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Zim PH Terry Fenn just completed a lion leopard hunt in the Save Valley and e- mailed me a couple of pics he got from the trail cam. They did not connect with this lion or leopard but good a few good pictures of them anyway. Thought I would pass them along.    | ||
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OK boys, how old is that lion? | |||
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I would say about four to five years old, but I am as novice as they come. The only easy day is yesterday! | |||
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Since all the talk started about aging lions i have been paying attetion to the body careteristics of the bigger lions i have seen harvested. It might be the camera angle, but his head just dosent have that huge blocky look. His face dosent look battle scared either. He might be a lover and not a fighter though. Just a guess but i think Pegleg is dead on. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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That lion trailcam must be psychic...date stamped 12/22/10 which is 13 days in the future. Spooky. | |||
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That lion is old enough to be kicked out of the pride but not old enough to have his own pride yet. Depending on the area, population, off-take of males, etc., he could be anywhere from 3 to 7 or 8, but I'd say that 4 is as good a guess as any. | |||
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He's max of 4, obviously not fully mature yet, and should not be shot, period!! | |||
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Clearly not old enough. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I'm no expert, but that was my thought. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Brett - Its the same lion obviously, as the hunt offered in the Save on the HUNTS forum. Damn shame that some have neither the knowledge to know better, or the concern to give a f**k! I sincerely hope this lion is not hunted, but that's not in my control. | |||
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Amen! Here's where we seperate trophy hunters that just want theirs at any price and those that are consrevationist hunters. We'll see........ Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I think this has been covered before, but wouldn't it be better to shoot a young bachelor male instead of a pride male? I would think this would have less impact on the rest of the population. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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JBrown, NO! And don't shoot the dominate pride male either! Shoot an older male lion who has already done his breeding and is out of the pride. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Nope. For starters he could likely be a pride male even if you don't spot females with him. Males regularly go on walk abouts for days at a time. Although he isn't an old lion he may be a pride male who has sired cubs. With older males in a pride with no dependant cubs there's no question. With a loan old male there may be a chance for him being a pride male on a walk about, but at least he's older and chances are he will be replaced by another male anyway. Not so likely with young male like this. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I would bet money that he is not older than 5 and my guess from these 2 pics would be a 4 year old as well. Not a shooter yet. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Between the choices you give above...you are correct...but..."less of an impact" is NOT what we need now. We need to harvesting the NO impact lions...IE: the past pride holders who have been removed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Good Point Lane! However, regardless of the reasons why, impact less or more, etc, etc. He simply is NOT a fully mature lion, period!! Please don't shoot him. | |||
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Does anyone here know the life expectancy of a male who has lost his pride? IWT that their life expectancy can't be long, as being removed as pride male is usually a clear sign that he is well over the hill. And even in their prime males are not the best hunters. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I use to think that was a death sentence, but the more I see the more I think it's a "depends". You could have a realatively healthy, strong, viable 5 or 6 year old male pride holder kicked out by a coallition that might form a coalition that takes another pride, or he might kick out another lone male and take over a pride. Or it could be an old lion that get's kicked out, has trouble hunting and then goes down hill. I'm sure we could think up all kinds of scenerios. I think the big take away is 1. only take mature lions....the older the better and 2. under no circumstances take a male of any age to be a known pride holder with dependant cubs. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Lion..4 years ,3 months , 16 days and born between 6 and 8 PM. I really studied my booklet !! Dave Fulson | |||
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I think you might be surprized about that.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I don't think anyone knows for sure. There have been lions live up to 30 years in captivity. Most people think most wild lions die by age 15. Now the next statement is my opinion and worth nothing. I think a very old pride male would be 8. Most removed from prides by 7. I would imagine that most dethroned males would live to be 10. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Exactly right! Male lions are extreme hunters, and perfectly capable of feeding themselves at all times. How else would you explain how they survive both before and after they are potentially pride males? As Brett mentioned, even pride males are often times away from the pride for up to a week or more at a time. I assure you, they are killing for themselves in the absence of the pride. | |||
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Could not agree more! Lane is smart, most of the time.  | |||
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Nope...I just listen to folks like you and Bwanamich and others with experience. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I agree with Brett here, but what about the outfitter who offers a lion that is obviously too young? | |||
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Castration!!!!  Or how about professional and financial sactions from SCI and APHA???  Seriously though we as hunters have to change demand before supply will respond. So if hunters accept ONLY the taking of mature males and shun the taking of imature males and those that take them outfitters will respond.Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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An 'innocuous' first post of several pics of a "no connection" lion hunt. Bill C set the ball rolling and the post has been transformed into a thread on the the aging of Lions and what and what not to shoot. All postings are agreed upon - let's refrain from shooting the under-6 and pride holders. Question: What is there to stop the breeders from selling under age Lions? - once they have been fed full of hormones (and I'm pretty sure they are)I reckon they could have an MGM mane by the age of 4 and by the looks of it someone is going to be doing some "roaring" business and IMO there is pretty little anyone can do about it either. | |||
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Guys - Here's my opinion. I don't want to paint every PH/Outfitter with the same brush, especially considering the many different circumstances which can happen in the bush. Meaning that, certainly honest mistakes can be made, heat of the moment issues do arrise, and what about the fact that perhaps it could be necessary to shoot a lion in self-defense? In other words, there's plenty of issues that could arrise in which I would hate to see someone demonized for it, especially when we do not know all the facts. This particular case however is different! When you are fortunate enough to have quality trail cam photos of the lion, and can clearly see he's an immature cat. To tarket that lion, and offer a hunt specifically for that lion, is wrong. This goes to what Bwanamich has said many times, and I have commented on as well. Are PH's/Agents out there who are offering this type of thing really that in-experienced, or do they simply not care? Its obviously one or the other, maybe both? | |||
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Aaron - "Way back" I wrote this following a Dec-05 hunt in Masailand. This was obviously a young lion, and as you note above having the trail cam prevented us from possibly making a poor decision in the heat of the moment. Do you agree with the age I listed then of this lion?
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Bill - Yes, I do agree with your age assessment, and a perfect example of a camera as a big help. You can see this lion is already getting some color in his mane, which could be deceiving when looking at the mane hair left at the bait. However, I would be surprised if the hair you found was much over 5"-6" long? Likely not the 8"-9" mane hairs that one wants to see. Regardless though, the color alone could be deceiving, and the cameras can help confirm or deny your original thoughts. Personally, I would NOT shoot this lion. Great pics too, very cool! | |||
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If you look closely at his inner ear and his left iris you wouldn't make such sloopy caculations...he is clearly 4 years, 3mos, 16 days and was born at 11:46am Too young. period Kalahari Lion (Bots 07)  | |||
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Fujotupu (that's a tough one, can I just call you Harry?) - Are you referring to canned hunts, such as those sold in SA? If so, from a conservation standpoint, I guess my response would be "Who cares" if the lion is 4 or 6 or whatever, if he was bred in captivity to be shot. The paying client has already reconciled himself to the fact that he wants a lion trophy at all costs, and I doubt age would matter much as long as the end product (the mount) looks good. Or, are you stating that young captive-bred lions are or will be making their way into "open" hunting concessions? | |||
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Directed more at canned hunts Bill - the farmers/breeders, call them what you like, are going to be having a field day as the age would be immaterial (as I have already stated) - and yes the client who has opted for this kind of hunt has indeed reconciled himself to accepting this "trophy" and isn't really concerned whether the animal is 4 or 14 yrs old. As to the "open" hunting concessions I guess the minimum acceptable age limit would/should still hold true. | |||
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