonna happen.

I did read in the act or regs that numbers will be written on something (tape, tag) and affixed to the firearm while it is still in the country. I will try and forage thru the hundreds of pages of claptrap.
Also, the cops cannot make up their own rules. They have to operate within the act and it's regs and what we need to do is get the clowns to commit to a policy in writing.
I will start working on this with SAGA, SAACA and Martin Hood.

Sorry I did not get to meet you last week with Jason. I was going to be there but had to rush away to Barcelona.

Cheers,
500

TJC, please get me Anne @ air 2000 contact details.
Send me a PM. If we have specifics we can follow up and try and stop this crap.
As a matter of interest, the firearms registry is at a standstill in this country. Half of them have been arrested/suspended for corruption, the rest should be hung for arrogance and incompetence.
Welcome to the government the USA helped put into power

I just went to the website and the FAQ re: visiting hunters haven't been updated since 5/11/00. Just what would you recommend searching for?

Oldsarge, I tried the website approach and found the same as you-NOTHING. serial #'s on rifle barrels, too??? this is getting better by the minute.

Am I understanding this correctly - all long guns must have the serial number on two or more locations. If so what kind of stamping or marking will surfice for these people. Also if transit thru JBerg will the guns be checked?

I'll be goddamned if I'm going to have my Browning Safari rifles stamped on the barrel to satisfy some stuffed shirt!!!

Plenty of other places to hunt other than SA!!!

Guys,

I spoke to insp Conroy this morning, and he told me that ALL rifles fron 1/7/04 will need to have the serial number stamped on the bolt, barrel and receiver.....no exceptions.

I then spoke to PHASA who told me that they have a meeting within the next 48 hours to try to sort it out. But at the moment the comments of Insp Conroy stand. That's the facts right now.

The problem is that they move the goalposts from one hour to the next. All i can do is try to keep on top of the situation and report things as they are at that moment. For those of you who are coming over in the next few weeks I can only suggest you watch this forum and more to the point keep in close contact with your own outfitters.... they're the guys you're paying your money to.

.500 Yes we must get together for a beer or two sometime. Jason hunted the ass off that client. But that's why I pay him so much money!!!

Just a suggestion: Everyone take a deep breath. I'm sure there is a lot of conflicting info that will be floating around about this. We seem to have had these types of threads on here before concerning some change in some regulation in some African country. A lot of messages get posted to the affect of "he said" then "she said", etc. Soon enough the facts will emerge. Let's not forget the recent hub bub we had concerning the in-transit issue that came up about South Africa. Let's just don't all start crying "the sky is falling" before all the facts are in.



My personal opinion, and I have no basis in fact to base it on, is that something is screwy with this. Somehow, I just don't see South Africa turning away foreign hunters over some goofy law or regulation like this. I suspect that some one has misread or misinterpreted something somewhere.



Also, is this new requirement actually in the new firearms regulations or is it something that the cops just decided to enact themselves? That wouldn't fly in the USA but I don't know how the SA legal system works. My question here is based upon Shakari's post which stated, "I've just spoken to Insp Conroy who is the top cop in charge of forearm import/export at JIA. He tells me that they have decided< !--color--> that from July 1st ALL firearms bought into the country have to have the serial number stamped on the barrel, the frame and the action."



Now, please, I'm not trying to make anyone mad here or to start an argument. I'm just trying to throw out some ideas and to also suggest that we all don't over react about this until the facts can be discerned.





-Bob F.

This is a VERBAL only from a Police contact we have .....



As Steve [ Shakari ] says,



Watch this space as the situation is fluid dependant upon whom you talk to .... this is Africa you know at the end of the day it sometimes depends upon whom you are lucky or unlucky to deal with upon arrival on any given day ... KEEP TAKING THE TABLETS and smile when you greet the man at the desk



Peter

==============================



I called the cop guy we know he comfirmed that all hunting rifles will be stamped at JHB INT on arrival. They will have a person on duty who will do it in front of the owners. They will be using the existing serial number of the gun but just marking it on all the other loose parts or detactable parts. Also the hand guns allowed in will be only for hunting and not self defence.

.

Bob, I can only speak for myself, but my information comes from people who SHOULD know of what they speak. Inspector Conroy is in charge of firearms importations, so I would hope the man would know his own regulations. After calming down,and scrapping my handgun hunting plans, I am now going to order a barrel stamp set from Midway @29.95 and have my friend who is an engraver put the serial # on my rifle barrels, just like they want. Seems like a Hell of a lot to go through, but I have been looking forward to this hunt for too long to kiss it goodbye for something this foolish. That said, however, my next African hunt will not be in South Africa.

Guys, the police in this country do as they damn well please and at the end of the day seem to answer to nobody except their ANC political masters.
This new act is causing chaos already, and it is only being officially implemented 1 July.
Steve and Air 2000 were not just whistling Dixie when they soke about the 21 day permit issue. It was in the regs and is still in the regs. The only difference is that since we howled about it, they added a discretionary clause. What is still in the regs is that every person temporarily importing a firearm "may" be required to submit fingerprints and material from his country indicating competency, ownership and permission to take the firearm out of country and a bunch of other stuff. ( I think that pic's, fingerprints etc should be mandatory, you yanks are a shifty lot) Again, after protest they added a discretionary clause. But it is all still in the regs chapt 6, sect 61,-66.
There is nothing in the regs requiring this stamping issue of existing weapons. What this stamping will affect is the manufacture, replacement or repair of firearms, because everything now has to be numbered - actions, barrels, slides etc. So whereas before, if you had your weapon barrel replaced you applied to have the old one scrapped and the new one to have the old number, now you have to go through the whole rigmarole of applying for a new barrel to be licenced. Now when you apply for the licence it will have to reflect the barrel#, action# and if the bolt is replaced, that # as well.
We tried to get the idiots to see logic, but politics held sway. But again, some topcops have decided on a course and will enforce it until challenged in court, and then use taxpayer money to fight the case.
Moves are afoot to bring an injunction against the cops and solicit the help of the minister of tourism to get some semblance of sanity going.

Our SABS are also climbing into the fray for weapons imported into SA over the past few years. They want to proof every one of those firearms and have called on the owners to bring them in, alternatively, they will get the contact details from the police register and contact the owners and suggest they bring them in. This is voluntary (yeah right) at this stage, but who is prepared to put money down that it suddenly becomes mandatory and for a fat fee.

500 Nitro, What do you think the best course of action for us would be. Do we serial # the barrels, or just hope we get around this when we get to Joburg? Thanks, Tom

Nope, stone cold sober, RET.

You've got a Searcy on order, don't you? What if SA decides that they want you to permanently weld a large orange flag on the front of it, maybe to allow the police to spot you better if you decide to go on a sniper spree?

If I'm given the choice of disfiguring fine rifles, and quite likely destroying a lot of their value, or hunting somewhere else, I'll choose the latter option.

Africa is a big place.

Then again, I could always take a Remington or a 45-70.

No, you misunderstood my humor. I'm totally behind you 100 percent. I was saying, about MYSELF, as if in a drunken stupor, "Yeah, go get 'em!" You know... attaboy? That kind of thing.

Just my way of piping in when I had nothing else to say.

I'm with you; I'd never defile any of my firearms for the sake of someone's bureaucratic whim. Nope, no way.

Oh, and, um... I WISH I had a Searcy on order!

Russ

Thanks for the clarification.

I was sure I'd read you had put a deposit on a Searcy. My mistake.

That's me with the Searcy .470 on order... also known often to be in a drunken stupor.

Interestingly, I hunted in RSA with a guy who had a Remington 742. I asked him how he got it in the country and he said he paid $100 to the police. His buddy had two rifles in .375 H&H caliber. It cost him $100 extra, too. I wonder where that money went?

Oh no, I'm being attacked bt Russ again!....think I'll just go and slit my wrists!



All I can say is that the powers that be just keep on changing the rules. I've spoken to Insp Conroy who is the the top cop at JIA (whether Russ likes it or not) and I've spoken to PHASA and to local gundealers and am told the following:



Insp Conroy:- From 1/7/04 ALL rifles coming into RSA will need to have their serial number stamped on the barrel, action and bolt. If they don't then they will not be allowed in. The requirement is in the act which is on the website. No more- no less.



PHASA: Yes it is bloody stupid, and we're trying to get a meeting with the powers that be to discuss things. Until then we're not prepared to issue a statement. The act is available on the SAPS website and until things change they'll remain the same.



My comment: Yes it is bloody silly and extremely unreasonable, but I for one have had my firearms engraved as per the requirement. I'm in and out of RSA like a yo-yo and although I don't like this anymore than anyone else, I can't afford to be without my rifles. What the rest of the forum do is entirely up to them. Russ: If you disapprove of my posts or of Air 2000 or of the act, I suggest you tell the person, company or Government concerned......I'm sure that once they hear of your disapproval, they'll all commit hari-kari and then you can rule the world and make whatever laws you wish.



Until then, I'll try to help the hunting fraternity in general and my clients in particular with this as much as I can. All I can do is keep my ear to the ground and report what I'm told by the various parties.....Just because I'm the messenger, It's no reason shoot me. All I'm doing, is reporting the current situation as it stands at that moment in time.....which appears to be a hell of a lot more than PHASA or most outfitters or agents are doing.



If someone/anyone doesn't like that, then they don't have to read the posts.



Incidentally, the 21 day advance notice of a few months ago, wasn't a "chicken little act" it was what the SAPS were telling us what was required AT THAT TIME......but as I said in a previous post, I don't have a crystal ball and I'm not psychic, so I can't see into the future to know what the next weeks requirements will be.



One last point is that I don't have any interest in Air 2000, but I will be using their services for the foreseeable future (at full price) as I've also just been told by Insp Conroy, PHASA and a local gundealer that the new firearms import form is ten......yes ten pages long. Christ knows what they can find to fill ten pages, but that's the CURRENT situation.



If I hear any more news, from PHASA or the SAPS I'll post it.....if that's alright with you Russ. :

Well, I leave soon for s.a. All I can say is this--after all I have read on gun laws on this website---this is definately going to be my one and only trip to s.a., thats if I dont decide to change my mind and not even go this time. Would I like to go shoot African game?? Sure. I can also go and shoot grizzly bear, moose, elk, caribu and more and have just as good a time and probably more because I won't have to do "the dance" as hard. The facists can stick it as far as I'm concerned...

TJC, perhaps the best option is to have the numbers etched on in fine typeface in an unobstrusive place. We are still seeking clarification but with this bunch of arrogant goons it could take awhile.
I notice that both my pre'64's already have the serial number scribed onto their bolts.
We have a few interesting issues when this act comes into being on the 1st. One issue is the rstriction except for certain exemtions on the maximum amount of primers and or ammo one can legally possess. The goons in power cannot tell us if we immiediately become criminals when the act comes in if we are over the limit, or whether there is a phase in period allowing us to apply for the permits which will allow us to be over the minimums.

Expect for hunters about to fly out, I really don't see what the fuss is about. If the regulations say serial number to be on action barrel and bolt, then either do it or hunt else where.



The whole world is getting deeper and deeper into red tape espcially where firearms are concerned. A lot of it is stupid, but thats the same in every walk of life.



For the travelling hunter this one minor ones...I bet their are plenty of Canadians who who glad engrave such information on their bolts and barrels if it meant they could easily transit the US as the once could.



Now the devil maybe in the detail, but if the serial number can be stamped in very small type face as per 500Nitro, I don't see why it would devalue a firearm; just think how small/unobtrusive proof marks are or even hall marks on jewelry for that matter. Now if the Act stipulates similar stamping as on my CZ550, then people with fine firearms can complain!



For the resident gunowner in RSA I can see that this serial number requirement is only the tip of the iceberg and there is a whole host of other red tape stemming off it, so its those guys I feel sorry for.



Regards,



Pete

Russ,

Your post is the first thing I've seen that makes sense. I think there may be some confusion some times as to what applies to citizens of South Africa as opposed to visiting foreigners. Somebody reads or hears part of a story and then jumps to conclusions or generalizations. It makes sense that for visiting hunters the SA government just wants to make sure that there is an identifying serial number on the weapon. There is a big difference between temporarily imported and permanently imported.

Just my two cents....
-Bob F.