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This topic has been covered before, but shootaways' comments on another post, promted me to make this one...:
Your list should include EVERYONE... why else do you think we carry a gun??? Now that does not mean all of us shoot unnecessarily, but you have to be on the hunt to understand the situation to make any kind of comment on it. I believe there is only 4 instances where a PH should fire a backup shot. 1) when the client expressly ask him to (believe it or not, that is quite common...) 2) when the animal poses an intimidate danger to the hunting party or will in future pose a real danger to the local community or tourists 3) when the animal is within a very short distance of an international boundary or a national park boundary 4) in the case of a attempted brain shot on an elephant, and there is no chance for the client to shoot an immediate follow up shot I am a firm believer that you should get what you paid for, and that is to shoot your own animals. My cartridges are way too expensive anyway... However, I also know that after following a wounded animal for a day or more, more clients would have paid extra money to have had a backup shot... Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | ||
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Karl: Can't beat that list. IF and When it has to be done, DO IT! But, don't shoot just to be making sure without good reason. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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I always tell my PH to shoot whenever they feel like it. But, I think some PHs tend to shoot on a whim every time. Those are the ones I would avoid hunting with. Not sure who it was but one in particular used to fire every time the client did, which is ridiculous. Almost as bad as Mark Sullivan relegating the client to the background so he can have his 15 seconds of self glorification. | |||
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I can fully appreciate backing up on elephant if a boundary is a concern but any shooting by the PH needs to be discussed and clarified between both parties prior to booking a safari or at the very least at the start of a hunt. Indeed a back up if often requested on follow ups on wounded game. I am a great believer that PHs should not shoot at game unless the situation is likely to get out of hand. If I haven't fired my gun by end of season then I feel I have done my job well. However I am not an elephant hunter and those with much more experience than me may beg to differ. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Precisely! A sign of a true professional hunter to be proud he has not fired a single shot as backup. | |||
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I cannot agree more Andrew! Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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On elephants, it might be required so Karl’s list is a must for client " Until the day breaks and the nights shadows flee away " Big ivory for my pillow and 2.5% of Neanderthal DNA flowing thru my veins. When I'm ready to go, pack a bag of gunpowder up my ass and strike a fire to my pecker, until I squeal like a boar. Yours truly , Milan The Boarkiller - World according to Milan PS I have big boar on my floor...but it ain't dead, just scared to move... Man should be happy and in good humor until the day he dies... Only fools hope to live forever “ Hávamál” | |||
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I have to agree with Andrew in general, with most game. Also like Andrew this is a subject that should be clarified before camp is left on day one of a safari. In the case of elephant my opinion, and it is only my opinion, because I have not hunted elephant, I would agree with those PHs who fire a back-up if the brain is not hit by the client, he should try to get at least a shot through the lungs, and both continue to shoot as long as the ele is in sight, especially if the hunt is close to a border where we can't follow. I would trust Andrew to use his own judgement about when he should shoot. After all his rifle is an insurance policy that is a hedge making my going home alive posible. .....................................................................  Mac....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Price tag aside, if there is a tinge of emotion, it will surely manifest itself when this Goliath of an animal is laid out at your feet, its life extinguished by your own hand; its demise has more of a psychological impact to the hunter than that experienced after the killing of any other species of game. Some people are convinced that shooting a target as wide as a barn door is not a difficult task and that there is no need for any assistance in a backup shot. In theory this would be very true yet our friend Murphy is a known lurker and the SOB has the habit of popping up unannounced at the wrong moment. A wounded elephant can go several hundred yards and drop as it can go several miles and not drop, often to be lost forever. If uninvited, the client should be told that if there is doubt on the first shot, the PH will immediately expedite one for insurance at a usually fast disappearing rear-end. A frontal charge requires no invitation! A self-respecting PH will however attempt to place a shot intended to slow or anchor the animal and allow the client to finish a half-botched job. Should the client be of the obnoxious type, similar to one unnamed Spaniard who made no bones about warning his PH against backing him up no matter the circumstances, witnessed his wounded elephant walk several miles, crossing the Ruvuma River and disappearing into Mozambique. The "assist" referred to in DG hunting is not to be associated with the inglorious antics of some PHs whom we have often seen on tape shooting shot after shot at any and all animals that may have been wounded by the client. | |||
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Karl,you know what I am talking about...I am not talking about shots that are absolutely necessary.Let me put it another way.Lets assume a PH does 1000 hunts in their lifetime. I am sure there will be some that shot only ten times and some that shot three hundred. | |||
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Speaking as a client, I do appreciate the discussion ahead of the hunt as to who is backing what up. Have had two less than successful back up shots ( by apprentices, not the PH), one on an elephant, he missed by a couple feet, with a scope, the other on a croc by about the same. On the elephant, I shot the first shot, saw the impact about six inches back of where I wanted it, the apprentice shot about two feet further aft right after. My next followup was right on and the elephant went down at the edge of the river in the tall grass. It was last light, if the elephant and kept going 50 feet, he would be lost in the REALLY tall stuff, no hope of retrieval, if he turned back he was across the border into Botswana, equally bad. I had no issue with the PH assigning the apprentice to back up, just wish he shot better. The other was on a croc at waters edge, my shot was perfect, but he shot anyway ( different apprentice ). Skipped a round off the back of the croc, mine was right at the base of the skull. Since then, myself and that particular PH have agreed, if I can see the shot, I can take it if I want. If he wants a shot from me, I can take it or wait. We have shot several more elephants and buffalo, plus a lot of plains game, without so much as a word between us. He is now pretty confident that if I say I can hit it, I will. Having said that, we have made some moves to keep the game where it has less options to run or hide, makes the shot selection easier. Karl, thanks for starting the discussion, I do think it is an area that is not discussed as mutes it should be prior to getting boots on the ground. It must be tougher for the PH, considering that other than sighting in, the first time you may get to evaluate a hunters marksmanship, is face to face with a DG animal. I'd probably want back up too, in my hands, not the apprentices, were I in your shoes..... Incidentally, the two apprentices I speak of, are now DG PH's as well. I do keep that in mind when hunting with new PH's, can he shoot as well as needed? Master of Boats, Slayer of Beasts, Charmer of the fair sex, ...... and sometimes changer of the diaper..... | |||
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I practice at home, firing a deliberate first shot, followed by a fast 2nd and 3rd. I always tell my PH the following: "I will not fire an initial shot unless I feel that I will be able to place it precisely where I want. After that, I shoot pretty quickly and will back my first shot up if cover permits. However; I have ZERO interest in wounding or losing an animal. If you even SUSPECT that my first shot was not placed well, I would appreciate any backup shots you can put in." Near an international or park boundary, I would probably ask for backup right out of the gate. Especially in thick cover. Brain shot on Elephant? Duh! If he doesn't collapse, you have missed the brain and you are a fool if you tell your PH not to shoot. Everyone should be firing at this point. And we have all seen a well placed bullet hit a bone and divert it's path. As Fulvio said, "our friend Murphy is a known lurker." I would not hunt with a PH who wants to collaborate on all DG. But I wouldn't be upset later if he felt backup shots were needed. | |||
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I've always left it up to the PH. I've never had one fire a backup shot yet but, I've always told them that if they feel it necessary, to have at it. Guns and hunting | |||
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I have always had the PH initiate the discussion the first time we hunt together. Maybe I have a different set of folks than Shootaway has experienced. I have yet to have the PH even shoulder the rifle when I’m being set up for a first shot. I’ve pooched a few shots in my day and lost 3 animals total- a warthog, an impala, and one buffalo. The warthog everyone was sure it was dead, the impala we found huge chunks of shoulder bone, but no animal or tracks, and the buff I just placed the shot too far back and he ran off in to another concession area. All were plain poor shooting and the PH did try on the buffalo as it ran off. I’ve wounded a few that we ended up catching up with later and even then the PHs were doing their best to let me sort it out by myself. Pretty much the only times they shot was to prevent an animal from suffering needlessly, or to protect others. I have never felt a PH shot too much or quickly or that they didn’t get involved when needed. Communication is the key in avoiding ugly incidences on both sides. | |||
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I have to agree with Karl, well said. I've told all my clients that I'm not there to shoot their animal, (and YES, my bullets are far too expensive hahaha), but I'm not going to ask or hesitate to pull one off on points 2&4 and possibly 3. But I discuss this with the client on arrival day at tea-time. On wounded game; for PG-I almost never shoot unless client can no longer keep up with follow up; with DG- depends on situation but obviously try to get him/her to finish it off except for point 2. I'm lucky in the sense that in 18 years of guiding I've had 2 seasons where I never had to pull a shot off (one of those seasons was only plains game). Bit of a bummer when you get to the reloading bench in December.... Hunt Well, Hunt Safe | |||
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It’s a hard call. I have been backed up only once, when Vaughan Fulton and I were being charged by a lion. We fired at the same time. It was fully warranted. Otherwise, I’d have split the trophy fee.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Hunt with someone that you trust and trust their judgment. I would never consider telling a PH not to back up a shot if they felt a backup was appropriate. Seems a bit like a vanity issue candidly. Mike | |||
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+1, I've always considered that my PHs were a better judge of the situation than I would be. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I always subscribed to Roy Vincent's rule as to why PH rifles should not be heavy - "carry it a lot, shoot it a little".... | |||
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Poor Roy. He made me and Alan suffer his non stop tongue lashings in the past, now he is at the receiving end of ours!  | |||
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What Baker said. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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A few years back four or five of us drove up into Angola to do some fishing. I was low on sharks. After that was over we drove back to the outfitter's property by Kamanjab. I am a hunter, not some lousy no account fisher,  so I borrowed a 416 Rigby with about five or six shells from the outfitter and went for a walkabout to see what I could bag in the limited time that I had left before going back to Canada.For some reason, a brand new guide had been hired for that very day and he came along to ... guide, I reckon. I think he was about 21 and the rifle that he brought was a genuine British Lee Enfield in 303, of course. I know that there are millions of those rifles in existence but this was the first PH that I had ever seen carry one. Iron sighted. I shot a really nice warthog that afternoon and from there we walked at a very fast pace to an area that gemsbok would feed in. Eventually we walked around a corner and about 150-200 yards away was a gemsbok. Just what we were looking for. The young guy quickly sat down and told me to put my rifle on his shoulder for a rest. The shot was taken and the oryx ran into the thorn bush. The young man hared it as fast as he could to the original spot where the antelope was standing with me coming up behind him. As he arrived he threw up his rifle and fired at the gemsbok head rushing through the bush. That was all that he could see. He shot it right through the head. Stone cold dead. Hmmm. A brilliant shot. One of the very best shots that I have ever seen. I looked the beautiful animal over and then told the dude that there was only one hole in it. He had shot a different gemsbok on his first day at this job. What are those things worth ? Maybe $800?  He rushed into the bush after the wounded animal and jumped it at only a few yards. It ran into a little clearing and he had a clear shot and totally missed. One of the worst shots that I have ever seen. About then I told the guy to let me shoot my gemsbok. He stepped aside and I gunned it. Back up, huh? | |||
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Classic. Bit like the PH who backed up on the Leopard before the client had shot. Hair trigger I guess? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I think it is incumbent upon the hunter to practice with their rifle as much as possible to ensure a clean kill. I also believe that every foreign hunter should have a conversation with their PH about what to expect when things don't happen according to plan. To tell a PH they shouldn't back you up under any circumstance is vain and arrogant. They have the responsibility to ensure the safety of everyone in the hunting party as well as making sure wounded game isn't lost. It is a pity that egos can get in the way of that. | |||
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Rx, let me tell you a story about that... I bokked 2 European clients for elephant, and Fred and another PH were hunting with them. The guy hunting with Fred, told him that Fred was not to shoot unless both his double's barrels were empty. So, he wounded an elephant, with both barrels, and they continued to follow it for 3 days and 60 miles... by that time he phoned me (where I was hunting with another client in another area) begging to buy another elephant from me. I told him, that as long as they can distinguish the wounded bull's tracks from possible others, they are to stick to the wounded bull, either with Fred, or Fred alone. They did shoot the bull the next day, but the client was completely worn down... Scruffy, funny story by the way! Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Let it not come as a surprise when I tell you such individuals exist. This one particular fellow was part of the "Know All" category and when you come up against these types, any form of debate is like pissing against the wind. If it was of any consolation, when at the end of the hunt the PH wrote out the five figure number for the damage done (Wounded/Lost) he must have been wearing a smile befitting a Colgate ad.! | |||
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I tell the PH to shoot if he feels it is needed to avoid a long follow up or there is imminent danger. My only request is that I get to shoot first. I have had PH's shoot four times and it was needed. | |||
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+1 | |||
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From my fist african safari I learned to always discuss with the ph about him shooting too. He should never shoot unless he can actually tell that you made a bad shot. Case in point; if you miss a brain shot on an elephant then he has to shoot preferably for a chest shot to bring the animal down at a reasonable distance rather than risking it running a great distance and being lost. | |||
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A well-known PH told me of an elephant hunting client he had. The client shot at an elephant at 40 yards, missing cleanly. Before realizing that the client missed, the PH fired a backup shot that was placed too far back on the running elephant. The animal was never found, but there was no fresh hyena sign in the area for nearly two weeks. After hearing the story, I felt it was not prudent to ask if the client had paid the trophy fee. Personally, I have no problem with the PH backing me up on dangerous game, as long as I get to take the first shot. | |||
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Ok, we call it BACKUP when an honest to goodness hunter is hunting with an honest to goodness Professional Hunter. What do we call it when cowardly wimp hunts with a ME ME ME LOOK AT HOW BRAVE I AM. Nut case pretending to be a professional hunter? A well known, long time member asked me this! I like his sense humor, but not his wimping out of posting it himself!  | |||
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If the client totally missed the target the PH had no business in shooting. There has been credible talk about some clients requesting the PH to do the shooting on their behalf for fear of missing.  | |||
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How does someone cleanly miss an elephant at 40 yards??? I realize brain shots can be very tricky, and are commonly missed,...... but how does a hunter miss the entire elephant at 40 yards?? Go Duke!! | |||
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If the elephant escaped, how did they know that it was missed by the hunter? | |||
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All I can say is that I related the story exactly as the PH told it to me. Yes, it is more than a little puzzling that anyone could miss an elephant completely at 40 yards. I believe that the hunt was videoed, which could explain why the PH knew the client's shot was a clean miss. No doubt that many of us on AR are at least acquainted with the names of the client and PH, but the story was told to me in confidence, and I have no intention of revealing the identities of either of them, or of the safari company, since at least two of the three have excellent reputations. If nothing else, the incident reveals the pitfalls of an immediate backup by a PH, sans a charge, of course. | |||
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On missing an elephant at 40 yards. I have an elephant hunting story that I never tell on the beginning of a safari. Over sundowners on the last night or maybe on the drive back to the airport after the hunt. It is better that way. | |||
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