I've seen some posts, mostly in the wildcats forum, about necking up the various shorties to DGR-size calibers. There's three reasons I can spot why the factories won't be offering a ShortMag 375/416/458:

1. Once you get past .338 the potential market drops off rapidly.

2. There's been a lot of grumbling about feeding issues with the shorties, and the DGR market won't touch that with a ten foot pole.

3. Magazine capacity is already quite limited for DGR calibers, and the Shorts would probably mean a maximum of two in the mag and one in the hole.

A recent article showed that a 338WSM built on the 300WSM couldn't match the old 338WinMag. That leads me to think that if there were an interest in a 416 or 458 version it would need a bigger case. I would like to see that cartridge drawing. Given that the bullet is already pretty fat, the case would have to be obese to provide enough power in a WSM-length package.

I'd like to see what you all think of this. Am I just stating the painfully obvious, did I miss a few points or get them wrong? Maybe I'm blowing smoke and I'm full of shit. If that's the case, please clear the room for me. Thanks for your time.

Thinking that the WSM might be something, my gunsmith built one to try out the concept. His opinion was that it was highly over rated. It would not out perform either the 300WinMag or his favorite, the 30-338. Conclusion: Waste of a good barrel.

The feeding problems and lack of capacity are real and a consideration in the DGR.

Exactly what is the benefit of this short magnum concept? Is there a lack of regular actions available? Is there a need to lighten your DGR by six ounces? Other than selling more rifles because the gun rags said they are great, what good are they?

I bumped into a young shooter the other day who has a 7mm somebodies short. He is paying 375HH prices for 7mm mag fodder. This is a real gimmic. I suggested that he immediately start reloading. I can just imagine walking into a gunshop in Port Elizabeth and asking if they have a box of 300WSM in 180 or 200 grain.

Ku-dude

THe short mag concept is just marketing hype so that a company with a flagging quality and accuracy problems can generate some new interest and sell some product. It also seems to be a reaction to the Remington Ultra Mag concept, which is just Roy Weatherby reborn into an unreliable action design. I don't have a use for either.

I have a .416 on what is basically a WSM. (It is a .416 HESAM)The shoulder is a wee bit steeper than that on the WSM and the base of the case is .005 smaller. The rim size is the same (or almost??) Brass can be easily made from WSM by necking up brass, then putting it through the resizing die. A special forming die is required to reduce the base .005". It takes about 45 seconds per case. I'd imagine it holds 99 % of what a WSM case would hold if it were just necked up.



This gun is on a Ruger 77 MKII short action. The magazine will hold three cartridges down, but doesn't feed very well (you must cycle slowly to get the first round to feed without a porpoise.) If you load one in the chamber and two down, you can feed right-side-up, up-side-down... fast, slow... all very reliabably. The gun has a ho-hum B&C stock.



It is surely not a .416 Rigby, but shoots 400 grain Hornady encapsulated solids at 2220 fps with 61 grains of AA2520. Softs hit in the same spot. The gun has an AnswerSystem recoil pad. At 8.5 lbs, it SHOULD have some real recoil, but it feels like a .30/06 go me. There is a muzzle brake that came with the rifle, but I've never screwed it on (or the muzzle cap off). It shoots a Barnes X of 325 grains in excess of 2500 fps, making it a real thumper for bigger Western Hemisphere game.



There are much better DGRs of course. I have several. But for what I have in it, the accuracy, the light-weight and low recoil, one could do worse.



I have the loading data for the .458 HESAM. I will scan the data later. Apparantly, one can get 2100 fps with a 500 grain bullet with it.

I have a Lazzeroni 9.53 Hellcat which is the short-Patriot necked up to 375-caliber. It holds 3 in the magazine and one in the chamber and feeds as well as any rifle I've ever owned...that's both softs and solids. Accuracy is well under moa and if you can manage the recoil you can push a 300gr Nosler to 2600fps and 4500 ftlbs of ME corrrectly aplied will get the attention of any animal that I can afford to hunt.

The canard that short rounds won't feed is perpetuated by those who are either dumb, hard-headed, lazy or "traditional" in their thinking.....let me give you a hint------H-S has a magazine that is a single-stack and feeds very well.

Now before you come back and say "who needs it" or "what will it do that %^@R! won't do" all I can say is "You are 100% correct"

BUT we have the .243 Win & 6mm Rem ....the 270, the 280, and the 284 .....the 280AI and the 7mm RemMag, ... the 22/250 and the 220 Swift etc etc

Does it have to be a WSM? I know the local shop built some years ago some rifles for some guys guiding in Alaska (or flying up there or something). They built them on the XP100 actions 375/350 Rem. Mags. The guns had 18" barrels they said and performed real well.

I was going to have a bolt action rifle made in that chambering at one point, make a nice compact rifle, but ended up with a 375H&H instead. I think a compact big bore would be great for brush hunting, but think that in Africa what would the need be? But then again, what is the need for most of the stuff that we all buy right?

Red

Dago Red,

Indeed, I've learned that words like "need" and "practical" have no meaning on these forums. I think it's wonderful.



DB Bill,

Forgot about the Lazzeroni stuff, guess I got caught with my pants down there. I'm sure for $5,000 it feeds very well.



And I never claimed as fact that the shorts don't feed well, just that there's been a lot of complaining about it. I've never handled one, only because I have limited funds for rifles.



Another question, in what sort of environments have you shot this rifle? The Lazz stuff is known for operating at very high pressures and there's also been lots of grumbling about heat and pressures creating problems. I have no experience and only limited knowledge in these subjects so I'm just asking if you've had problems in heat, not trying to start a fight.



Maybe I read your post wrong, but it reads like you're getting angry with me. Please take my word for it, I don't try to piss people off here, though sometimes my way of writing gives people that impression.

Not angry a bit as I always feel a man should shoot what he wants as long as he can take the consequences.

The only thing that kind of pops my cork a little are folks simply parroting what they hear or read without thinking. I unforunately have the kind of personality that needs to stick pins in hot-air ballons.

With respect to the Lazzeroni line of cartridges operating a high pressure you are partially correct....(1) the pressures are similar to those of other high-performance rounds like the Weatherby's, other magnums etc. (2) the Lazzeroni brass is some of the toughest you will find and it is built to take the pressure if you take care of it, and (3) the MCRT McMillan actions used are very, very strong so all in all the rifles are built for their purpose.

why there won't(or shouldn't be) a short-mag DGR)

I haven't been shown a GOOD reason for the
short-mag, for anything, much less a DGR !

OK....I'm beginning to understand now.

The only calibers we can use as they are all we "need" are ... #1 the 30/06 (light)....#2 the .375 H&H (medium)....and #3 .416 Rigby (heavy) and for a double a .470 Nitro (stopper).

I just didn't understand before...it's not about personal preference, it's about "if you can't show a need" then you can't shoot it. Thanks for the clarafication.

Huh? I think your reasoning on the need is a bit flawed, let me tell you how I see it: (and all these are examples of cartridges in that range, anything else in each range would work too, these are just what i personally like)

17hmr. for small squirrells and such out to 100yds.
22lr for teaching kids to shoot and for cheap plinking
22mag for large squirrels
223 because ammo is cheeap and it is a good varmint rig also
22 caliber of something hot like 224 clark or 220 swift, for long range varmint
243 for hunting light big game in light clothing (so recoil is easy to take through the t-shirt or something)
25caliber for antelope
264-7mm for deer at longer ranges
30cal because they are the most versatile, good for deer and small bears etc.
338 for larger things like elk and bears and sich
35cal because it rocks, how about for elk and moose
375 because it is minimum for africa and good for big north america

do you see my reasoning. See, a person NEEDS all of those, I mean you shouldn't use a 35 whelen for squirrels and legally can't use the 22mag for deer! :-)

and yes, there are reasons for the 410, 423, 45cal etc. And sometimes you have to have two rifles in the same caliber (different cartridge maybe) because of hunting conditions. Some for winter with shorter LOP for thicker layers of clothing, some for summer with longer LOP.

Red

I also had one of Jim Busha's creations in for testing, a .450 HESAM on a short-action Ruger M77 Mark II. He also made a .460 HESAM on the Winchester M70 action. I intended to take this rifle on a Cape buff hunt, but it was not to be. When he stopped making the Heavy Express rifles I sent the rifle back. The cartridge is the same as JudgeG's .416, only opened up for .458" bullets with a 46 degree shoulder.

When you get up to the .450 bore rifles, just having a short bolt-action doesn't necessarily translate to a short, handly rifle. The rifle still must have adequate weight to facilitate recoil management.

I didn't notice feeding problems, perhaps having that wide bullet actually helped things.

The .450 HESAM starts a 500 grain bullet out at 2,110 fps, and the .460 starts it out at 2,210 fps. 450 grain bullets give 2,240 fps and 2,375 fps.

I miss not having the chance to use that rifle on a hunt.

jim dodd

DB Bill has it right about the feeding problems of the short magnums. As far as dangerous game goes would a .458 caliber 450 grain Barnes X bullet traveling at 2174 fps. be suitable for certain dangerous game? Not elephants, rhino or hippo but say buffalo, lion, etc.? Lawdog

Lawdog,

If your bullet was described as launched from a double rifle, no one would doubt its suitability for dangerous game.

jim