I am looking at ordering a gun from Butch Searcy (prices go up Feb 1st, '06 on the PH model) for hunting in Africa. I want the gun for hunting elephant and following up on buff and leopard. I would like to get the 470NE but I am thinking of upping it to the 500NE. I do know that the 470NE ammo is easier to obtain in Africa, but when all the hands are down, and Mr. Ele is not happy, I want a rifle that would put him down. Is the extra Case Capacity and bullet worth it???

On elephant, the time when the difference between a .470 and a .500 matters is if you miss the brain. Then the extra concussion of the .500 will tend to stun the ele a bit more and either turn his charge or retard his retreat in order to permit you to get another shot into him. Some of the professional still around who did some culling have expressed a preference for the .500 when going after a wounded elephant in thick jess.

But if you shoot the .470 more accurately, then it will be a better choice.

Also, forget about finding any ammo in Africa. If you do find any at all, consider yourself lucky. Those who have ammo concerns should take along an extra bolt gun in 7.62 x 39 because the local police station will have some of that ammo.

Go with the 470.

Actually if I were ordering a new Searcy, I'd get one of his 450/400 3 inch 26" barrel rifles.
Just my opine! Hope you and your new Searcy have a great hunt!

If I were specializing in elephant, I would get the 500. If you elect to load, it is easier to find a good variety of bullets for the 470. When you're 10 yards from an elephant no matter what you're holding it feels puny. I have a Searcy 470 and love it!

I own and have hunted both elephant and buffalo with both. There is a slight but perceptable difference when animals are hit with that big .510" bullet. The effect seems to be more pronounced on buffalo than on elephant in my estimation. But make no mistake about it, if you put a 500 gr. .475" bullet in the right place, no elephant or buff is going to shrug it off!
Be aware that learning to handle and shoot a heavy double takes a little getting used to. They feel, handle, and recoil much differently than a bolt gun. Not that this is a bad thing, on the contrary. It just takes a little practice, then you'll be hooked like the rest of us.
In summary, if you have the opportunity, try to fire one of these before you order. The .470 NE is no popgun and the .500 NE has slightly more recoil. Both can be fun to shoot, but know what you are getting into.
Hope this helps.

Geronimo

If I were to only hunt ele with a double, then I'd get the 500NE PH. If I were going to hunt only ele, and buffalo with my double, I'd still get the 500NE PH. Now I have a 470NE, and it will work on both quite well, so it would do for the above. However I tend to use my doubles to hunt everything, from jackrabbit, to Mastadon, so in that case if i were only to have one double rifle, for everything, it would be a PH model chambered for 450/400 3". Right now, I'm useing a pair of doubles to cover all my hunting, a 9.3X74R, and a 470NE.

I love the 500NE cartridge, and want one bad, and for your purposes, I'd do the 500NE thing!
The availability of loaded ammo is not a matter I consider a problem, because any double rifle is a handloading proposition, if you are to get the best from your double rifle! The cost, alone, of 100 rds of factory ammo (@$220 per 20 rounds= $1100),will almost buy you a second Buffalo!

Enjoy your hunt, what ever rifle you take along!

500 NE.

Tough call, and great to have to make such a choice!

Three years ago, I considered both and ended up with a 470 due to availability of ammo. Wanted to practice a lot, so also got some dies, etc. Haven't regretted that choice a couple of buffalo and a couple of elephants later.

HOWEVER, the 470 did belt me a bit harder than I anticipated. Having shot (a lot) my 458 Win Mag from the bench, 378 Wby. and 375 Wby, I figured the 470 would be no worse. I guess it's not any worse, but it's certainly no better! Shooting from the bench is a real impression-maker!

Suggest you try both and see if it matters to you. If it doesn't, I'd go with the 500 because it's a bit more and a bit different. An individual choice without a lot of logic behind it, but that's where much of our fun lies!

To SB45,

I too am milling over this exact issue for the exact same reasons, and I am aware of the coming price increase, I am sending a down payment next week to SEARCY, WITHOUT having the caliber issue determined, he told me I could lock in my price that way, and when the decision is NEEDED by him, (months down the line, early spring time) then I'd have to make up my mind.
As an aside, I wish some wildcat maker would take the 500 NE 3 1/4 brass and open it's neck to the max and load the .550 diameter bullet(s) now available (650 or 700 grain weight) at 2150 or 2200 FPS. Better even would be to use the GIANT 475 #2 3 1/2 inch brass and maybe get 2300 FPS or 2400 FPS velocity with pressure at 40,000 PSI or LOWER!!! What a STOPPER that would be!!!!!!!

I really don't expect that you'd get those velocities with low pressure?

I suggest you find someone with a 500 and shoot it a bit!

Bravo,

I second what 500 grains said. The extra horsepower does make a difference on head shots that miss the brain.

I missed the brain shooting a 450 Dakota and it spun the elephant around 180 degrees giving me an easy shot into the left hip joint.

A .470 is still a step up from any .458 so I would be happy with that.

As for spare ammo in Africa, in hunting calibers it is likely to be either the PH's second rifle, a 375 H and H, or his primary rifle, a 416 Rigby. The Ruger has become the defacto standard amongst the current generation of relatively young PH's (30-35 years old) as it is one of the only ones out there a young man can afford.

Andy

Next Question:

Does anyone live close to Pocatello (within 3 to 4 hours) that would be willing to let me shoot there Double Rifle in .470 or .500NE???

I would be willing to pay for the ammo that I shot, and take you to lunch!!

Thanks,

Every 500 I've handled has been very heavy and can't imagine handling it quick enough for a leopard charge.

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
Every 500 I've handled has been very heavy and can't imagine handling it quick enough for a leopard charge.

They are not all that way.

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
Next Question:

Does anyone live close to Pocatello (within 3 to 4 hours) that would be willing to let me shoot there Double Rifle in .470 or .500NE???

I would be willing to pay for the ammo that I shot, and take you to lunch!!

Thanks,

I live in SLC and you can shoot mine.

If you are serious about buying a .470, there is a Chapuis for sale in Salt Lake that you should look at. It comes with an extra set of 12 ga. barrels and case for 11K.

500Grains:

Please forgive what may be a dumb question from this one time hunter in Africa(but you did say about whether the shooter felt comfortable and could shoot with the 470) - (and we both know how important bullet pacement is) isn't the difference between the 470 and the 500 almost a kind of semantic argument? I hasten to say that I never fired the 500 N.E. but I did fire my PH's 470 N.E. about a dozen rounds (at a tomato can) and loved his rifle! (an Italian double, whose name escapes me) It was like my 375 - a "push" {A little bit harder!} rather than a kick. Honestly, (and I never shot at an elephant), but wouldn't the 470 fired by someone who totally trusted his rifle be as deadly as the 500 N.E.? Just asking. I was never there! Just my thoughts. I hope you (and other experienced African hunters) will urge shooters to use the rifle and cartridge that they are totally familiar with and like. (In the old Western expression at turkey shoots: "Beware of the man with one gun")

quote:

Originally posted by gerry375:
500Grains:

Please forgive what may be a dumb question from this one time hunter in Africa(but you did say about whether the shooter felt comfortable and could shoot with the 470) - (and we both know how important bullet pacement is) isn't the difference between the 470 and the 500 almost a kind of semantic argument? I hasten to say that I never fired the 500 N.E. but I did fire my PH's 470 N.E. about a dozen rounds (at a tomato can) and loved his rifle! (an Italian double, whose name escapes me) It was like my 375 - a "push" {A little bit harder!} rather than a kick. Honestly, (and I never shot at an elephant), but wouldn't the 470 fired by someone who totally trusted his rifle be as deadly as the 500 N.E.? Just asking. I was never there! Just my thoughts. I hope you (and other experienced African hunters) will urge shooters to use the rifle and cartridge that they are totally familiar with and like. (In the old Western expression at turkey shoots: "Beware of the man with one gun")

gerry375You are quite correct that a person should use a rifle they are used to, buttttttt, you must have the rifle before you can become used to it. Since SIERRA, is simply asking which chambering is better for his purposes, and since the purchase of a double rifle is no small matter it would be prudant to buy what you need before you learn what you bought wasn't what you needed. In this case he isn't comfortable with either chambering, and I assume a double rifle of any chambering. In this case, he is on the cusp of learning to be comfortable with something new to him! The decision he makes now he will have to live with after the rifle is built!

MacD37:

Thanks for a clarifying post. I see your point - although it does occur to me that if I could find enough prospective DB buyers like SIERRA I could start up a nice little rental business for DB buyers weighing what to get! Anyway, thanks for the comments. (I had somewhat misread SIERRA's post)

Gerry,

Both the 500NE and the .470NE will completely penetrate an elephants skull on a side brain shot and exit with proper bullets.

A .470 is an extremely adequate elephant killer. The .500 is has just a bit more which adds to peoples comfort level in close quarters in thick jesse if that person can shoot the rifle.

I personally find so little difference in recoil between a .470 and a .500 as to make this whole argument academic.

To me it boiled down to two things, resale and components the .470 wins out in both catagories. That is why I own a .470NE

Greg

Surestrike:

I read your post with great interest. To be truthful,while I agreed with your sentiments I did get the feeling that you did give the 500 N.E. the edge - if it came to 6 tons of mzou or an angry nyati being almost on top of you! I killed a buff at about 35 yards with a 375 H&H and he staggered and nearly went down on the first shot and staggered off down a slope and collapsed. It was my first(and only) buff hunt. Sure I know that bullet placement is the name of the game and I had smashed his shoulder -He started to turn to charge, a lone bull (The PH said "Break bones") If I were able to do it all over again- I would want a bazooka!

Gerry, both cartridges will kill elephant. But if the shot is not perfectly placed (and it does happen) then which one will slow the elephant down more?

500 nitro all the way.... i owend one and loved it

but with my new custom 505 gibbs bolt rifle in the works ill probably just stick to that it makes every thing else obsolete.

Sierra:

If you are sold on the 500 by now and if your budget can stand the strain the sidelock underlever 500 Butch has for immediate sale is a beauty. I would bet the gun could be bought for $1K less than the asking price. It will never make it through SCI.

Just an addition to what has already been said. Any commercial bullet over a 458 will be almost impossible to find here in Africa (there are a couple of calibre exceptions). Whatever you go with in the 470+ range please learn to reload and carry enough ammo for the hunt and sighting in on this side of the pond.

quote:

Originally posted by Berger:
Just an addition to what has already been said. Any commercial bullet over a 458 will be almost impossible to find here in Africa (there are a couple of calibre exceptions). Whatever you go with in the 470+ range please learn to reload and carry enough ammo for the hunt and sighting in on this side of the pond.

The above is very good advice! Any double rifle is especially a handload proposition if one is to get the best from his rifle, and a lot cheaper as well! God forbid you ammo is lost on your way to Africa, because if it is not a 375 H&H you are not likely to find ammo, in most countries, especially if you don't realize it till you are at the end of your charter in the bush!

The Searcy Sidelock underlever is no longer available (if you are talking about the one on his website) as Butch is using it for an experiment of sorts.

500grains:

If I read Surestrike's post correctly, I gather that the difference in recoil between the 470 NE and the 500 NE is negligible. So, I guess I would go with the 500 NE. (I do have one sneaking little doubt about the 500 (and, indeed about all very big bores, including the 470) Do they have the same or better penetration as the 470? I gather from reading the interesting stories in this forum that an elephant sometimes will go down from a frontal shot because he was stunned and nearly knocked out. I wonder if the 470 penetrates better? What I'm really thinking about is that some cartridges do have remarkable penetration abilities. (I have the 7x57 in mind as a prime example since I have seen its penetration powers at first hand on black bear) This is a fascinating thread to this old (nowadays) arm chair hunter who saw lots of elephant on his one trip to Zimbabwe - and who now regrets that he didn't budget then for elephant. Majestic, awesome looking beasts up close - so I wanted to shoot one! Can't explain that to any non-hunter!!

I feel I am a good resource person for bolt rifles. I have many in and in the larger African calibers. The double rifle still aludes me. I have not found the right one for me yet. I have been looking for 10 years. When I get close, it gets scooped up by someone else. 500gr said that if you intend to shoot a double rifle a lot, there will be ongoing maintenance costs involved. What are those costs and how does one minimize them? Would they be less with a Searcy? I thought I read that Searcy was debuteing a new action type for this year. I want a 450-400 3" very bad. Is there any reason not to do one with 416 bore diameter using Searcy action? Ammunition is hard to find anyway and most on the forum reload for their doubles anyway. What are the draw backs?

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I feel I am a good resource person for bolt rifles. I have many in and in the larger African calibers. The double rifle still aludes me. I have not found the right one for me yet. I have been looking for 10 years. When I get close, it gets scooped up by someone else. 500gr said that if you intend to shoot a double rifle a lot, there will be ongoing maintenance costs involved. What are those costs and how does one minimize them? Would they be less with a Searcy? I thought I read that Searcy was debuteing a new action type for this year. I want a 450-400 3" very bad. Is there any reason not to do one with 416 bore diameter using Searcy action? Ammunition is hard to find anyway and most on the forum reload for their doubles anyway. What are the draw backs?

Maintance is about the same on any rifle. Preventitive Care is way cheaper than fixing it.

Double Rifles are not for Wildcating. If you have Fuckitis don't get one.

The longer you wait the more they will cost. Didn't you ask me about the Army Navy 400 3 1/4 a few years ago? I sold it to Ray and made about $2500, he sold it 6 months later and he made $2500. You should have bought it from me.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I want a 450-400 3" very bad. Is there any reason not to do one with 416 bore diameter using Searcy action? Ammunition is hard to find anyway and most on the forum reload for their doubles anyway. What are the draw backs?

If you want a B. Searcy, and you want a .416 bore, then go with the 500/416K ! I have, and have had some double rifles chambered for wildcats, and they can be a pain in the butt. I think today, I'd not go wildcat in any type rifle, but certainly not in a double rifle.

Personally, I don't think there is a more parctical double rifle chambering than the 450-400NE 3" , and Searcy is the only maker I know of who chambers his rifles to that chambering.

The maintenance is simple to keep a double rifle working long after you are gone. It is simply take care in the cleaning, storing, and loading of ammo, for you double, and she will be there when you need her!

quote:

500grains:

If I read Surestrike's post correctly, I gather that the difference in recoil between the 470 NE and the 500 NE is negligible. So, I guess I would go with the 500 NE. (I do have one sneaking little doubt about the 500 (and, indeed about all very big bores, including the 470) Do they have the same or better
penetration as the 470? I gather from reading the interesting stories in this forum that an elephant sometimes will go down from a frontal shot because he was stunned and nearly knocked out. I wonder if the 470 penetrates better? What I'm really thinking about is that some cartridges do have remarkable penetration abilities. (I have the 7x57 in mind as a prime example since I have seen its penetration powers at first hand on black bear) This is a fascinating thread to this old (nowadays) arm chair hunter who saw lots of elephant on his one trip to Zimbabwe - and who now regrets that he didn't budget then for elephant. Majestic, awesome looking beasts up close - so I wanted to shoot one! Can't explain that to any non-hunter!!

I don't know if I would go so far as to say that the difference in recoil is negligible. I own both and if you shoot them one after the other, there will be little doubt which is which. I would say there is a 10-15% increase in felt recoil. That may not seem to be much but consider that you are starting out with a heavy recoiling rifle(.470 NE) and comparing it to a rifle that recoils more. I mean the gun is not going to harm you in any way, it's just that you must weigh the extra hitting power against greater recoil and gun weight and get what makes the most sense for you.

As far as penetration is concerned, you need not be concerned in regards to any of the nitro express chamberings from 450-400 on up. These calibers have been taking African big game with aplomb for over 100 years. This is especially true with the superior bullets we have today. All of these calibers hit with authority when the rifleman does his part and places his bullet properly.

Geronimo

Mickey1, I got over wildcatting 20 years ago. In the 450-400 3" changing to a .416 over a .411 is really not wildcatting if the bullet weight is the same. I was only trying to get to a bullet diameter that was more readily available in the USA market. I have a >$3000.00 order of GS custom bullets on the way and could order more, however, standardizing with a standard bullet weight would simplify things since I have 3 other 416 rifles to feed also.

Essentially, I havent found a worthy rifle in an affordable price range in some time. Either the wrong caliber or in poor condition. I will keep looking.

.470 especially as it is your first.
APB

Sierrabravo45
I have a 450/400 3 1/4" and a 450 No2.
I have shot several 470's and 2 500 Nitros.
If you have shot the 458 lott and/or 500 bolt riflesw and do not mine the recoil consider the 500. However if this is your first 'really big bore" go with the 470.
One thing about the 470 is that every one that I have tried a 350 Hawk bullet in shot them to the same point of aim, with great regulation as the 500 grainers. A 350 grain bullet at @ 2330fps makes a great deer, pig, black bear load.
Thus your 470 becomes a multi-season rifle.
A friend of mine has been shooting Superior ammo with a reduced load with 500 grain lead bullets. He says there is no recoil and the load shoots very good.
For your first double I would go with a 470, over the 500.
The 450/400 3" searcy makes is also a Prime choice.

You would be MUCH, MUCH better off with a 450/400 you can shoot well than a 470 or a 500 that kicks you too much.

The WORST thing you can do is to spend BIG BUCKS on a double rifle you cannot shoot well.

Geronomo:

I only meant that shooting the 470 on one occasion was a pleasant experience (for a shooter) I do believe that shooting a 500 NE on another occasion would not have been an unpleasant experience. I freely admit that I have never been particularly sensitive to recoil but I really don't think that you think I should shoot a 470 and a 500 one after another and not feel "a little shook up". JUst my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
Mickey1, I got over wildcatting 20 years ago. In the 450-400 3" changing to a .416 over a .411 is really not wildcatting if the bullet weight is the same. I was only trying to get to a bullet diameter that was more readily available in the USA market. I have a >$3000.00 order of GS custom bullets on the way and could order more, however, standardizing with a standard bullet weight would simplify things since I have 3 other 416 rifles to feed also.

Essentially, I havent found a worthy rifle in an affordable price range in some time. Either the wrong caliber or in poor condition. I will keep looking.

IB404

I think if you change bullet diameters for a 100 year old case you could run into problems selling it. I also doubt that you would save any money in the end by having to pay more for the one off 416. there are plenty of good bullets for the 400 and they are not overly pricey. How many are you going to need, 500 or so?

Sierra!

I have a 465 H&H double and am expecting delivery of a Searcy 470 in February. Your welcome to shoot either or both if you get over this way (Nampa).

I had the same choice a couple of months ago and went with the 470. Reasons: The 470 has all the power necessary to stop an elephant charge. Believe me it is not all that difficult to to stop or turn a charging elephant. A charging buffalo is an entirely different matter. Reloading components and cses are more readily available. The 470 is the most common double caliber in Zimbabwe and if your ammo gets lost on the way, your PH can probably scrounge a few rounds from another PH to get you through your hunt.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
On elephant, the time when the difference between a .470 and a .500 matters is if you miss the brain. Then the extra concussion of the .500 will tend to stun the ele a bit more and either turn his charge or retard his retreat in order to permit you to get another shot into him. Some of the professional still around who did some culling have expressed a preference for the .500 when going after a wounded elephant in thick jess.

But if you shoot the .470 more accurately, then it will be a better choice.

Also, forget about finding any ammo in Africa. If you do find any at all, consider yourself lucky. Those who have ammo concerns should take along an extra bolt gun in 7.62 x 39 because the local police station will have some of that ammo.

Best answer you could have asked for.........

Brad

quote:

I gather that the difference in recoil between the 470 NE and the 500 NE is negligible

I can attest that a doubled 470 has less recoil that a single 500 NE! Just my opine here, but there is a significant recoil increase with a 500! OUCH! And no, I don't like shooting the 500!