I think that I'm about to really open a general can of worms.

In so many discussions on this forum, and others, on the quality of products and services the feeling that: †In life you generally get what you pay for.â€, is very often expressed. The typical saying goes: Pay peanuts, and you only get monkeys to work for you. Pay top wages, and you get top staff ! Buy a cheap telescope, and you can expect trouble at some time sooner or later. This seems to be well accepted. OK? So what about the other side of the coin?

One gets the feeling that a typical hunter would therefore be well satisfied to also pay for what he gets? For example: You go on a guided hunt and get a so-so trophy, you would be most unhappy to pay top $’s for a mediocre trophy? Alternatively: You go on a guided hunt and you bag a real monster record-book trophy , why should you now be unhappy to pay real top $’s for your brag-object?

All outfitters and clients are invited to air a few views on the following proposal, intended to keep everyone more or less happy.

As I work in Africa, where the trophy recording according the late Mr. Roland Ward is generally used, I will use his “qualification measurement†as guideline. If you study the proposal you will soon see that the SCI, or any other method of classifying what is regarded as a “real trophyâ€, will work equally well.

I will try to be practical and describe trophy quality as being in one of five categories:
1. Inferior – not really a representative specimen.
2. Representative of the species.
3. Almost Roland Ward.
4. Qualify for Roland Ward.
5. A real monster, well over the minimum for Roland Ward.

Now, the real die-hard trophy hunters will say: there are only two types: Qualifiers and non-qualifiers. This is quite true, but in view of trying to keep everyone more or less happy, I’ve started this discussion with the five listed categories. If you so wish, make your own preferred number and name of classes.

Your opinion is now asked on two fronts about trophy hunting, and paying for the trophy. But in order to take the requirement of having to have vast African hunting experience out of the equation of how valuable your opinion can be considered as, we will remain in Africa, but hunt the mythical Southern African Greater Unicorn [SAGU]. The Roland Ward minimum qualifying measurement for SAGU is 100 mlu [mythical length units]. [This happens to also be the SCI minimum, but measured in imlu – the imperial version of mlu]

A carefully conducted independent search of all published prices reveal that the average price of all the outfitters who offer trophy hunting for the SAGU is [You should not be surprised! ] exactly UC$ 100, or, if you wish 100.00 of an Unspecified Country’s $s.

Now many hunters hunt SAGU every year, some pay a bit less that U$100, some pay a bit more that U$100, but on average they pay the U$ 100 price. Of these hunters a few very unlucky individuals shoot tiny youngsters that can by no means be regarded as real trophies. Whatever they pay, they will be unhappy about paying that sum. They may be prepared to pay a little bit for the experience of actually bagging a real life SAGU, but to expect them to pay the nearly, or even over, U$100 that they do? No that’s not on! SOme outfitter is making a killing and the hunter is unhappy ! Some get progressively better specimens, and are progressively less unhappy about paying whatever they do. Only a few get SAGU’s that measure op to the ultimate 100 mlu mark to qualify for inclusion into the record book list of the next to be published Roland Ward handbook. These are the lucky few: They got what they paid for ! We all expect that only very few very lucky individuals will get trophies that can really be described as awesome or too good to be true(?) monsters. Once the SAGU is on the ground and measured here we have the unhappy hunting outfitters mumbling to themselves: Heck, man for this one I could have charged much more!

Now let us hear some opinions about how many mlu should a trophy measure to be classified into my class two – representative. And now that you’ve ventured a size, how many U$’s would you be prepared to pay for such a “representative†SAGU? How big should a trophy be, in mlu’s to be able to truly say that it “almost made Roland Wardâ€, and what are you prepared to pay for such a specimen?

The next obvious question about the cost of a just qualify for and a “little bit over†Roland Ward is not asked at all!

But the big question is: If you shoot a trophy that is x% bigger than Roland Ward's minimum of 100 mlu's, what would you feel is a reasonable cost for such a monster? In other words, give us your value of x, and your feeling of how much, in U$’s, could your hunting outfitter reasonably ask you to pay?

If you are really clever you would devise a little spreadsheet and play around with the values. Ideally you should also venture a guess of how many, from a total of the one hundred SAGU’s shot each year fall into each category. If you are really very clever you will work things around a bit so that the average price of all the 100 SAGUs hunted in this particular year remain U$100! This will make applying your words of wisdom to any animal in any continent and for any measurement system in any units of length or mass in any currency very easy.

Shoot me down if you so wish, but let’s have some opinions.

Reminds me of why I've never had anything scored. As long as we had fun, enjoyed the hunt and the PH's company, I don't give a DAMN what it scores.

Vaughan Fulton, my wife and I where standing on a young mountain in Namibia just after I had shot my Kudu. Vaughan looks at me and says "that’s one very nice Kudu, it'll make the book easy". I looked at Vaughan and said " one day when I'm old and setting in a rocking chair I'll look back on this day and remember our stalk, climbing this mountain, my shot, the three of us setting here, just glad to be here enjoying this fine kudu and each others company. I'll remember that long after I give a damn what it scores or even care".

I terms of rifles, oprtics, and related equipment, I really do believe that you get what you pay for.

I terms of HUNTING TRIPS, I also believe that you get what you pay for. For a given African country, most of the top outfitters -- those with great reputations -- are very similarly priced anyway. For example, you'll spend about the same money to hunt the same animals for the same number of days in Zimbabwe no matter if you hunt with Roger Whittle or Russ Broom.

In terms of trophy quality, I don't expect anything. I expect a good HUNTING TRIP for which I have paid and am willing to further pay (in the form of trophy fees & tips) more good money. I haven't purchased a SHOPPING TRIP, but a HUNTING TRIP. I expect good and reasonable opportunities at a fair selection of trophy animals, but I DO NOT expect or demand specific trophy animals. I DO NOT expect or demand that they all be of SCI 'Gold' quality or else I'm, I'm, I'm , I'm..........going to fly into a tizzy.

And you know what? Because I'm relaxed about the whole show, I end up taking great trophies. It's funny how hunting works out that way. All I want is an opportunity to hunt, and I'll hunt hard, stay out all day, glass hard, shoot to the best of my ability, laugh, joke, be of good cheer, and take the task at hand seriously. But I don't expect anything but the PH's best effort and a reasonable opportunity. No trophy demands past that point. I've come home without some animals that I've wanted, but I get over that part very quickly and am ready for the next opportunity on the next safari. Life is life!

I developed this attitude because I'm farm-raised and have hunted for most of my career on my own out west for mule deer, bear, elk and pronghorn, so I'm used to bedding down on hard ground, used to disappointment, used to getting dumped out of the saddle, and I know beyond any shadow of any doubt that a good and grateful attitude is of paramount importance in every endeavor.

I feel strongly about this subject because I've been in many hunting camps with great clients who I've enjoyed and have learned a lot from. I've also been in camps that hosted gold-plated, spoiled, pantywaist-type clients who worshipped the record book, and if everything didn't make SCI Gold, or they didn't score on EVERYTHING that want to get on that safari or at least out of that camp, they'd go into a pouting, miserable fit. I'd like to have administered some western-style, frontier discipline to some of these crybabies, but that sort of thing is obviously out of the question. Nevertheless, such types make me sick, and have served as a model of how NOT to act on safari.

But beyond all that, hunting should be treated as HUNTING, not a shopping experience. All trophies fees should remain the same for all trophies taken. That's not only true to the spirit of what we're all about, but it's also fair to all clients. Everyone who fronts their money gets the same shot at great animals.

If trophy-getting ends up turning into some kind of bidding war in RSA or anywhere else, I'm out. I won't play that game. There's too much chance for dirty-dealing and discrimination........

AD

I am totally opposed to a "sliding" trophy fee based on the animals score. I see them popping up more, and more, especially in RSA.

A sliding trophy fee encourages put and take hunting, which unfortunately is what the RSA has become famous for. An outfitter offering fair chase hunting should avoid a sliding fee or he will be seen as falling into the "put and take" category.

I have bow-killed several whitetails that would have easily made the "book". I will never enter any animal that I have taken, and I feel that doing so gives the anti's more ammunition to condem us. Hunting is not a contest, and we should not use the size of our game to give us bragging rights....it's much too sacreed for that!

The day I am told I have to pay for a trophy on a sliding scale the day I stop hunting!

This is one reason I will NEVER hunt in Europe, or any other place where they use this practice.

Unfortunately, this is the direction I see things headed most everywhere. The only way to bypass this is to hunt places where a guide isnt required. If I do that it limits greatly where and what I can hunt.

This reads like a mythical example of much of the elk hunting I see advertized - "Watch the video, pick out the one you want, write the check for it, then we will go out & get him for you"

Not really my cup of tea

Mike

The logical conclusion of this type of pay for what you get is a system whereby the client is given a scrapbook of pictures of the available trophies. After making his choice the "hunter" is than taken by the "guide" to the "trophy" which he then can kill. I've actually seen such a system advertised by a few "game farms" in the US, primarily for White tail Deer.
I'm not interested.
Give me a well managed camp, a good guide who is also a good companion, and an opportunity to find the game that I'm hunting for. If lady luck smiles upon me - fine, if not, I'll still enjoy the hunt.

I offer animals in three classes, the reason is to give hunters a choice in what they want to hunt. All the animals on our farm are born on the farm, we do not buy in animals. If a client sees a trophy that he feels good about he takes it if he doesn't like it he let it go. I go futher, if a client wants to only take representative animals and I point out a bigger animal he still pays for a representative animal.

Pricing according to a sliding scale does not always mean "put and take" as it is unethical in my eyes. I had a lot of compliments from hunters because I am prepared to offer cheaper animals for hunters who are more intrested in the hunt than in the trophy. For me there are more memories in the hunt than in the trophy. I see myself as a hunter not a trophy collector. With that said it is also true that the throphy help keeping the experience alive and help you to relive the hunt every time you look at it

quote:

Shoot me down if you so wish, but let’s have some opinions.

Consider yourself shot down. This is exactly the greed in the hunting industry that fuels the fire of "trophy hunters" i.e.: put & take, canned hunting, etc... Management hunting of a property will produce better trophies and an owner/operator has the right to charge a premium for his efforts. HOWEVER, as soon as he starts "sliding his scale" - I begin to wonder just to what extent he's going to ensure he has plenty of "Supply" for his "demand"ing hunters.

IMO - it's a discredit to the operation.

Try to book a whitetail hunt in TX and you'll see this same philosophy rampant. I suspect this is based on the size of the operation. Small operation = less capacity = fewer hunters = have to charge more to make more = have to create your own supply.

Regardless of the abundance or lack of personal funds for hunting, I 100% will not hunt with this type of operation, and if the entire industry goes this way, I will give up hunting entirely and punch paper and cans before I pay to support this philosophy of "hunting." (term used loosely)

While on the subject, this is one of many reasons I will not hunt in RSA. For my money, the YO ranch (high-fenced, game-breeding operation) is closer, comparable and has most of if not all of the same plains game. I'm not picking on RSA hunters - it's just not for me. If i'm going to shoot a "raised animal" in a high fenced environment - I'll do it at a game ranch 4-hours from home, not 24.

For that matter, there are no less than 10 "game sales" annually in TX.

I'd reccomend to the hunter that wants to have the biggest whatever, that he just go to a sale, BUY a Kudu - for example, then put it on his property and raise it like a hog. When he's fed it enough, and it gets old enough to have 90" horns - he can shoot it!

At least he'd have the enjoyment of "raising" it himself rather than letting someone else do it for him!

Sliding scale trophy prices are cr*p! BS! They will drive off the already too few hunters that can scrape together enough to get to hunt in Africa.

Only the richest will eventually be able to hunt the biggest or best. But then, is that hunting at all? Isn't that really shopping?

Or, is this a means for the outfitter to draw you in with one price and then switch you to a decent, higher priced, trophy when you realize that what he sold you were culls and family pets!

Today we pay the fees up front [in a package deal] and should expect to be offered the opportunity to shoot the best animal we find. If it's the best one on the ranch, so be it, if it's one that looks good to you and is your "Trophy" then that is good too.

You go out hunting, and shoot what you find [or not - your choice].

Lest anyone misunderstand...I'll not hunt anywhere with a sliding scale!!!

Les

quote:

Originally posted by LHowell:
Sliding scale trophy prices are cr*p! BS! They will drive off the already too few hunters that can scrape together enough to get to hunt in Africa.

Only the richest will eventually be able to hunt the biggest or best. But then, is that hunting at all? Isn't that really shopping?

Or, is this a means for the outfitter to draw you in with one price and then switch you to a decent, higher priced, trophy when you realize that what he sold you were culls and family pets!

Today we pay the fees up front [in a package deal] and should expect to be offered the opportunity to shoot the best animal we find. If it's the best one on the ranch, so be it, if it's one that looks good to you and is your "Trophy" then that is good too.

You go out hunting, and shoot what you find [or not - your choice].

Lest anyone misunderstand...I'll not hunt anywhere with a sliding scale!!!

Les

No way am I paying on a sliding scale. When I see a brochure or a wb site, the first thing I look at is the trophy fees, if it's sliding< I am done reading and in the trash heap or on to another site.

Green ear tags are $1,000
Yellow ear tags are $2,500
Red ear tags are $5,000
Purple ear tags the price is negotiable.

No, thank you.

My opinion, FWIW....

First thing to establish...for me its "fair chase or no chase". When I am hunting, it has to be hunting. I have no qualms killing my own food out of a field, but not under the pretense of hunting.

So, with that in mind, if I am interested in hunting for a trophy quality specimen of a species, I will hunt/book a hunt in an area where they are historically found and will engage the services of an outfitter with a good reputation amongst past clientele.

When I am on the hunt, I am paying for a guiding service and a comfortable camp, not for an animal. To my way of thinking, the trophy fees are a royalty to the government that owns the game and nothing more.

If the service is 5 star, I expect to pay accordingly. If I am willing to live with 2 or 3 star service, then I should pay less.

The taking of animals has little to do with it. If the area has little or no trophy quality game, then shame on me for hunting/booking a hunt there (provided that the guide/outfitting service worked/hunted hard for me, of course).

If I am unfortunate and strike out in a good area, but the staff worked their hardest and the guide was a good hunter and tried his or her hardest, I don't expect to pay less.

If the next time I happen to get lucky and tag a whopper, and everyone worked hard to make it happen, I don't expect to pay more.

The only time I would expect to pay less is if I paid for 5 star service and got 3 star service.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

No way am I paying on a sliding scale.

Ditto.

I recently received a brochure from a Danish hunting agency (Diana) , and noticed that almost all the the European and Asian hunts they had were of the "sliding trophy fee" type. Thus, I quickly lost interest, and just flipped thru it to look at the pictures...

this is kind of like the old sears good, better and best. When I am buying good or best, it's the outfitter, PH , area, etc. A trophy is so much more than just size in a book. It a guy works to get a trophy, it is his best, not just by size, and he should not be penalized because it may score high in a book of egos. No way no how.

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:
I recently received a brochure from a Danish hunting agency (Diana), and noticed that almost all the the European and Asian hunts they had were of the "sliding trophy fee" type. Thus, I quickly lost interest, and just flipped thru it to look at the pictures...

And nice pictures too...

The sliding scale has been common in Europe for as long as I check hunt prices. I've hunted under these scales, but I've never found that it restricted my actions in the field. When you have been hunting hard after a rutting stag for a week, and you finally get a chance, you don't go counting the points, assessing the weight or what have you. At least I didn't. I got lucky.
I had to pay a surcharge of $60 to cover the few hundred grams that the trophy was heavier than the pre-paid 5 kg.

Once we came across a huge stag that was limping. I was unarmed as we were dragging out a deer that was shot earlier that morning. It was a good thing. That stag was big, and I would have shot it without blinking. And ending up begging at the bank.

In the roe deer area we hunted, the big trophies had long been shot out, or were never there to begin with, so it was safe to pull the trigger without worrying about having to sell the wife's car. Trophy size never mattered, just the fun of being out there.

I like the idea of the luck of the hunt. Sometime you get a big one, something you get a smaller one. I won't whine when he's small, and I'd hope not to get charged extra when he's big.

Frans

quote:

I like the idea of the luck of the hunt. Sometime you get a big one, something you get a smaller one. I won't whine when he's small, and I'd hope not to get charged extra when he's big.

Frans

That's exactly why I don't like the sliding scale thing. While out hunting, I want to enjoy the hunt. Without the possibility of a thought in the back of my mind of "Gosh, I'd better be careful so I don't shoot anything too big, and go bankrupt!". And this is of course also dependant on the guide. Is he good enough to accuratly judge the "trophy"? I've heard stories of hunters who ended up paying quite a lot more than they had planned, due to guides telling them to shoot an animal that turned out to be bigger then they thought it was.

Not all sliding scales are excessivly expensive of course, but some are just plain crazy, and the differance can amount to several thousand dollars.

I'd rather know beforehand what animal X is going to cost me regardless of trophy size.

Lots of sliding scale hunting here in Texas from whitetail and exotics. I pass their brochures to my co-workers who end up tossing them in the trash after looking at the photos.

I find sliding scales here also go along with auctioned or pen raised animals, which to me is as exciting as shooting a meat cow. YMMV

I tip based on service provided always will if the PH or Outfitter "needs" the cash raise the prices and I can decide if I "need" to hunt with them.

I hunts should be priced so that a tip is not needed to survive but is instead an actual bonus.

I think an animal should be one price, regardless of what it scores. Although I don't like charging by size as it may cause you to not find an animal in your range, I think it is better than when people say they have a 30" this or a 40" that. If the people know how big the animal is, is that animal really wild? I do think, that if the guide says, that animal is 29" and it turns out to be 31", only the 29" fee should be applicable as many people might not have shot it if it was the 30"+ fee (if that makes sense to you guys).

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:
I do think, that if the guide says, that animal is 29" and it turns out to be 31", only the 29" fee should be applicable as many people might not have shot it if it was the 30"+ fee (if that makes sense to you guys).

This is excactly my point. I offer animals in ranges. The client knows what the prices are. My trophy fees are very much in line with the fees ussually charged. If the client wants to hunt a smaller animal and the ph judge the trophy incorrectly the client pays the lower price. For me it is not to charge more for the big trophies, but to charge less for the smaller trophies. The skills required to hunt a 4 year old animal and a 6 year old animal is the same. When you stalked an animal the client must have the choice to take the animal or not, if the client is not prepared to take that specific animal, it is his choice.

On game farms that are managed as self contained ecological systems you will get animals in different age groups and age plays a big role in trophy size. I am totally against a guarentee of a specific trophy size, that means the animal was bought and kept aside for a specific hunter. The luck element must still be there, as previosly stated it is all about the hunt for me.

I’ve been accused of being long-winded before. Justifiably so. I risk being accused of the same offence again, but I will try to weave a little very true story into my reply to your postings, all of which I’m very grateful for.

In my posting about what to pay for certain classes of SAGU, I never advocated it! I merely stated a fictional case and asked for comments or views. The reason(s) why I made the posting in the first place will become clear as you read on.

Mark65x55 said in his posting: “Reminds me of why I've never had anything scored. As long as we had fun, enjoyed the hunt and the PH's company, I don't give a DAMN what it scores.â€

I really like this attitude. If all hunters had this, or even a similar, attitude the “demand†for superior trophies would not be so great! And then the requirement for a hunting outfitter to think about how to “preserve†the real big trophies for people who really appreciate [or worship the fact that they’re big] them would not be there.

allen day posted some very nice words, amongst then: “…….. gold-plated, spoiled, pantywaist-type clients…… I'd like to have administered some western-style, frontier discipline to some of these crybabies, but that sort of thing is obviously out of the question.…. such types make me sick, and have served as a model of how NOT to act on safari.â€

The whole of your post reminds me of why I got back into full-time professional hunting, i.e. the wonderful people you meet sometimes. You said everything very well, and I applaud you! The reason for my wanting to have views on paying on a sliding scale is in part because sometimes, despite my best efforts to avoid it, I as a hunting outfitter find that I’m in the unfortunate position of having landed a certain type of client who desperately needs the application of a good measure of some good old fashioned South African farmer-style disciplining properly dished out to the “…pantsywaist-type clients….†I, like Allen, also realize that such behavior “…. is obviously out of the question.†So, if I’m to be stuck with such a misfit of an excuse for a real hunter, is it possible to at least make it financially worth my while by making him/them pay, and pay dearly, for the record book entries that he/they so “worshipâ€, and get them into the state that Allen so nicely describes.

Mikeh416Rigby contributed his view as: “ I am totally opposed to a "sliding" trophy fee based on the animals score. I see them popping up more, and more, especially in RSA.â€

I take note of your view, but at this point in time I prefer to remain a cautious scientist and will not make any judgment for or against a sliding trophy scale until I’ve thought about it very carefully. To make a good judgment one needs to know all the facts, including the fact of how one, actually the most important, party, of those involved, i.e. the hunters feel, hence my posting. I quite agree with you that sliding scale prices are “popping up more, and more, especially in RSA.â€

All of 500grains, Wolfgar, Saeed, Mike Smith, ibexeb and, TerryR posted valued comments, which collectively adds to the other postings, all of which seems to say: “No to any sliding scale payment for trophy hunting. Yet, despite our opposition to it, we see it has happened in Europe, and it seems to be spreading to Africa through South Africa!â€

Now I’m not speaking for anywhere else that in South Africa, so please don’t post about hunting in glorious Other Country! Here where I’ve been in this business a bit of time, game belongs to hunting concession owners and can be sold on a free-market principle to anyone, including hunting outfitters, like myself. My experience with a sliding scale comes from negotiating with hunting concession owners on the season’s trophy prices. If I as a hunting outfitter in my negotiating with the concession owner hear that I have to pay for any trophy hunted by my clients on a sliding scale there are really just one of two things that I can do if I do not want to use a sliding trophy cost scale myself: (i) Choose to not take any of my hunting clients to that particular concession. (ii)Accept the sliding scale and limit my mark-up on the highest price that I have to pay for the top trophy, and fix my trophy price at that. This means a few things: I probably price myself out of a substantial portion of the hunting client market. It also means that if a client gets very lucky and shoots a real monster on that concession, I make very limited profit, as I intentionally kept my profit margin low to remain at least somehow in competition. That’s OK by me making a low profit on a very happy client, he is after all a very happy client who is going to recommend me very highly! The client should also be quite happy? But at a fixed trophy price I make a quite handsome profit if the client just shoots a reasonable trophy for which I pay quite a bit less on the sliding scale. That’s also OK by me! Quite possibly also this client will be happy with his reasonable trophy at a not altogether unreasonable price? If, however, despite the best efforts of my best professional hunter to get a client a decent trophy, near the end of the hunt the hard hunting eager to obey and good to have around perfect client just did not get a good opportunity on a very nice trophy, he decides that a just so-so animal he sees on the last day will do, and he collects it. Now I make a whopping profit on, let’s call it an inferior trophy! Now that’s is not OK by me! I feel guilty of ripping off the poor guy! He got a just representative trophy, and I cream it! Doesn’t sound fair to me? The client cannot be happy! He knows that he hunted hard, glassed hard, did his best, appreciated all the PH’s efforts and still did not really score a decent trophy. I can accept that as just his bad luck. That’s life for you: Some get good trophies. Some get just representative trophies. But what I cannot accept that I make the most profit from his bad luck. Do you not think that even the most dedicated professional hunter who is also a hunting outfitter or somehow shares in the profit, will not be tempted to tactfully “suggest†to a client to shoot the first representative trophy that they see? Of course he will be tempted, he is after all only human, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to maximize one’s profits. I do moss sincerely hope that none of my professional hunters, and that includes myself, ever yields to such a temptation.


Let us just examine the other consequences of me choosing either one of these two options:

I choose to heed the collective advice of posters on this AR forum, tell the concession owner to stick his sliding scale up somewhere, and I take my clients to a neighbor’s concession where the same genes and natural minerals and everything that makes good trophies were present in equal measures. But here all trophies are at a fixed price. Here the concession owner had either heard of the high prices his neighbor charges and has fixed his trophy price at the highest, or one of the higher values. After all, if concession owner A can charge a certain price, so can his next-door neighbor. Or he charges what he thinks is a fair fixed price for all trophies shot on his property. If he chose the high-price option, I as hunting outfitter find myself in a worst position as in (ii) above. I must now limit my markup so as to not price myself out of the market. Now I make very little profit, no matter how nice or small the trophy that my client shoots! If the concession owner and I negotiated to agree on what can be regarded as a fair price, I can add a fair markup and also pass on this fair price to my clients. But now I make the same amount of profit on all trophies, irrespective of size, and I’m OK with that! I get a lot of clients, in part because I advertise on AR forum that I don’t charge a sliding scale at all! And my prices are reasonable, because I pass on the fair price that I have to pay. I’m happy with that! There will still be the fortunate few who get really nice trophies at the fixed and fair price. And good luck to them. There will still be the unfortunate few who just manage to get representative trophies. My heart bleeds for them, but such is life!

By the end of the hunting season many of the trophies on the concession had been shot by my large number of clients. I had instructed my professional hunters to work really hard to get the clients that they are guiding some old real decent sized trophies. By the end of the season the late booking clients hardly get a worthy trophy, they had all been eliminated by clients who hunted at the concession before them. Even some young males, the potential real future trophies with long horns, but still largely without character have been shot in an effort by my PH’s to just get the clients at least decent number of inches. This is a sad loss to the gene pool, as the good breeding stock is eliminated long before they had reached the end of sexually active lives, and that just because the possessed the good horns that we all want, and that the concession owner actually so desperately wants to breed into his gene pool.

In the meantime let’s look at what happens on the neighbor’s concession, the one who dared to confront me with a sliding scale of trophy cost, and from which I withheld my business. By me not taking my clients to the sliding scale concession, his animals do not get harvested, as I [on the advice of the AR members] had told him to stick his sliding scale trophies prices, well, you know where. On average his trophies, except the odd one or two that died of old age, grew a year older. And they grew longer horns. And they developed more character. And they on average became more desirable as really nice trophies. He goes without income from selling trophies for a year, and he suffers financially. The animals suffered from being crowded up more that what is good for them. The habitat on the concession suffered from overgrazing, but, we assume that this is not a severe drought year, and most of the animals survive. The concession owner suffers, as he goes largely without income from selling hunting opportunities, but somehow he survives financially and resolves: Wait Mr. Clever Hunting Outfitter who withheld your business, I’ll get even with you! What all of us at AR had hoped is for him to contemplate the foolishness of daring to suggest a sliding scale trophy price, and come to his sense and in future ask a fixed reasonable price!

The next year my many clients want to came again, and some of them have referred a lot of their friends as clients who all want to get decent hunting again. I go and do my pre-season inspection/price negotiation visit at the concession where we did reasonable overall the past year. I find that there are almost no decent trophies left on the place. What do I do now? I drive around again and have another more thorough look. This only confirmed my first reaction, that there are no more decent trophies left! What do I do? I could talk the concession owner into going to one of the game auctions to buy a few nice trophies to release on his property just before the hunting season starts. That will ensure that my clients get what they come to South Africa for: Good hunting with a better than fair, but at least good, if not a very good, chance of bagging a really nice trophy. But that would amount to put-and-take hunting, which we all abhor! So, I must do something else to satisfy all the booked and prospective clients. But, given the fact that the concession that I held, and at which both I and my clients [at least the early bookers] did so well, now has almost no trophies left, what can I do? I simply must find a place where there are at least a good chance of a hard-hunting client bagging a decent trophy!

Now my story has to take one of two routes. For one route I go to find a new concession area at which the owner is prepared to charge a fixed price, and at which I don’t need to even think of offering hunting on a sliding cost scale.

At this new concession I can really expect to have another good year. But at the end of the good year I find myself in exactly the same position again! So I simply find yet another new concession, and repeat the process again and again? Does that sound like a good business principle where we all know that the secret of success in the hunting outfitting business is return clients. I can not take my return clients to the place where they had such a good time last year, because we eliminated all the good trophies last year. Don’t worry, we just go to an auction and buy some live trophies to be delivered just before the hunting season? [I’ll wager a substantial bet that the highest incidence of put-and-take hunting is practiced where the concession owner is also the hunting outfitter.]

Some of you will argue that what I’ve described is poor management of the natural resource. The true trophy potential was simply over-exploited. This may be true, but believe me this is exactly what happens time and again. I’ve approached enough concession owners who refuse to work with any hunting outfitter because of past incidences. They would say something like: “I did it once, and the guy cleaned out all my nice trophies…. He paid me quite well, they shot a lot of fine trophies, more than I thought I had, and I thought it was good working with him. But the next year he never came back, He did not answer my messages, just sort of disappeared off the face of the earth! Eventually I allowed a few other outfitters to take their clients hunting on my property. But it seems as if the other PH’s could not find a single trophy on my concession. Now they also don’t come back to me! I’m just going to offer my animals to South African venison hunters in future. They pay less, but at least I’m sure of my business the next year.â€

So I go back to the concession where I had hunted the previous year. Only to find out that the owner now also wants to charge me on a sliding scale! Or to find that, seeing that I did not bring any clients the past year, I’m not welcome there any more. Or to find out that as I had withheld my business for a year he failed financially and was forced to sell his concession to the sliding scale neighbor, who desperately needed more land on which to hold his excessive number of real trophy animals! [Incidentally: To finance the purchase of the land from his insolvent neighbor, he asked the bank to do a full trophy count, and the bank was prepared to lend him the money required on the basis of the real capital he had tied up in the large number of trophy animals he had crammed up on his property.]

If, at the end of the first year I go back to the sliding scale neighbor and ask about his prices, I’m very likely to find out that he is now asking even higher prices, as he has a whole year’s income to make up for! You must know that he had decided to charge a premium on the quality of trophy animals on his property in the first place as the AR poster by the name of ‘new-guy’ had rightly pointed out: “Management hunting of a property will produce better trophies and an owner/operator has the right to charge a premium for his efforts.†I could possibly also find out that someone like AR member Jaco, who actually offers trophy hunting [at least on some pf his concessions] on a sliding scale, had made a deal with him, that his clients had taken some very nice trophies, and that the concession owner now tells me: “Sorry, I have a hunting outfitter who markets all my trophies at my sliding scale prices, I’m not interested in your business!â€

Jaco, I know that you said that you offer a sliding scale to make hunting of the little bit smaller trophies more affordable. I agree with you on the need to make hunting in South Africa as affordable as possible, but, and this is a BIG BUT, without any compromise to the ethics of what is offered, as you insist on. But hunting, as everything in life, needs to be balanced, if some gets more affordable, some has to become less affordable.

Anyone is free to advocate that the hunting of the more plentiful smaller trophies should be more expensive, while the more scarce big old trophies should be more affordable. This ensures that a balance is maintained. And in a way it does make sense; as the price hike for the plentiful smaller trophies needs to be very small to make up for the price decrease of the scarce larger trophies? Or would this be a violation of the universally accepted market forces law of supply and demand?

Hopefully the readers now have a greater appreciation of why I posted about, what was quite correctly interpreted as, sliding scale trophy costs.

What I as a hunting outfitter know is that, without any doubt whatsoever, it cost me a lot more in scouting time, effort and money to be able to honestly tell a client that: â€You have a very good chance [say 98%] of getting a Roland Ward SAGU in your 6 day hunt.â€, than it would cost me in scouting, preparation and effort to [with exactly the same degree of confidence and honesty] tell him that: “You have a very good chance [say 98%] of getting a representative SAGU in your 6 day hunt.†If it costs mew more, and there are some clients who actually want the Roland Ward qualifier SAGU’s, in order to stay in business I have to somehow make good for the extra cost. How? What AR members are in fact saying by shooting down sliding scale for trophy fees is: “You should make up for the additional cost of getting most of your clients Roland Ward SAGU’s by making relatively more profit on the non-Roland Ward qualifier SAGUs that your other clients are unfortunate to hunt!†Does it sound fair?

After reading the posts madder in reply to my question, I now know for sure how the average AR member feels about sliding scale trophy costs: Awful and disgusted! Yet all, or quite a few, had noted that it is THE way that trophy hunting is paid for in contemporary Europe. It is not my assessment, it is yours! If it is really so, then there must be somereason, sound or otherwise, for it. It is also popping up more and more in Texas, other USA States and South Africa. Here too, there must be some reason for it gaining in popularity – of being used by people who decide how much hunting should cost, that is, not amongst hunters! Yet Frans Diepstraten have said in his posting that; “I've hunted under these scales, but I've never found that it restricted my actions in the field.â€

Let me end this by again reminding everyone that I’m not advocating using a sliding trophy scale. Neither am I really against such use. I can honestly say that I’ve yet to make up my mind about it.

I personally hunt mostly for venison; I get enough trophy hunting thrills at the cost of my clients while guiding them on their quests for good trophies. I don’t eat trophies, but simply love venison. For my own venison hunting I prefer to go to places where the animal is paid for in “per kilogram meat on the hook costâ€. By hunting at places where the cost is determined in this way, I may get to stalk and hunt ethically the very young, sexually quite immature and tasty, tender rams for my own venison. Rather than hunt the old, mature, tough and gamy-tasting trophy rams with [for me as venison eater] useless big horns!

Now, some of you may applaud me by saying: “Look at what he does, he hunts at a fixed price per kilogram. That’s good! That is the only way I will hunt: For a fixed price. If I have to pay for my trophy hunting on a sliding scale based on trophy size, I stop hunting and rather shoot at paper targets!†I take note of and respect this view.

But is paying on a per kilogram meat on the hook not exactly the same as hunting a sliding scale? I mean, a 50 kg young immature ram SAGU cost me UC$50 at UC$1/kg, and yet a big mature specimen of the same species, one that may have a dressed carcass mass of 100kg, will cost me UC$100? That is a sliding scale, right? Or do you consider it as a fixed price? Per kilogram of meat it is a fixed price? Yes! But per actual unit of hunting pleasure it is a sliding scale! A reversed sliding scale! To hunt twice, i.e. for two 50 kg SAGU’s, I pay UC$ 100, or UC$ 50 per hunting experience or killing shot fired. Yet to hunt only once, for a big animal I pay UC$ 100! Twice for UC$100 vs. once for the same price! Sliding scale in reverse? Will some of you now say: â€That’s very bad, look at that guy, he lowers himself to pay for his hunting on a sliding scale! Why does he not rather stick to punching holes in paper?â€

My question remains: If the general use of a sliding scale trophy cost is going to happen, how should it happen? This is the fundamental question in my posting!

I’m not asking how we as hunters are going to stop it from happening? Nor am I asking you to help implement the general use of a sliding scale for trophy costs. I’m only asking for your views on how it should happen, if and when indeed it does/will/would/should/whatever it happen?

How do we define the term: Immature, hopefully in such a practical way that it is easy to measure and agree on the measurement result in terms of actual cost in the hunting situation? How do we define the term: Representative, or when is a fantastic trophy to be regarded as a really rare and sought-after’ prepared to pay a lot of money for the pleasure of getting such an example’ specimen?

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Verewaaier:
I commend you for your position. I am curious how PHs in RSA feel about the Gold/Silver/Bonze trophy scoring system that is widespread. Is there a movement among professioinals to have this abolished? I can tell you the client that gets a silver medal animal is not as happy as the client sharing the camp who took a gold medal animal regardless of the "experience". The difference might be an inch or two in horn length but classification creates the problem. In most prime elephant hunting areas sliding scales have been the norm for quite some time. How about rhino in RSA? That is probably today the worst example of pay by score in existence. I hunt whitetail deer every year and have a great time shooting a management buck. I spend about 25% of what the gold medal hunters spend. So what! I go every year. I could go every fourth year and shoot a big buck. I made a choice just as I choose the car I can afford. I guess I have no problem with the concept if "fair chase" is part of the equation. Releasing canned lions which are pre-priced in a catalog or hunting a specific rhino create moral issues for me otherwise sliding scales are not objectionable. I suspect we are doing a lot more of this already than we realize.

Andrew,
That was a long reply, but your point is very clear. A very important point is if I'm paying on a sliding scale why must I rip of my clients. I do not pay on a sliding scale on all my concessions, but the ones where I do pay on a sliding scale is actually cheaper, so I can give my clients better prices. I have checked my highest prices against other operations and I am very much in line with them. My representative prices is lower. This gives hunters with a budget the oppertunity to hunt more animals. By hunting a representative Kudu the huter can save almost $200 with which he can hunt a representative Impala.

What we must respect is that different hunters have different requirements for trophies. I know foreign hunters that do not take home any trophies and they will even hunt animals with damaged horns, for this specific hunter it is all about the trill of the stalk, in all their hunting years in RSA they have only taken home one trophy. On the other hand there are hunters to who the trophy is very important. So be it, give everybody the chance to fullfill his own dreams.

The most important aspect must still be ethical hunting, we must still be true sports hunters and be able to live with our own conscience. The moment trophy sizes is guarenteed I start worrying about ethics. It is fine o guarentee that there are trophy animals on a concession, but to guarentee a specific size....... it makes me wonder.

Aren’t we forgetting some thing here?
What are we preaching or trying to bring across to the non-hunting community.
We only harvest the old and non-productive animals….
In your experienced opinion, which animals score the most… the young (er) ones.

Thus what are we really saying to each other? Score the biggest and longest horns.
Instead of calculating and determining the age of the animal, according to that score the animal.

Just my opinion.

The posts here by allen day and mark65X55 are outstanding.