The actual legislation.
http://www.info.gov.za/view/Do...FileAction?id=146677

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see what all the panic and fuss is about.

As I see it, all they're doing is standardising all the calibre etc requirements for the country instead of allowing each Province to have their own...... and that to me was always bloody stupid. In fact, if I had my way, we'd scrap the individual Provincial Game Depts and have one National one and one National game ordinance and PH licence.

It strikes me that this piece of legislation is fairly straightforward and although there's always going to be some debateable criteria on something like this, I don't see anything that's particularly ridiculous or out of place and let's face it, it's highly unlikely (to say the least) that any bugger is going to pull and weigh a bullet to see if it's legal or not anyway.

The problem I see with this law is that I can legally hunt Elephant with my 9.5X57MS & 300 grain solids at about 1700 fps. Similarly it is legal to hunt leopard with a 6.5 Carcano using 160 gr bullets.

JMTBW

PS. Now I do not have an excuse to buy a 404 Jeffery as my real DG rifle!

There probably isn't too much panic since most of us probably have enough of a selection of guns to meet the requirements.

The fuss would be about:

1. Why legislate something when there is nothing that needs fixing?

2. Yes, it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to pull a bullet to see if it's legal but many of us don't wish to be on the wrong side of the law whether or not we'll get caught.

3. Africa is a destination to which more than a few novice hunters like wives and kids come. It would be better for them to be able to shoot something accurately they won't flinch with than having to use a larger legal cartridge they won't shoot well.

Gentleman,
Please forward all of your valid reasoning to the email address below and address it to Mrs. Carrol. Although the legislation is not the end of the world, there are some minor adjustments that could be made. Please also see an attached email that has already been sent.

tcarrol@environment.gov.za.
www.environment.gov.za

Dear Mrs. Carrol

I must state that I do not agree on some of the standards especially since they are based on bullet construction of at least 10-20 years ago.
Basically I would rather see that a minimum caliber being considered and a minimum amount of energy as the bullets rarely fail in these modern days.

Your standard for using a solid only on buffalo could also cause a lot of problems wounding other buffalo standing behind the one that is shot.
And in all fairness how are you going to employ and enforce these new norms and standards ?

When it comes to minimum caliber and energy levels we have a very good idea what the standards are for each caliber and will have a way to enforce these new norms and standards.

For what is considered now how will you know if a .243 bullet is a 100gr bullet and not with a 85gr bullet in a loaded round ?

There are also a lot of calibers even with the right bullet weight that do not have a lot of energy compared to others for instance a 30-30 shooting a 150gr will have the energy of 2580 Joule/1,903 ft•lbs while a 243 with a 100gr bullet will have the energy of 2800 Joule/2,080 ft•lbs.

But according to the new norm and standards the biggest animal allowed to be shot with a 243 and a 100gr bullet is an nyala ewe with maximum 120kg bodyweight but with the 150gr bullet of the 30-30 you are allowed to shoot a roan antelope with 500kg maximum bodyweight???

So I would really look very hard at how they have setup the minimums in Zimbabwe and in Namibia with minimum energy levels as well as calibers and rather work from there."


Best Regards,
Marius Goosen

Marius

Read it again mate...... softs are allowed to be used on buff.

I appreciate there's always someone going to be dissatisfied in the same way some (often including me) would like to drive at 140 in a 120 speed limit but personally, I don't have any problem with it at all.... and it sure beats the hell out of each Province having a different set of criteria.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
many of us don't wish to be on the wrong side of the law whether or not we'll get caught.

I'd agree with that completely, my point is that I can't see a way the act could ever be realistically enforced. - However, I still prefer it to each Province having their own minimums etc.

Steve,
This was an email sent to the government. It was merely quoted by me and not is my own product. THIS IS AN EMAIL THAT WAS SENT BY SOMEONE ELSE.
I was merely pointing out that people can raise their voice to the appropriate powers that could make a change, since I believe some fine tuning is required.


..adding to that I also dont agree with your view of having single legislation with regards to a Professional Hunters permit being applicable over the entire country. Its fine just the way it is.But that is for you and me to discuss around a campfire with a long cold one in the hand.

Best Regards
Marius Goosen

Marius

My apologies. I only scanned the email and assumed you'd written it....... The beer and campfire sounds good to me.

I reckon the situation where each Province has individual game laws, game depts and PHs is an oddity to say the least but as you say, it'll make a good discussion when we do get to share a few beers.

As for the new act, it seems to be written rather clumsily but that's not really unusual in RSA because English very often isn't the first language of the person who formulates the act...... and it could be worse... it could have been written in umpteen tribal languages!

Maybe this should be placed in the Africa Information thread.

I think that a lot of people have read only half of the legislation and fewer yet have understood it or related the sub sections where they apply.
Personally I think that this legislation is a step in the right direction in standardizing and regulating the hunting industry across the country as opposed to the bureaucratic cluster @#$$ that is currently in place.
I think that the legislation has also made a few gaps where people of smaller stature can now use comfortable calibers to go after bigger game.
I can see where some of the gripes come into it, but generally I am glad to see the first nationwide adjustment take place.

Naki: Not sayin' I'd make it my leopard rifle, but a Carcano with 160-grain bullet at about 2400 is in the same company as the legendary old .256/6.5 Mannlicher that saw so much use in Africa at the end of the Victorian era. With a good modern bullet I'm not sure it would be completely out of place in a leopard blind, but I'll be the first to say I've never hunted them.

quote:

However, I still prefer it to each Province having their own minimums etc.

Steve:

Following your thinking in the USA would lead to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service micromanaging hunting from Washington D.C..

Up here, most hunters feel local regulation is best because it is closest to the problem.

I realize that South Africa is smaller, and has fewer differences between its provinces, but there's a bromide I've found to hold true over the years. It goes like this:

Be careful what you wish for because you might get it ...

Bill Quimby

quote:

my point is that I can't see a way the act could ever be realistically enforced.

There is no way of policing the new law with all its rules of how to kill and not to kill. There is however a bigger problem that confronts us, and that is how motivations are done for obtaining a license. Great emphasis is placed on how we motivate the NEED for having a particular caliber.

The door has just been opened to reject license applications at the Fire Arms Registry who will have to apply this new law. What about licenses that have been issued based on the incorrect motivation and intended application for a specific caliber/bullet weight? Another piece of red tape to act as a stumbling block.

Some questions:

1) If the hunter ignores the law, will the outfitter or farm owner allow you to contravene the law?

2) How will the land owner know the weight of the bullet in loaded ammo?

3) Will hunting permits in future state the caliber and bullet weight to be used?

4) What penalties will be levied and at who's discretion will offenders be charged or arrested?

5) Do we have it now down to a fine art how a ram and a ewe should be killed with different bullet weights?

6) How is culling supposed to be done with this new law in place?

7) Many hunters prefer head-shots only and do it with lighter bullets.

8) With premium grade bullets we can kill with lighter bullets that maintain their weight better.

9) Soft Frangible bullets seem to be the standard in the new law as traditional bullets weights have been attached to calibers. Two SA companies that make light for caliber bullets are Impala Bullets and GSC. To just quote an example iro Impala bullets - they only make one bullet weight for a particular cartridge and the weight is way below the traditional weights, rendering the cartridge either useless or with very limited use.

10) No consultation has take place with the hunting public - our government has simply acted in a unilateral and dictatorial way.

Civil servants will never cease to amaze me with their illusion of control.

Warrior

I think these regulations are largely based on the majority of hunters in SA (ie the local biltong hunter) that will often be buying his box of PMP /denel ammo from the co-op in the typical calibres.

50+ grains 222/223,22-250 for springbok
100 grains 243 for Impala , Blesbuck, warthog etc
130 grains 270/ 7mm Black Wildebeest, Nyala
150 grains 270, 308, 30-06 300 Kudu, gemsbuck etc
175 grains 30-06 300, Eland
250 grains 338, 9.3 , 375 softs or solids for Lion, buff, giraffe
300 grains 375 and 458 solids for Ele and rhino

With the exception of wildcat calibres that are very rare in SA, these numbers look reasonable to me. Handguns may be a different story

Let us just look at one particular cartridge in the light of the new legislation:

It says with a 243 Win and a 100 grain bullet we can shoot the following

a) Springbuck (biggest specie with a 50 gr bullet brought forward)

b) Impala

c) Warthog

d) Blesbuck

e) Reedbuck

F) Nyala ewe

Interestingly enough one cannot shoot a Nyala Ram.
Typical Solids lighter than 100 grains is supposedly not allowed.
Barnes-X makes 75/85 & 95 gr bullets and thus may not be used even though they retain more weight than any frangible Soft would.

The next category jumps 130 grain bullets ( so the 120 grain bullets of the 25-06 Rem cannot shoot the following animals):

a) Species contemplated in the previous category

b) Black wildebeest

c) Tsessebe

d) Hartebeest

e) Nyala Bulls

Again here we find that one with a 270 Win using 130 grain bullets is not allwed to shoot:

Blue Wildebeest, but only Black Wildebeest
Kudu
Gemsbok

Interestingly enough, once again, we can see that that 120 to 130 grain monolithic bullets are not allowed on the 3 species above - some such examples are Impala bullets, Hornady GMX bullets, KJG bullets & GSC bullets.

Clearly we can see how one is being limited by these impractical & theoretical limits (or just plain silly).
If these categories were meant to be suggestions it can still go, but LAW, that is far fetching.

Look at these GMX bullets just recently released:

http://www.hornady.com/store/GMX

Warrior

I contacted Thea Carrol, who is responsible for this project at the Department and voiced my concern about the ability of those whose suggestions were included in this document. She asked that I put my comments on paper and submit it to her.

The Norms and Standards include hunting with rifles, handguns, bows and falconry. The comments below only cover rifle and handgun hunting as that is where my area of expertise is.

Please have a look at my comments and ferret out any mistakes I made. I will submit these comments, tempered by your suggestions, by Wednesday 29 June 2011.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:

1. These norms and standards are unrealistic and may be implemented but cannot be enforced/policed.
2. These standards open the door to irresponsible hunting such as has never been seen before. Calibers that are inadequate or barely adequate are allowed and calibers that are far more capable of doing the work are excluded. See the comments about minimum rifle and handgun bullet weights below.
3. The object of the ethical hunting of any species is to kill the animal as fast as possible. This requires two steps: Correct shot placement and sufficient depth and volume of wound channel to disrupt vital organs in the game.
4. The caliber and bullet used cannot be defined by one or two simple factors such as bullet weight, kinetic energy or momentum alone.
5. Similarly, optimal game weight tables and various knock out indices are all based on simplistic calculations and grandpa’s gut feeling.
6. Terminal bullet performance is a complex subject that is made up from a number of factors.
7. Some of these factors are: 1. Bullet construction. 2. Momentum and cross section. 3. Stability. 4. Angle of attack.
8. I suggest that verbal submissions be taken on these norms and standards and that the opinion of modern bullet manufacturers, who are at the leading edge of technology, be taken into account.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
CHAPTER2
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR HUNTING METHODS
Minimum bullet weights for rifle hunting
4. (1) The minimum bullet weights for rifle hunting for the respective categories of wild and alien
animals are the following-
(a) 2.3 g. (35 gr.) bullet for hunting-
(i) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax and all rodents; and
(ii) feathered game;
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow cartridges such as:
22 LR (40gr at 1080fps)
22 Hornet. (45gr at 2650fps)

This will exclude cartridges such as:
177 Remington (20gr at 4250fps)
204 Ruger (32gr at 4225fps)
22 Hornet (33gr at 2900fps)
------------------------------------------------------------------
(b) 3.3 g. (50gr.) bullet for hunting-
(i) furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub-paragraph (1)(a)(i), up to and including the size of springbok; and
(ii) mountain reedbuck;
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow cartridges such as:
22 Winchester Magnum rimfire loaded with Federal #757 ammunition (50gr at 1650fps)
221 Remington Fireball (50gr at 2860fps)
222 Remington (50gr at 3140fps)
223 Remington (50gr at 3300)
22 Savage High Power (71gr at 2790fps).

It will exclude cartridges such as:
220 Swift loaded with Hornady or Federal factory ammunition (40gr at 4200fps)
22-250 Remington loaded with Hornady, Federal and Winchester factory ammunition (40gr at 4100fps)
224 Weatherby Magnum (40gr at 3900fps)
223 Winchester SSM (40gr at 4000fps)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(c) 6.6 g. (100gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub-
paragraphs (1)(b}(i) and (1)(b)(ii), up to and Including the size of impala, warthog, blesbuck,
common reedbuck and nyala ewes;
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow cartridges such as:
6x45 (100gr at 2400fps)
25 Remington (117gr at 2230fps)
250 Savage (100gr at 2820fps)
25 Remington (100gr at 2350fps)

This will exclude cartridges such as:
6mm Musgrave (90gr at 2900fps)
243 Winchester (95gr at 3250fps)
243 WSSM (90gr at 3300fps)
240 Weatherby Magnum (95gr at 3350fps)
25-06 Remington (85gr at 3500fps)
257 Weatherby Magnum (90gr at 3700fps)
260 Remington (95gr at 3350fps)
264 Winchester Magnum (95gr at 3650fps)
6.5 – 284 Norma (95gr at 3500fps)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(d) 8.4 g. (130gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub-
paragraph (1)(c), up to and including the size of black wildebeest. tsessebe, nyala bulls and
hartebeest;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow calibers such as:
6.5 x 55 Swedish (130gr at 2500fps)
6.5 x 54 Mannlicher Schoenauer (140gr at 2400fps)
260Remington (130gr at 2600fps)

This will exclude calibers such as:
25-06 Remington (125gr at 3000fps)
257 Weatherby Magnum (125gr at 3150fps)
264 Winchester Magnum (125gr at 3150fps)
270 Winchester (120gr at 3100fps)
7-08 (120gr at 2900fps)
7x57 (120gr at 2950fps)
7x64 (120gr at 3050fps)
7mm Remington Magnum (125gr at 3400fps)
7mm WSM (120gr at 3400fps)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(e) 9.9 g. (150gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger_ than the species contemplated in sub-
paragraph (1 )(d), up to and including the size of blue wildebeest, kudu, gemsbuck, sable, roan and
leopard;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow calibers such as:
7-30 Waters (154gr at 2300fps)
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser (156gr at 2400fps)
6.5x57 (156gr at 2450fps)
260 Remington (160gr at 2500fps)
300 Savage (150gr at 2600fps)
30-30 Winchester (150gr at 2400fps)
303 British (150gr at 2700fps)
7x57 and 7-08 (150gr at 2800fps)

This will exclude calibers such as:
6.5x68 (140gr at 3000fps)
264 Winchester Magnum (140gr at 3150fps)
270 Winchester (140gr at 3050fps)
30-06 (140gr at 3100fps)
270 Weatherby Magnum (140gr at 3350fps)
7mm Remington Magnum (140gr at 3400fps)
300 Winchester Magnum (140gr at 3300fps)
300 Remington Ultra Magnum (140gr at 3450fps)
30-378 Weatherby Magnum (140gr at 3750fps)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(f) 11 g. (175gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub-paragraph
(1)(e), up to and Including eland, but excluding lion and buffalo;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow calibers such as:
30-30 Winchester (180gr at 2200fps)
300 Savage (180gr at 2300fps)
8x57 (180gr at 2300fps)
7x57 (175gr at 2500fps)
303 British (180gr at 2600fps)
308 Winchester (180gr at 2700fps)

This will exclude calibers such as:
7mm Remington Magnum (160gr at 3100fps)
8x68 RWS (170gr at 3100fps)
7.21 Firebird (160gr at 3500fps)
300 Winchester Magnum (168gr at 3250fps)
8mm Remington Magnum (170gr at 3350fps)
30-378 Weatherby (168gr at 3500fps)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(g) 16.2 g. (250gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub-
paragraph (1)(n. up to and including lion, buffalo and giraffe; and
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow calibers such as:
358 Winchester (250gr at 2300fps)
9.3x57 (255gr at 2250fps)
338 Sabi (250gr at 2500fps)
35 Whelen (250gr at 2500fps)

This will exclude calibers such as:
338 Winchester Magnum (225gr at 2900fps)
340 Weatherby Magnum (225gr at 3000fps)
338 Lapua Magnum (225gr at 3050fps)
358 Norma Magnum (225 at 3000fps)
376 Steyr (225gr at 2900fps)
375 H&H Magnum (230gr at 3000fps)
378 Weatherby Magnum (235gr at 3200fps)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(h) 19.5 g. (300gr.) bullet for hunting furred game larger than the species contemplated in sub-paragraph {1)(g), including thick-skinned animals, but excluding buffalo.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
This will allow calibers such as:
35 Whelen (300gr at 2200fps)
9.3x62 (300gr at 2250fps)
444 Marlin (300gr at 2100fps)
45-70 (300gr at 2250fps)

This will exclude calibers such as:
9.3x62 (286gr at 2450fps)
9.3x64 (286gr at 2700fps)
9.3x66 Sako (270gr at 2600fps)
376 Steyr (270gr at 2600fps)
375H&H Magnum (286gr at 2600fps)
378 Weatherby Magnum (285gr at 2950fps)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) When hunting thick-skinned animals the bullet must be of full metal jacket or monolithic
solid construction.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
The foremost experts on dangerous game (thick skinned) in the world agree that modern expanding bullets (unlike the poor examples of expanding bullets from 50 to 100 years ago) are preferable over solids in many situations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Minimum bullet weights and barrel length for handgun hunting
5. {1) The minimum bullet weights for handgun hunting for the respective categories of wild and
alien animals are the following-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment:
The norms and standards on hunting with handguns is similarly absurd. The law allows the hunting of elephant with a 45 Long Colt revolver (300gr cast lead at 800fps) or a Colt 45ACP (If handloaded with a 300gr bullets at 700fps). However, given the rifle laws, elephant cannot be hunted with a 270gr FN copper solid (arguably the best bullet style on the planet for this purpose) loaded in a 375H&H Magnum rifle (270gr at 2900fps).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Make it simple: from now on, all game must be shot with the .375; nothing smaller, nothing larger.

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
Make it simple: from now on, all game must be shot with the .375; nothing smaller, nothing larger.

Yep, 300 grain solids and softs.

My internet connection is still too slow to download the document but can someone tell me if it addresses the issue of shotguns for birds please? ..... and if it doesn't, does it mean they can be still be used or not?

Frankly, I wouldn't put anything past bloody politicians and civil servants and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it turned out they'd simply forgotten to address the issue and that by thoughtless omission, they'd put the entire wingshooting industry out of business!

In the limited time I was able to view the document (whilst talking to Scriptus on the blower) I thought we'd found a doublespeak piece in there somewhere that meant expanding bullets could be used on buffalo (as they quite rightly should!).

Also, does it address the issue of expanding solids such as the X and the new Woodleigh that looks like an inverted beer can?

Wingshooting has become a lot more difficult.

In the final section of the Norms and Standards, game birds are defined. No reference is given there about what must be used to shoot them with, so one must presume that the only other reference to feathered game applies.

quote:

CHAPTER2
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR HUNTING METHODS
Minimum bullet weights for rifle hunting
4. (1) The minimum bullet weights for rifle hunting for the respective categories of wild and alien
animals are the following-
(a) 2.3 g. (35 gr.) bullet for hunting-
(i) furred game up to and including the size of a rock hyrax and all rodents; and
(ii) feathered game;

So, it looks like you have to shoot birds with a rifle (in the definitions a shotgun qualifies as a rifle) and you may not use a bullet lighter than 35gr. That is some pretty coarse shot, if every pellet bullet must weigh at least 35gr. Incidentally, ostriches are no longer birds and buffalo must be shot with a solid. No telling solid what though. Remember that all solids expand, no matter what they are made of.

Karibu Afrika!

The really funny / stupid thing is that this mob churn out laws by the bloody bucket-full, but they do not have the capacity or integrity to enforce anything. As an aside, most times if folk by some extreme misfortune, are nailed for speeding, a bank-note left in an ID document together with the driver's licence and you do not even have to even turn your engine off. Who is going to enforce this lot. I can just see the cops at ports of entry, checking in firearms and sitting with their kinetic hammers and scales checking bullet masses? Over the last few days, I have spoken to a number of local hunters, some who have hunted more than thirty-five years. They have NEVER, EVER been stopped at a road-block by a DEAT Officer and been checked. Some have long given-up purchasing Provincial hunting licences.

And every time they change something, they stuff it up even more...... the amendments to the amendments of the Immigration act is a wonderful example of that....... once introduced, any conveyance with plans to enter RSA must communicate full details of everyone on board to the RSA home affairs dept before they leave their point of departure.

It'll work great for a 747 coming from London but not so great for a taxi from Harare or a donkey cart from Mozambique.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
And every time they change something, they stuff it up even more...... the amendments to the amendments of the Immigration act is a wonderful example of that....... once introduced, any conveyance with plans to enter RSA must communicate full details of everyone on board to the RSA home affairs dept before they leave their point of departure.

It'll work great for a 747 coming from London but not so great for a taxi from Harare or a donkey cart from Mozambique.

They don't have a problem with that lot, brothers and all that. It is the pale mob they are trying to sort out.

Yup.