I have been out of the loup for awhile and not have a brother in law intersted in hunting Africa. I was under the impression that lion were not a free ranging species there. Please correct me if I am wrong. Under what conditions are Lion hunted in the Republic of South Africa?

there are no conditions. it's a free market economy and anyone willing to pay the price to shoot a captive bred and raised lion is able to do so. it is certainly cheaper than hunting a truly wild lion elsewhere, with essentially a 100% success rate. but you get what you pay for- a shoot rather than a hunt. how could the hunts be successful in 5-7 days if the lions were wild?

If you search this forum you will have no problem finding a palethera of information on this topic and on the condition of lion hunting in other countries.

Brett

People will tell you you can't hunt a free range lion in RSA on a short hunt but you can to to Tanz and shoot one prebaited on the first day of your $$$$$$$$$$$ hunt.

I don't recall any outfitters saying come to Africa and hunt your game they all say come to Africa and shoot your game, because we all know who the hunters are and who are the shooters, eh.

Sadly 99% of Lions shot in RSA are not wild. Canned can be a broad term but 99% are definitely canned Lions, ie guaranteed, dont let anyone tell you otherwise; some honest overseas clients have been scammed into believing their Lion was wild when they are anything but. Madikwe, Pilansberg, Timbavati, Klaserie and maybe one or two other areas are the only ones that offer self sustaining, naturally breeding populations of huntable Lions.

308,

Scott is correct. The areas that he described are the only ones offering true free range lion hunting in RSA that I'm aware of. The hunting is very good BTW and the trophies can be incredible but the prices and restriction on how the hunt is conducted can be prohibitive. I have some video on a couple of Timbavati lions I could send you if you'd like.

I think Scott is right to an extent, but only to an extent. Even the Lions that are genuinly from the parks are so habituated to people and vehicles their behaviour patterns are totally different to a truly wild Lion from a true wilderness area. Admittedly it could be argued that they're possibly no less wild than Lions that come out of the EA parks, but from my experience the EA ex parks Lions only see a fraction of the traffic that the southern ex parks Lions see and consequently are considerably wilder than their southern cousins.

Theres also the factor that in EA you won't ever find a ringer introduced into the area from elsewhere.

quote:

People will tell you you can't hunt a free range lion in RSA on a short hunt but you can to to Tanz and shoot one prebaited on the first day of your $$$$$$$$$$$ hunt.

I don't recall any outfitters saying come to Africa and hunt your game they all say come to Africa and shoot your game, because we all know who the hunters are and who are the shooters, eh.

DOJ

Could you explain this above quote to me? I'm a little dense and I have the flu. Are you saying that given enough money you can pre bait yourself into a guaranteed lion in Tanzania? And didn't we have some previous discussion about shooters and hunters? If I understood you correctly if you shoot quite a few animals on a safari you have not hunted them. Is that correct?

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I think Scott is right to an extent, but only to an extent. Even the Lions that are genuinly from the parks are so habituated to people and vehicles their behaviour patterns are totally different to a truly wild Lion from a true wilderness area. Admittedly it could be argued that they're possibly no less wild than Lions that come out of the EA parks, but from my experience the EA ex parks Lions only see a fraction of the traffic that the southern ex parks Lions see and consequently are considerably wilder than their southern cousins.

Theres also the factor that in EA you won't ever find a ringer introduced into the area from elsewhere.

I agree with you on this one - but possibly only to an extend:

Let me start by saying: I do not know if it ever happens and I do not make any accusations against the Hunting Outfitters fortunate enough to be able to hunt there. For all I know they are all honest and upright fellows, and I will assume that until more info is available. But my question to which I honsetly do not know the answer to is: How many of the lions hunted in

quote:

Madikwe, Pilansberg, Timbavati, Klaserie and maybe one or two other areas

referred to by Scott450 were bought from a captive lion breeding operation and released from a cage on the second last day of the hunt?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Guys,

I might make a suggestion that you trip on up to Bonwa Phala and accuse Garry Kelly of hunting released lions in the Timbavati where he has taken several. In fact if you'd like I'll tell him that you feel that way and maybe he'll come knock on your door. The hunts are all tracking with some going into a second 14 day hunt before success. Seems like alot of work to pull the wool over a client's eyes. I might suggest that you guys have no idea what restrictions the owners of the Timbavati put on the hunt and how hard it would be to do something unethical with the Timbavatis private game warden looking over your shoulder.

The lack of restraint some of you show with your unfounded accusations about how a hunt might be conducted is just reckless in my opinion.

Mark

Tanzania does not allow prebaiting...If I remember correctly..

Mike

Andrew there is as much chance of a lion from Madikwe, Pilansberg ,Timbavati or Klaserie being canned as there is of a Tanzanian lion being canned. If anything is a downside on hunting any of the above it is the amount of monitoring by the conservation management in the respective areas.

Steve in terms of the wild lions being harder to hunt, i have hunted an area in the Luangwa where some of the lions had definitely never seen people and on occasion they would stand and stare when the guys happened upon them in the bush. Not always but they were so unhabituated to humans that they (humans) were not seen as a threat.The PH whose area it was ran 100% on lion in that area.

Mark,

I don't think anyone was implying that all outfitters in that area or even some of them are shady and put out ringer lions. I think the idea was more that because you're in RSA it is possible where as Tanzania it isn't possible. I suppose like anything, if you do your research and book with reputable outfitters you'll cover your bases.

Brett

Scott,

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on some of this - esp regarding your first para. I believe Andrew is dead right in what he says in his article and back him 110% on it.

Regarding your second para, I didn't say one was more difficult to hunt than the other, I said they have very different behaviour patterns and that one kind was truly wild and the other habituated. That doesn't make one more dangerous than the other or one harder to hunt than the other, it just makes them behave differently to each other.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly wild Lion in South Africa, and as has been discussed here and in the articles I posted links to state, there are also some dodgy shenanigans elsewhere in southern Africa from time to time.

(IMO) There's only one way to be sure you're hunting a truly wild Lion and that's to hunt it in a true wilderness area.

As Brett says, I wasn't suggesting all Lions taken in those areas are ringers, just that it is possible to introduce ringers and I'm sure that it does sometimes happen..... and of course the fact that they're habituated makes them behave differently to a truly wild Lion.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
SI said they have very different behaviour patterns and that one kind was truly wild and the other habituated. That doesn't make one more dangerous than the other or one harder to hunt than the other, it just makes them behave differently to each other.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly wild Lion in South Africa, . . .

(IMO) There's only one way to be sure you're hunting a truly wild Lion and that's to hunt it in a true wilderness area.

I suppose by this reasoning that I often end up hunting "not truly wild" animals as the animals I hunt have been forced to habituate themselves to some level or other of human presence.

The question I have is, how do you know the behavior of the lion you are hunting is truly wild or not? Because the behavior would have to be observed and reported. And the fact the observer is present may cause the lion to act in ways he might not if the observer wasn't present.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
SI said they have very different behaviour patterns and that one kind was truly wild and the other habituated. That doesn't make one more dangerous than the other or one harder to hunt than the other, it just makes them behave differently to each other.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a truly wild Lion in South Africa, . . .

(IMO) There's only one way to be sure you're hunting a truly wild Lion and that's to hunt it in a true wilderness area.

I suppose by this reasoning that I often end up hunting "not truly wild" animals as the animals I hunt have been forced to habituate themselves to some level or other of human presence.

The question I have is, how do you know the behavior of the lion you are hunting is truly wild or not? Because the behavior would have to be observed and reported. And the fact the observer is present may cause the lion to act in ways he might not if the observer wasn't present.

If he jumps through flaming hoops it is tame. If he eats you then it is wild.

Don't be fooled by the mock charges, they usually pull up 4 -8 feet from you.



John (I know nothing)

quote:

Don't be fooled by the mock charges, they usually pull up 4 -8 feet from you.

And if they don't?

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Don't be fooled by the mock charges, they usually pull up 4 -8 feet from you.

I don't believe there's anything I hate more than a tease.

quote:

Originally posted by China Fleet Sailor:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Don't be fooled by the mock charges, they usually pull up 4 -8 feet from you.

I don't believe there's anything I hate more than a tease.

Good form!

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Don't be fooled by the mock charges, they usually pull up 4 -8 feet from you.

And if they don't?

well... then they are wild. good luck

China Fleet Sailor

In the case of other animals, all you have to do to see the difference in behaviour patterns, is to visit a Nat Park and then visit a hunting area and observe the difference in behaviour between the two.

With animals such as Lions the most noticeable differences are discussed (at least in part) in the various articles on the site.

To be honest, I don't particularly have an ethical objection to hunting Lions that have genuinly come out on the park into a hunting area. After all, they're not a stupid animal and to an extent at least, they understand the difference betwen the two types of area, but only to an extent.

my objection is to the shooting of captive bred Lions that have been introduced as ringers. I'm not suggesting that happens all the time, nor that the area owner is always aware of it happening, just that it can happen and does on occasion happen (as Andrew's article says).

The most important point I'm trying to make is that the only way to be 110% sure you're hunting a truly wild lion is to only hunt it in a true wilderness area.

I'll add that the biggest give away of a dodgy Lion is the lack of scarring, or as Andrew quite rightly puts it, the Mickey Mouse effect.

Of course, as PHC once put it, the best way to stop an animal charging is to take it's credit card away!

Steve that bike does pedel backward after all. JMO

DOJ,

You might need to do a bit of re-reading.I haven't backpedalled at all. My argument is that the Lion hunting situation in SA and indeed in some other parts of Southern Africa is murky at best and that the only way to be sure of hunting a truly wild Lion is to hunt it in a true wilderness area...... which is exactly what it says in the articles.

As I've also said before, I consider captive breeding of Lions for shooting and all the possible shennanigans that can entail to be probably the biggest threat to African hunting at this time and if we don't police it ourselves, someone else will end up doing it for us...... and you can bet your life they won't be hunters or even sympathetic to hunting.