Once again I will be the skunk at the lawn party (a figure of speech known only to Americans) Why do hunters for DG assume that South Africa is the place to go? A minumum of research on the internet would say where to go to shoot DG in a truly African experience -and I went so long ago that there was no internet. I'm not really sorry for the "hunter" - I'm sorry that people just dreaming about a trip to Frica have to read about this kind of story -and want to cancel their dream. Don't! However you do it, get to Africa! It is an incredible place in every way and this old North American hunter of some 50 years experience when he went was awed by the experience.

Ummm, because they want to shoot drugged lions in pens, so they can hang the taxidermy in the corporate boardroom and make everyone think they are real men?

Larry Sellers:

Sorry I just saw this. I have been pretty busy.

There are a number of them. David van der Muelen is a notable one that come to mind. SCI PH of the year. Wanted in more than one country. Ripped off a bunch of people.

Sorry, i don't have time to research a complete list.

Alan Bunn:

Sadly, I came some while ago to believe that we have a breed of "corporate hunters" who go for exactly that reason. I'll tell you a story told to me by my PH - The outfitter had a bunch of people from a certain company who had received the African trip as a reward for successful salesmen. MY PH took one of them out for buff. He fired at the buff at about 100 yards range. Unfortunately (for two reasons) the buff spotted who shot at him and came in a charge. The "client" (hunter?) turned and dropped his rifle and ran. The PH shot the buff about 40 feet away. But, hold on, that's not the end of the story. At a somewhat ceremonial dinner in Harare (Zimbabwe) some days later, the "client"-"hunter" was praised for the buff he had shot - and he stood up and beamed and thanked everyone! I accused my PH of being a damn liar -and, of course, knew he was telling me the truth.

Alan Bunn:

AS a follow up to my last post - The Spaniards have a great expression - "la hora de verdad" (the hour of truth) - it, of course, refers to when you face real danger (as a bullfighter) - and how you react in that time. I never faced an elephant or a lion in the charge -but I did face a buff at about 35 yards who was turning towards me. It's why we want to hunt DG - to try to prove ourselves (how well we shoot has nothing to do with it -it's whether we will stand up and face a DG)

Alan Bunn,

where hell have you been hiding

nice to see you post again. You are very correct on others involved--------but trying to prove that will be difficult.
Watch OoA just do a name change and the game will just continue-just different faces---- just like the blue light thugs in S. Africa( Alan, I know you will get this )

Larry Shores- Nothing personal here, just wondered what you meant by a disturbing number? I know there are probably some at SCI who definitely fit the bill as in any organization of this size. I guess "one" would/should be a disturbing number, but again an organization of SCI's size is bound to turn up a bad apple or three.

In no way do I adhere to or condone the things that OoA is reported to have done!! In this "suit happy" World we live in, organizations and private citizens as well have to be extremly careful in refusing services without just cause.

If the "criminals" in SCI are confronted and dealt with, so much to the good. But I don't think the majority of SCIers are criminal in nature. End of rant.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Larry Sellers:

Sorry I just saw this. I have been pretty busy.

There are a number of them. David van der Muelen is a notable one that come to mind. SCI PH of the year. Wanted in more than one country. Ripped off a bunch of people.

Sorry, i don't have time to research a complete list.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Larry Sellers:

Sorry I just saw this. I have been pretty busy.

There are a number of them. David van der Muelen is a notable one that come to mind. SCI PH of the year. Wanted in more than one country. Ripped off a bunch of people.

Sorry, i don't have time to research a complete list.

I think there has been more than one SCI PH Of The Year who turned out to be a criminal.

In fact, I have a personal black list of outfitters and PH to be avoided at any cost. And anyone who get this award from SCI is automatically added to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And anyone who get this award from SCI is automatically added to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Lorenzo:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
And anyone who get this award from SCI is automatically added to it.

Saeed - Very predictable response.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Saeed - Very predictable response.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry,

I have no time for crooks, regardless of how much glory SCI bestows on them.

It seems there have been at least 3 PH of the Year award winners who have turned out to be crooks.

Larry,
In my opinion, Saeed hit it, the hoops one must jump through for the SCI International hunter of the year award are such that most honest operators would simply not even make the effort.

Nganga

There is certainly more than one that ended up being criminals.

I did not mean to imply that they all are criminals. Some are extraordinary human beings and excellent hunters.

quickshot: you know the story of the tar baby... he doan say nuthin'

Yep, makin' a list, checkin' it twice.

Those blue lights will start flashin' soon, it fact, they already are.

quote:

Originally posted by Alan Bunn:

Those blue lights will start flashin' soon, it fact, they already are.

Alan, don't ya think that few more shady characters wil emerge from the S. African Blue light gangs??
how is the judge doing? Is he still fighting the battle with OoA?

quote:

In fact, I have a personal black list of outfitters and PH to be avoided at any cost. And anyone who get this award from SCI is automatically added to it.

The "glory hunters" do create issues. A PH told me the story of a late-twenties dude from NYC who arrived in camp to hunt Buffalo. He opens his hardcase and hands my guy a Wby 460 (in the box), a scope (also in the box), rings, bases,etc and says (with a straight face) "can you stick this together for me?".

Makes you wonder some days...

Rich
DRSS

Some outfitter/PHs start out legitimately and develop good reputations over some years and all of a sudden go south. More often than not they've got themselves into a financial bind and can't see a way out. It usually takes at least a full season for the change from ethical to crooked to be recognized throughout the industry. Sometimes longer.

As to OoA, I first met the three "owners" over 10 years ago, not too long after they began operations as OoA. It didn't take me very long to realize something just didn't seem right about their operation. As I was involved in SCI chapter operations at the time, they continuously asked me to come hunting with them, as I was at that time doing a safari per year, and always ensuring me they would "take care" of me. I always managed to defer. After a few years we lost contact but I've watched them ever since. Suffice it to say that the current situation with Dawie did not surprise me. I, too, am sure there is more to come.

Remember this when dealing with anyone in the safari business: JDLR which means Just Doesn't Look (Sound or Smell) Right, and if it doesn't, it likely isn't. For instance, when you're told you can take a Leopard if one is available at no increase to your PG hunt - run away fast.

Saeed - I have no time for crooks either. Lets see 3 SCI Hunter of the Year Winners that have gone bad, out of what, 30 to 33 Award winners. That's only 10% bad apples. So to exclude the other 90% on your premise that they must all be bad isn't very realistic.

Just wondering if the outfit you hunt with in Tanzania has a booth at SCI? One of my friends at last years SCI Convention pointed out your pictures in one of the booths there. Nice trophies by the way.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Saeed - Very predictable response.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry,

I have no time for crooks, regardless of how much glory SCI bestows on them.

It seems there have been at least 3 PH of the Year award winners who have turned out to be crooks.

quote:

That's only 10% bad apples

Would you eat at a certain lists of restraunts if one out of ten of them gave you salmonella?

Would you buy a car from a certain list of brands or models if one out of ten were defective?

Would you buy ammunition from a crtain list of loads or brands that would mis-fire one out of ten times?

...?

One out of ten is a HUGE proportion of crooks who are named PH of the year, if that is the ratio. And my recollection tells me that it is.

How damned hard would it be to limit the candidates, and then the selection to honest hunters, of which there are plenty?

JPK

Bloody HELL!

10% bad ones!?

That is an extremely high number if SCI did their due deligence.

OK OK, they do, and they picked the ones who paid more bribes to the top management.

It is the same with the SCI so called "ethics" committee.

If there is was ever an oxymoron, this must be IT!

SCI needs to get their head from the sand, and start calling a spade a spade.
Not turn a blind eye because someone is "donating" hunts to them!

I may be in the minority, but I like the SCI record book, I think they should be honoring top PH's and guides, and I have no problem with them asking for donations to help fund the good works that the organization does.

I agree that it would be better as far as the donations if they were a bit more aboveboard with it.

However, I do not like the way this is going.

A SCI president (or president elect or whatever they call him) being associated with a outfit like OOA is bad. The fact that he is their attorney makes it even worse (ie he should have some knowledge of the chicanery).

Part of this, I'm sure is the disgusting american institution of the lawsuit with large damages (the org would rather not risk a loss of millions of dollars losing a suit for defamation) but that doesn't mean you take money from them either.

Related to the comments on the PH of the year, I was told by a PH I respect that the main way to "win" SCI PH of the year was to donate a hunt for a SCI bigwig and get them a "top ten" animal. This particular PH also had some hair raising stories about SCI big shots handing their rifle to the PH and telling them to go shoot their animal, as the conditions were too hot/muggy/whatever. Given this, although I feel that we (yes I'm a member) should honor top PH's, I am not sure how to do it. Perhaps just giving it to the top NA and other PH by average quality and number of trophies entered into the SCI book by members who hold no position within the national organization? Then it would be pretty aboveboard how it was done, and anyone could see how they arrived at the person selected.

The SCI leadership should be forced to give a binding listing of conflicts of interest for several years surrounding their terms and step aside if there is a conflict with them and someone doing business or coming before their committee. This should be open to the membership at large.

I think if this happened, you would have less "questioning" of SCI's motives.

I do think overall SCI is good. Certainly there are a few bad apples, but it shouldn't spoil the barrel, and what other choices do we have?

I agree with Saeed.

I am a life member. I have been to the convention every year except one for the the last 20+ years. It bothers me even one person could have risen to the level of SCI PH of the year and have them end up being someone like David van der Muelen. Their motto is "first for hunters". It seem to me that they really do very little to protect us from operators like OOA.

Another prime example is Usangu. Usangu did horrible things. They not only stole money, they did things that jeopardized the lives of some of their clients. I would have though that SCI would have acted quickly. They only acted after immense pressure was put on them by a number of people. Doesn't sound like "first for hunters" to me.

I sent SCI an e mail about the OOA things and other issues as well. It was almost 2 weeks ago. They have yet to respond. I find that troubling as well.

LS - Looks like we are on different sides again?
While I believe SCI should do everything in it's power to make sure vendors at their Convention are of good sound character and upright. But. I do not "expect" SCI to protect "me" from unsavory outfitters. Last I looked SCI doesn't offer this type of babysitting service, nor should they.

Most here are grown up folks who have the capacity and experience to research hunt opportunities, outfitters creditability, read the AR and SCI hunt reports and make their "own" decisions on who to hunt with. Expecting any organization to do what you suggest just isn't going to happen. Kinda resonates of what the current Administration is trying to do, by "telling" us what is best for us??

I was in no way suggesting that the NRA was guilty of anything other than being dupped by the same group/groups that some others have fallen prey to.

Larry Sellers (the other LS)
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I agree with Saeed.

I am a life member. I have been to the convention every year except one for the the last 20+ years. It bothers me even one person could have risen to the level of SCI PH of the year and have them end up being someone like David van der Muelen. Their motto is "first for hunters". It seem to me that they really do very little to protect us from operators like OOA.

Another prime example is Usangu. Usangu did horrible things. They not only stole money, they did things that jeopardized the lives of some of their clients. I would have though that SCI would have acted quickly. They only acted after immense pressure was put on them by a number of people. Doesn't sound like "first for hunters" to me.

I sent SCI an e mail about the OOA things and other issues as well. It was almost 2 weeks ago. They have yet to respond. I find that troubling as well.

I only made one trip to Africa (for buff)and had the happy sensation of reading in the SCI Record Book that he made the SCI Record Book (Ninth Ed,Africa, p.89)-but even then I was uneasy about SCI's awards for doing what I would call a "clean sweep" on certain species. (It bothered me then as a hunter and still does - no arguments,please. I'm just saying what I thought then) These posts on this thread bother the hell out of me. Obviously experienced African hunters are making these posts - If SCI cares about its reputation there should be a damn good explanation coming about just what is their connection with this matter -and, by the way, shouldn't SCI mention that half of South Africa isn't tropical country at all - and therefore doesn't have any naturally born and raised (by their mothers) leopards in the wild at all? But apparently the South Africans are expert in selling American hunters that they can hunt DG in SA. Too bad.

Larrysellers:

I think we largely agree. All I am suggesting is that they should take action when they receive legitimate complaints.

I counted quickly, but I am fairly certain there were 48 recipients of the SCI PH of the year award, and only two were rescinded. That's 4% not 10%, although even that is too many.

Let's take a look at the two guys who lost their awards: Everyone agrees David van der Muelen was a scoundrel without peer in his profession, but he waited until AFTER he received the award and was enjoying his biggest season ever to pull off his scam and skip town with everyone's money.

The other guy, if I remember correctly, was found to be cheating on the record book entries of his clients to attract clients to whom big trophies are important. That's bad, but it's nothing on the scale of van der Muelen's crime.

However, to paint every recipient of the PH award with the same brush as the one used on van der Muelen is unfair to those who are hard-working, experienced and honest. I happen to know about a dozen of them, and can tell you that to a man (and one young woman) all are decent folks.

The list I pulled from the SCI website is below.

Bill Quimby

PROFESSIONAL HUNTER
AWARD RECIPIENTS

Cotton Gordon, Zambia, Tanzania, NA(1980)
Jan Oelofse, Namibia (1981)
Gerry Poitras, NA(1982)
Gary Powell, NA(1983)
Jose Simoes, Sudan (1984)
Lynn Castle, NA(1985)
Award rescinded (1986)
Nassos Roussos, Ethiopia (1987)
Phil Driver, NA(1988)
RickMartin, NA(1989)
Dick Gunlogson, NA(1990)
FredWebb, NA(1991)
Gary Joll, New Zealand (1992)
Fernando Saiz, Spain (1993)
Marion &Mary Scott, NA(1993)
Award rescinded (1994)
Sam Fejes, NA(1994)
Volker Grellmann, Namibia (1995)
Keith Johnson, NA(1995)
Kevin ‘Mick’McCormick, Aust. (1996)
Gary Vince, NA(1996)
Joe Klutsch, NA(1997)
Gerard Pasanisi, Tanzania (1997)
Wayne Long, NA(1998 )
Jeffrey Lynn Rann, Botswana (1998)
Miles Bradford, NA(1999)
Doug Scandrol, NA(1999)
Peter Swanepoel, Zambia (1999)
Gary Butch King Jr., NA(2000)
Ronnie Sparrow, Zimbabwe (2000)
Jimmie C. Rosenbruch, NA(2001)
Mike Hodder, New Zealand (2001)
Louis Albert Schreiner, II, NA(2002)
Adya Tundev,Mongolia (2002)
DaveWiens, NA(2003)
Jim Hunter, New Zealand (2003)
EugeneW.C. YAP, NA(2004)
Marcelo Sodiro, Argentina (2004)
Laurent Delagrange, NA(2005)
Francisco Pizarro, Argentina (2005)
TerryWilkenson, NA(2006
Gary Herbert, New Zealand (2006)
Kirk Kelso, NA(2007)
John Abraham, South Africa (2007)
Alisha Rosenbruch-Decker, NA(2008)
Dirk de Bod, Namibia (2008)
Jim Shockey, NA(2009)
Giuseppe Carrizosa, Spain (2009)

quote:

Everyone agrees David van der Muelen was a scoundrel without peer in his profession, but he waited until AFTER he received the award and was enjoying his biggest season ever to pull off his scam and skip town with everyone's money.

And the KC chapter wanted me to pay up for a hunt with him that I bought at the auction that year. Just because they got scammed they wanted me to cover it!

I quit the KC chapter!

"I quit the KC chapter!"

I would have been out the door, too.

Bill Quimby

Bill Q - Thanks for the research and findings on the SCI PH of the Year award winners. I agree, to paint all the award winners with the same brush as the 2 bad apple ones is really off in left field. Some on here are always on the lookout for ways to slam SCI and will take whatever measures serve their need.

Again thanks for posting the actual list. I have hunted with a couple of the "good guy" winners on the list and didn't even realize that they were award winners.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Bill Q - Thanks for the research and findings on the SCI PH of the Year award winners. I agree, to paint all the award winners with the same brush as the 2 bad apple ones is really off in left field. Some on here are always on the lookout for ways to slam SCI and will take whatever measures serve their need.

Again thanks for posting the actual list. I have hunted with a couple of the "good guy" winners on the list and didn't even realize that they were award winners.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

I don't think the effort was to paint all of the recipients with a broad brush, just the morons who nominated and then selected "bad apples" from amoungst the plentiful "good apples."

And no, SCI doesn't have a mission to baby sit and shouldn't. But SCI's actions wrt OoA put its imprimitur on OoA, and so it owes the duty to its members to have doen reasonable dilligence to endure that OoA, and others who it and its officers choose to all but endorse, are above boards.

Having erred in that respect, SCI and its officers owe it members a timely correction, words and in actions.

JPK

I think there are at least two names in the list above that I have heard unfavourable reports here.

Saeed - There are very few if any outfitters in the World who have been in business for a dozen or more years that don't have a few unhappy clients who most likely have voiced unfavorable reports in some fashion or another.

As a Professional Outfitter myself, there have been several times clients have had less than optimum hunts. Most of the time this is beyond the outfitters control, such as weather conditions, excessive game pressure in an area, and so on.

I would bet that everyone on that list has had a client or two that was uphappy for one reason or another. Lots of difference in this than being an outfitter who purposly sets out to cheat the hunter. Just because YOU have heard an unfavourable report on someone on the list doesn't make them a real "bad apple" like those being talked about here. Hearsay with no facts is not really worth much.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think there are at least two names in the list above that I have heard unfavourable reports here.

GP375,

six weeks I might have agreed with you about SA leopards. Except, I was about 100K from Ellisras two weeks ago and saw leopard tracks made the night before. Big tracks, made the night before.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think there are at least two names in the list above that I have heard unfavourable reports here.

C'mon mate... there have been some unfavourable report or another from just about every one of them above and just about every safari company that ever existed!!

No doubt there are a couple that have been exposed over the years but that would happen in any industry...

Out of Africa had a booth at the recent Central Florida SCI banquet. Needless to say.....I told anyone who stopped by their booth to run...don't walk. I've been hearing about these folks for at least the last 2 years or so.....If SCI continues dealing with them, they have seen my last dollar. I believe in proving the guilt....but I'm quite sure that's been taken care of.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

GarBy,

It would be interesting to know how many of the people who run the Central Florida SCI chapter have been 'hunting' with Out of Africa.

Then, examine the experience of the rank and file members who went later, based on the recommendations of their leadership.

The Georgia chapter banned Out of Africa several years ago, after some of the GA/SCI leaders 'hunted' on war vet confiscated farms and the Gwaai Conservancy.

Despite efforts to promote Out of Africa, a courageous president and Board of Directors rejected all subsequent donations.

It is pity that the Central Florida chapter has failed to take the same steps.

~Alan