I was chatting with a friend who is close with one of the well known American custom double rifle makers, and does alot of regulation of various doubles.
In the last year, he has been tearing his hair out over regulation with one lot of Hornady, he sends the rifle back to the owner, who uses a different lot of Hornady and it doesn't shoot on a pie plate!!
Seems with the Ukraine war going on, and ammo makers loading tons of 223, 308, etc there is a shortage of powders and brass.
Seems Hornady is switching powders on thier Nitro Express rounds as available!! Apparently they use 4831, 3031, and Reloader 15 loaded to the correct muzzle velocity. Problem is, the speed of powder burn, and bullet dwell time in the barrel is different!! This causes very wonky results with Double Rifle accuracy!! More than Minute of Buffalo or Elephant!!
I have not noticed this yet with my 470 or 450-400 3", but I haven't bought ammo recently!!
Just a caution, check the accuracy of each box of Hornady NE ammo in your doubles before hunting with it!!
This gunmaker spent some time with the Hornady reps at SCI!! They had little interest!!
This is rather disappointing news as this has always been a go to for my 450-400 3"!! I shoot Federals with Woodleighs in my 470...
I am hearing that the massive amount of new shooters with thier AR's, go to the range and shoot up hundreds of rounds and leave the brass!! No handloading, and no recycling!! Everyone suffers!! Oh well, I guess the proposed Bidumb Assault Weapon ban may resolve this??!!

Not the first time Hornady ammo screwed up with a new product. I well recall the first time they marketed Interbond ammo and it became interbomd ammo, fragmenting with little penetration.

I have personally had a lot of trouble with their 500 NE ammo. Rims were out of specs. Some didn’t shoot . Primers that could fall out/removed with a fingernail. Poor performance of the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have personally had a lot of trouble with their 500 NE ammo. Rims were out of specs. Some didn’t shoot . Primers that could fall out/removed with a fingernail. Poor performance of the bullets.

Do they make their own brass or is this farmed out?

Kynoch had four suppliers for their brass when they started up ammunition production again, one of them was Bertram, but after some quality issues they took over manufacture of their own brass.

It sounds like Hornady could have that same issue. I have some new Hornady 404 brass but haven't used any yet so don't know what the quality is like.

I have no idea. To be fair, my ammo is several years old . Things may have changed.

Nothing wrong with Hornady

quote:

This gunmaker spent some time with the Hornady reps at SCI!! They had little interest!!

This has been my experience with Hornady, I had the same experience with Heym, bought a $25k rifle regulated w Hornady ammo, had trouble and couldn't get either to give me the time of day. Went to the show thinking surely they couldn't ignore me in person, I was mistaken.

Some hornady stuff works well.

Unfortunately, they tend to do things like this (or changing construction of the bullet…, or changing dimensions on brass…) with some regularity and not either mentioning it or being willing to admit it.

For gun guys they don’t seem to get that consistency is important.

Double gun ammo is going to be rather powder sensitive… so the argument that it makes velocity and pressure specs isn’t quite as valid as it might be with bolt gun ammo- and regulation isn’t something that the user can adjust on their own.

I’m very happy with hornady for my target stuff. I’m equally convinced there are better choices for my dangerous game ammo.

Let me expand on the issues I mentioned earlier.

MY first 500 NE would not shoot. One of the reasons was that every single Hornady round I purchased had the rims out of tolerance.

We shoot the Hornady ammo for target practice. One day while we were shooting, a friend of mine shooting the same ammo as mine had some rounds that were duds. They did not fire. Can you imagine if that happened with something big and nasty was bearing down on you at bad breath range with bad intent?

I picked up a round one day and noticed no primer. it had fallen out. Then I got to noticing primers that were so loose that I could pull them out with my fingernail.

The performance of the bullets had not been the best. We have recovered solids that were twisted all to hell and back.

The price is right.

I just learned the background on Hornady NOT regulating consistently in double rifles... from one of the Double Rifle Gurus with probably more experience than any...and wishes to remain anonymous...

The key is that Hornady only regulates to specific speed out the muzzle for thier double loads!! They do NOT use fiber wads to position powder loads, and they change powders based on availability....

Double accuracy is all about consistent dwell time in the barrels. If it varies, so will accuracy!! Speed of power burn is very different between 3031, 4850, 4831, RELOADER 15, and Blue Dot...if you change powder and the burn rate us different, even if muzzle velocity is same, you get different point of impact!! Also, the slower the burn, the MORE recoil!!
Also, with no fiber wad to consistently position the powder, if you have pointed the muzzle down or up before firing, the powder is going to be either against the base and primer, or against the bullet. This difference will cause a difference in point of impact!!

INTERESTING, EH?? And the ammo makers don't seem to understand or care!! Even with some stern advice!!

Go Figure!!

Easy solution. Get rid of the temperamental doubles and get a good bolt gun! If the ammo manufacturer changes something all it takes is to resight in the gun. Done Deal!

The best bet as a double rifle shooter is to reload. It's really the only way to ensure consistency of components and for that matter, availability, especially of today's premium bullets, including those designed for doubles producing much less barrel strain than traditionally "accepted" brands.

See the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future thread for all the info and testing data you might want if you're so inclined.

Personally, I've never had much faith in Hornady ammo. I use their brass when it's all I can find but the bullets leave a lot to be desired IMO. YMMV however.

I shot a buff last week with Hornady ammo in my 470 no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by MtElkHunter:
Easy solution. Get rid of the temperamental doubles and get a good bolt gun! If the ammo manufacturer changes something all it takes is to resight in the gun. Done Deal!

HA, YEAH, and a fiberglass stock too, EH!!... Maybe a Whistle-Dick Blaser!!

Do it like Selous or Bell did it in Africa, or Corbett in India... live a little spirit, history and mystic!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
The best bet as a double rifle shooter is to reload. It's really the only way to ensure consistency of components and for that matter, availability, especially of today's premium bullets, including those designed for doubles producing much less barrel strain than traditionally "accepted" brands.



See the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future thread for all the info and testing data you might want if you're so inclined.

Personally, I've never had much faith in Hornady ammo. I use their brass when it's all I can find but the bullets leave a lot to be desired IMO. YMMV however.

I agree with Todd that reloading for doubles is the way to go, I do, however; shoot quite a few Hornady bullets thru my doubles, and other big bores because they are reasonably priced and available. More than one of my doubles were regulated with Hornady ammo (but I’m not able to duplicate the results). Also, I use them for plains game in big bores…work very well. I prefer TSX for the serious stuff. I do like their brass, too.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have personally had a lot of trouble with their 500 NE ammo. Rims were out of specs. Some didn’t shoot . Primers that could fall out/removed with a fingernail. Poor performance of the bullets.

All the brass I can get for our 600 and 700 Nitro Express have wrong rim thickness.

I have to fix them myself in the lathe!

Good info, Thanks. Brian

If this report is true, it seems as though the folks at Hornady do not understand the basic principle of making ammunition for double rifles, which is that it must be 100% consistent and reliable from lot to lot.

Or at least as consistent and reliable as modern technology can produce.

I have been given to understand that Hornady use Reloder 15 in their .470 NE ammo.

If this report is true, it is not good, and again, a violation of a basic principle, that they are swapping powders in different lots.

In any case, this report certainly reinforces the need to check one's ammunition thoroughly for fit, function and accuracy in his double rifle (or any rifle, really) before going hunting with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
If this report is true, it seems as though the folks at Hornady do not understand the basic principle of making ammunition for double rifles, which is that it must be 100% consistent and reliable from lot to lot.

Or at least as consistent and reliable as modern technology can produce.

I have been given to understand that Hornady use Reloder 15 in their .470 NE ammo.

If this report is true, it is not good, and again, a violation of a basic principle, that they are swapping powders in different lots.

In any case, this report certainly reinforces the need to check one's ammunition thoroughly for fit, function and accuracy in his double rifle (or any rifle, really) before going hunting with it.

Reloader 15 is not the only powder one can use in doubles.

I have no doubles, but load for doubles friends have.

Vihtavuouri, Hodgdon and Winchester, we use all of them, depends on the rifle and what it prefers to regulate better.

Vithavuori N150 work very well in my .470 Krieghoff..90 - 91 grains and a 500 grainer such as Hornady DGX Bonded and DGS..give 2100fps..

I think some are missing the point here. With double rifles, it's not only the end velocity of the bullet, but the acceleration rate to get there. Time in the barrel during the recoil arc is what's important to make both barrels shoot to regulation. You can't just switch powders and load them to the same end velocity and expect them all to work in a particular rifle. Multiple powders can work to get to design spec velocity, but they usually won't produce the same results on target.

Think of two cars in a drag race. Let's say both run the quarter mile and cross the finish line at 130 mph. That's the approach Hornady is taking by switching powders and loading to design spec velocity. However, one of those cars might cross the finish line doing 130 mph with a 10.00 sec time while the other crosses the finish line doing the same 130 mph, but with a 9.80 sec time.

One of the things that makes loading and shooting double rifles so rewarding (and frustrating) is fine tuning the loads to get the timing AND design spec velocity just right.

Regulating a double is quite tricky.

In fact, I have no idea why double shooters do not reload.

One of the worse ones I have had was a Blaser over under!

It was in 375H&H, and would not shoot any factory ammo less than 8 inch apart at 100 yards.



Best we could get it to shoot with reloads was about 4 inches??

Todd is BANG ON!!

It's called "Dwell Time" and the drag racing example is perfect!!

Another thing to understand, the SLOWER the power burn is, the MORE RECOIL there is!! That's why the old very slow burning Black Powder loads in a 4 Bore were so punishing. There is a BIG difference in burn rates of modern Nitro Cellulose powers... FROM SAY IMR 4350 to RELOADER 15... BIG DIFFERENCE!!...you will feel the difference in recoil!!

Saeed, that is not surprising for a new double maker!! The inexpensive SABATTI's were the same!! Seems they were using a 300 degree silver solder to connect the barrels, then hot blued the barrels...vs rust blue... they came out all WONKY!! They were also laser crowning the muzzles, vs a proper machining job!! All of this has been resolved now... but it was a real rocky start for them!!

Rarely is it the fault of the ammunition manufacturers. Honestly it’s usually the fault of the shooter and rifle. There probably a couple of key guys on here that could relate to poor shooting!?? Guys that have walked the walk so to speak !

quote:

Originally posted by AR MAN:
Rarely is it the fault of the ammunition manufacturers. Honestly it’s usually the fault of the shooter and rifle. There probably a couple of key guys on here that could relate to poor shooting!?? Guys that have walked the walk so to speak !

Not true.

Too many complaints about Hornady ammo, and has been for years.

The same goes to Hirtenberger, from Austria.

I would not touch it with a barge pole.

They alaways load their ammo far too hot.

I have here, quite a bit of their ammo, in various calibers, that others have given me because they cannot fire them in their rifle without feeling unsafe!

I can't imagine owning a double or multiple doubles without loading your own ammo. I've had rim thickness issues from multiple brands. I won't hunt with new brass.

I am as guilty as anyone over choosing to use mostly reloaded ammunition although was driven to do so back in the late 70's and early 80's when loaded ammo was as scarce as hens teeth to get for my 404 Jeffery.
The conundrum is that if too many take to reloading for their big bores there is a danger that those manufacturers who do provide loaded ammunition will cease doing so, finding it uneconomic to produce due to low demand and with that goes supply of reloading components.

I use and promote cast bullets as a cheap and pleasant way of shooting being able to fire off a lot of shots as well as providing long case life but in reality if too many of us do this for the already low volume stuff such as the NE cartridges, it is counter productive to ensuring cartridge and component manufacturers stay in business.

ain't just big stuff box of hornet ammo - every cae split remmy worked fine

Talking of custom loaded ammo.

Got some 375 H&H Magnum loaded with 235 grain bullets for leopard.

Loaded in Europe.

The customer was complaining some were misfiring??!

I asked him to bring them over, including the ones that had misfired.

Pulled the bullets, and guess what??

No powder??!

Easy to check which ones would misfire.

I weighed all the ammo, and found several without powders.

/the world of a double rifle is different to say the least, and wrought with BS advise...Its best to find one load and live with that, playing around with loads as one would do with a bolt gun is non productive in most cases..My doubles came regulated with factory Hornady bullets and shot great. I mostly ended up with one handload in my 470, 450,and a 475. What a lot of folks don't realize is any double will only shoot as good as the "worst" barrel. I came to the conclusion that the most accurate doubles were Searcy's and both of mine shot under 2"s 4 shots at 50..Tunng a double can be time consuming and difficult..There is a difference in sighting in and regulating a double..

Bottom line, get it to shooting and leave it alone, and keep your sanity..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
/the world of a double rifle is different to say the least, and wrought with BS advise...Its best to find one load and live with that, playing around with loads as one would do with a bolt gun is non productive in most cases..My doubles came regulated with factory Hornady bullets and shot great. I mostly ended up with one handload in my 470, 450,and a 475. What a lot of folks don't realize is any double will only shoot as good as the "worst" barrel. I came to the conclusion that the most accurate doubles were Searcy's and both of mine shot under 2"s 4 shots at 50..Tunng a double can be time consuming and difficult..There is a difference in sighting in and regulating a double..

Bottom line, get it to shooting and leave it alone, and keep your sanity..

We've discussed this before. I wholehearted disagree. I've been able to easily work up different loads, basically meaning different loads for different bullets. For instance, with my 500NE VC, I've worked up 570 gr loads for the TSX, CEB Raptors and #13 solids, as well as Northfork Cup Points and solids, both the old style and new style. I was also able to easily work up loads using the Northfork 530gr bullets at a higher than design spec end velocity. That's the beauty of reloading in that you aren't stuck with one load to just "leave it alone".

If on the other hand, you don't reload, you become very dependent on a single offering from the manufacturer that you rifle was regulated with. In the case of Hornady as we are speaking to on this thread, them switching powders to get the same end velocity is a guaranteed recipe for bad performance.

Thank you, TODD!!

The WHOLE POINT of my post is the present VARIABILITY of Hornady Factory ammunition, due to them changing powders between lots of same caliber... causing inaccuracy in DOUBLES!!

I used Hornady .470 factory on a recent buffalo hunt..a fairly new batch of both DGX Bonded and DGS solids..

They both regulate well in my .470 Krieghoff..it is on the hot side, DGS is 2170fps out of 23,5" barrels but recoil is moderate suggesting the use of relatively fast powder.. Norma factory with 500 grain Woodies recoil significantly more..have not cronoed them..

It is a well known fact that at least one .470 Hornady lot gave problems..

I have personally also had trouble with new Kynoch .416 Rigby and .500 Jeffery...had to force the bolt open with both..scary..stopped using it.

I use Bad Reputation Sabatti 450 and 500 and with Reloader 15 they shoot like a charm
But my old beat up 404 Jeffery is still my favorite as it kicks like a baby…