Shooters,

I am concidering a 470 NE that is marked on the flats as 500gr / IMR-4831 101gr.

Barrels are 23.75 inches.

I am thinking, based on the A-Square manual, this will be much too little velocity, and too little penetration for ellie, no where near 2125 FPS.

Comments????

I get 2050 in my 470 with 28 inch barrels with 102 gr 4831.

Jim

For comparison, my (Searcy) 470 with 24" barrels gets 2143 ave. with 106 grains of IMR 4831, Norma Brass, Woodleigh 500 grain bullets and Federal 215 primers.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Shooters,

I am concidering a 470 NE that is marked on the flats as 500gr / IMR-4831 101gr.

Barrels are 23.75 inches.

I am thinking, based on the A-Square manual, this will be much too little velocity, and too little penetration for ellie, no where near 2125 FPS.

Comments????

What kind of rifle and how does it shoot?

Don't obsess about a few feet per second and don't rely on a book to give you your figures on velocity. Use a chronograph.

Jack
Original specs for the 470 are 75 grains of Cordite, for a velocity of 2125fps in a 31 inch bbl.

The "conversion" formula for Cordite is grains of cordite times 1.33 equals grains of IMR 4831.
So 75 times 1.33 = 99.75.
101 grains should work fine on an elephants head.

PS. The conversion fromula for RL 15 is Cordite times 1.19.
So 75 times 1.19 = 89.25 grains of RL 15.
Warning you MUST use a filler with RL 15 in the 470.

Some additional informatioin:
My 450 No2 is proofed/regulated for the Tropical load of 75 grains of Cordite ["normal 450 No2 load is 80 grains].
I shoot 88 grains of RL 15 with 480 Woodleigh Solids. I can assure you they have no trouble getting to the brain on the 3 elephants I have shot.
My 450 No2 regulates very well with 101grains of IMR 4831, I just like RL 15 better.
In the 450 No2 you MUST use a filler with all powders.

What kind of double rifle is it?

Jack:

You can walk from the Cape to Cairo without touching the ground just by stepping on the bones of fools who tried to shoot elephants with the anemic .470 Nitro Express. As anyone here will tell you, any bullet that leaves the muzzle at less than 2150 fps will BOUNCE OFF ele, buff, lion, etc.

You're over-analyzing again AND believing all the BS you read on the internet. The standard specs for the .470, unlike some of the other flanged nitro expresses, have never changed. As Tony stated, they are 75 grains Cordite, 500 grain jacketed bullet, for 2125 fps in a 31" pressure barrel = 14 tons bolt thrust. Cordite was fairly sensitive to barrel length. Late run original Cordite Kynoch runs around 2060 fps in 26" barrels. I've never fired it in 24" barrels, but I doubt it would break 2040. From it's introduction in 1900 until the old Kynoch company shut down in 1973, Kynoch was all there was for .470 ammo. In other words, those are the ballistics that the .470 made it's reputation with. 101 grains IMR 4831 sounds to be in the ball park. It will work fine at 2040 fps from 24" barrels, just like it always has.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro,

You are the best! The grumpier, more acerbic, blood letting 400 Nitro makes my day. Tax season is going to fun in your office this year. I think we better plan a DRSS event as soon as possible as you need an intervention my friend. Keep us mere mortals in line.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Jack:

You can walk from the Cape to Cairo without touching the ground just by stepping on the bones of fools who tried to shoot elephants with the anemic .470 Nitro Express. As anyone here will tell you, any bullet that leaves the muzzle at less than 2150 fps will BOUNCE OFF ele, buff, lion, etc.

You're over-analyzing again AND believing all the BS you read on the internet. The standard specs for the .470, unlike some of the other flanged nitro expresses, have never changed. As Tony stated, they are 75 grains Cordite, 500 grain jacketed bullet, for 2125 fps in a 31" pressure barrel = 14 tons bolt thrust. Cordite was fairly sensitive to barrel length. Late run original Cordite Kynoch runs around 2060 fps in 26" barrels. I've never fired it in 24" barrels, but I doubt it would break 2040. From it's introduction in 1900 until the old Kynoch company shut down in 1973, Kynoch was all there was for .470 ammo. In other words, those are the ballistics that the .470 made it's reputation with. 101 grains IMR 4831 sounds to be in the ball park. It will work fine at 2040 fps from 24" barrels, just like it always has.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Listen to the voice of reason, as stated above, it is gospel!

Perry, you are a pisser, my friend.

Mark (400Nitro) thank God I consider you a DRSS friend! Whenever I have ANY question about ANY DR, I will turn to you first.

I am amazed at the stuff you know.

quote:

Listen to the voice of reason, as stated above, it is gospel!

Amen and hallelujah!!!!

I doubt if you added up the knowledge of DRs from everyone else on this forum, we still couldn't beat Mark at a game of DR Jeopardy!

400 Nitro is the effendi of double rifles on this or any site, even if he is a bit too much of an Anglophile. I tease him a bit, but the guy is an amazing fund of knowledge regarding all things related to vintage doubles whether English or Contenintal. Some of us like doubles because they are the best tool for what we like to do and couldn't be bothered about what type of action they have or where or when they are built. He loves doubles and will probably never tote one to Africa. However, he can tell you who made it, for whom it was built and why it was done just so. His recall of proof marks alone is staggering and he is never wrong. I don't always agree with his opionions, but am facinated by the depth and breadth of his information. He can certainly tell a good one from a dog and doesn't let emotion cloud his judgment of a gun. If you want an expert to help you pick out a gun he is one of the fellows to trust completely.

Perry

400 Nitro, You are just a BORING know nothing show off!!!
I am here laughing again after reading your post, thanks.

I must ask though, wasn't it the sub 2000 FPS vel. of the early .458 win mag that motivated people to use the full length .375 H&H brass opened to .458 to get 2150 FPS or more using 500 gr bullets?
Really, there has to be a minimum velocity under which we would be foolish to work.
If it's not 2150 or 2125 or 2040, what the heck is it???

Thanks to you all, you're a great bunch!

Jack:

You're a great sport. Thanks for taking my post in the manner it was intended. I was beginning to think it was a tad more acerbic than I meant it to be.

I understand your question. I dunno. I'm not sure it can be quantified that way. My understanding is that the penetration problem with the .458 ocurred with factory ammo that didn't break 1900 fps. My point is this - none of the .400/.450/.470 flanged nitros ever had reputations for penetration problems like the .458 once did. All of them followed the same velocity pattern, 2100-2200 fps, but needed 28 to 31 inch barrels to reach it. In other words, with Cordite ammo in normal length barrels, they were 2000 to 2100 fps cartridges, and they worked fine. It's interesting to note that the .470 and the .400 Jeffery were the slowest of this group, but were also the most popular.

The velocity issue is overblown. I wouldn't worry about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 & Jack you begin to smell penetration problems at the 2000fps mark. Had a look at the skull of an ele bull that took 8 frontal shots from a .470 and a .500 (4 shots from each). It was a big bull, and the shots were not ideal (obviously the one that killed it was). The tusk bases turned or stopped 3 of those shots. I didn't get a chance to chrono the .470 rounds but the lad shooting the .500 Krieghoff had his bullets clearing the barrels at 1990fps.

That said- it is my first and only experience of a .500 nitro being short of penetration. It was a big bull- small ivory and thick tusk bases but still... Pauls curtrent ammo runs out at 2180fps (load care of 500Nitro on this forum)

I have also seen problems when appy hunters have fired .458 win rounds in their .458 lott rifles. Good Federal ammo, but comming out at a chronoed 1950fps and 1930fps. In both instances the appy's poor shot placement failed him rather than his ammo, but on recovery I have been less than impressed with the bullet performance.

The old .458 Win ammo that got a bad rep I personally have chronoed at velocities ranging from 690fps to 1720fps ( winchester and A square). 1900fps is marginal but perfect bullet placement conceals a multitude of shortcommings (ie hit the ele square and not try and punch through tusks and zygomatic arches and you woill find 1900fps just fine). Below 1800fps you are in trouble...

400 has been one of my best friends for longer than either of us cares to remember! He is without a doubt one of the best double rifle historians alive today. As Perry stated above his informational data base is impressive!

BigFiveJack,

Mark is far from boring if you are mildly interested in double rifles and he is far from a know nothing. He shares his knowledge when ask or when it will result in the expansion of the base of knowledge on this or other sites. I certainly don't consider that a show off. By the way...he is a pretty damn good shot with his rifles as well. You would do well to listen to his replies and advise...even if he does get a bit impatient with the silliness of some questions or posters.

400 Nitro...keep ripping 'em buddy!!!

Perry

To PWN375 and everyone else,

It seems I sent out a post that some have taken in a manner that I did not intend and I am very sorry if people got mad, I did not mean it.
I responded jokingly to 400 Nitro's words and thought that my post would be laughed at, the way I laughed at 400 Nitros word's.
I took no offence to his post, (Cape to Cairo...).
I knew right off that he was just being entertaining and informative at the same time.

I thought my post above, which I directed to him made that clear.
He sure seemed to get it.
In his follow up post to me, he called me a GREAT SPORT and expressed that he was concerned that HIS prior, (Cape to Cairo...) post directed to me was too harsh.

As I have already said, I took it as showing "personality" - NOT AT ALL BORING, and quite informative!
In a nut shell I am happy to have read it.

Please, let's all not get "hung up" here.
This is a great site and a joke is a joke and should be laughed at, as these two were, (by me and 400 Nitro and I am sure by many others).

I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy myself! Well, maybe it's that bottle of single malt Perry gave me?

Hey, for whats its worth, I read both post in the manner in which the respective authors intended them to be read.

FWIW,

JPK

Oops! Didn't catch the tenor of the posts. OK, I take back all the things I said about 400 Grains.

Perry

400 Nitro Express:

I feel like a real intruder on this thread because I never used the 470 NE on anything - but I did fire about a dozen rounds from my PH's at a tomato can at about 50 feet - but I guess that doesn't count!

My beef with you is that for years afterwards I was congratulating myself that I could handle a "big bore". ( Truth be told, I really enjoyed shooting the 470) Now you come along and tell me it's an "anemic" caliber! You have shattered an old man's last illusion! I bet when you were a kid in school you delighted in telling the young ones that there was no Santa Claus! (Oh, well, I'll still read this thread because I enjoy the exchanges by real experts. I hasten to say that is in all sincerity because you guys are experts)

My anemic .470 NE double rifle has killed buffalo and elephant, and so far no one has walked over my bleaching bones. Will take it back to shoot rhino, possibly another bull elephant, and even maybe hippo this year as well.

Gerry and Use Enough Gun,
I think ya'll might have misunderstood the meaning of 400 Nitro's post, and maybe mine too. What we were doing is quoting original 470 ballistics in an effort to convince another AR member that it was not necessary to try and "hot load" his 470 double. What 400 Nitro was saying is that "back in the day" the 470 and all the other Nitro Expressed worked just fine at their original loadings out of the 24 and 26 inch bbls of double rifles.

I knew what he meant originally and I agreed with him. I was just havin' some fun! Got to have some fun occasionally! Heck, with that whole Mozambique fiasco going, I thought I'd lighten things up a little bit!

Use enough gun:

Thank you restoring my self respect!

NE 450, No,2

He did say "anemic". I would not want to fire any bullet described by an expert as "anemic"at even a white tail deer in my native state of NY weighing a mere 125 lbs!

I think he used the term "anemic" tongue in cheek.
400 Nitro is among a group of us that consider the 450/400's perfectly suited to DG to include elephants. Anything above that, like the 450 No2 or the 470, 500/465 etc. is just extra icing on the cake.

quote:

Originally posted by gerry375:
400 Nitro Express:

I feel like a real intruder on this thread because I never used the 470 NE on anything - but I did fire about a dozen rounds from my PH's at a tomato can at about 50 feet - but I guess that doesn't count!

That's a damn generous PH! A dozen rounds of 470NE factory ammo is $149.40 @ $12.45 US per round!

I have decided I am not even going to think about this rifle any more, I started too much of a %&$# storm!
On we go with the search.

Jack,
You never did tell us what kind of rifle it was.

I think some study of Nitro Express ballistics and reloading techniques might be called for.

Ganyana,

Thank you for detailing your "hands on" findings, (about 18 posts up) with regard to what happened with those bullets at those various speeds.
I drink that type of info up!


NE 450 No2 and All,

The rifle is the .470 NE by Waffen D'Schulnigg on www.hallowellco.com. The photo's are quite clear, load info is stamped into the flats.

Might any body else like to own this one?

will one of you folks tell me.....A 500 grain bullet from a 470 nitro at 2,000'/sec is fully adequate but a 500 grain bullet from a 458 WM at 100'/sec more is not.....this just confuses the hell out of me.

Who ever said a 458, 500 gr at 2,100 fps wasn't adequate?

465H&H

MacD37:

My hunt was in 1993. I don't think I realized how expensive 470 N.E. ammo was until years afterwards (when I started thinking about a 416 Rigby) My PH happened to be a nice guy who was responsible in large measure for an unforgettable trip. I hope that he didn't find me stingy at the end of it!

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

NE 450 No2 and All,

The rifle is the .470 NE by Waffen D'Schulnigg on www.hallowellco.com. The photo's are quite clear, load info is stamped into the flats.

BFJ, The Hallowell employee just printed what was on the barrels! The rifle is a D'Schulnigg the word "WAFFEN" is German for "MADE BY" !
The rifle is very nice, and looks to be absolutely new! I find German, and Austrian double rifles to be well made, strong, and are generally VERY WELL REGULATED! Some find the Tutonic styling a little much, but this one seems more conservative. $17,495 US is a little on the high side for a used/new double rifle, but when one considers the S&B scope, and Claw mounts, it may be a fair price! I would bet the rifle shoots very well, with the load reccomended!

Hi MacD37,

I think it is a nice rifle too.
I am not going to go up that high I've decided.

By the way, I am pretty sure you've been misinformed on that German translation.
I don't want to sound like a "know it all" - I certaily do NOT know much about this, but I am enjoying the learning.
Waffen means weapons, waffe means weapon, like in WWII the German Air Force was the Luft Waffe - Air Weapon.
Waffenfabrik Hein - Weapons Fabricator, (or maker) Hein - www.rifleactions.com - the firm in Tekoa, Washington builds actions from "scratch".
I am thinking that Waffen D'Schulnigg means Weapons of or by Schulnigg.
I think it's like the old Abercrombe & Fitch, not "makers" of guns, but higher end "marketers" or retailers of guns.

Any one fluent in German, PLEASE submit any corrections.

quote:

Waffen means weapons, waffe means weapon,

Correct.

My wife is Austrian and my German is Spartan, to say the least. But BigFiveJack is correct regarding the translation of Waffen.

Also, a better translation for Waffenfabrik is "Weapons factory", not Weapon Fabricator.