AR members,

I am getting the itch to go Lion hunting.

BUT....

I want to do a track, spot and stalk scenario. A good friend of mine told me of a lion hunt that he did long ago in the Kalahari. The hunt took several days and involved 2 Bushmen tracking a large male - they finally go on to him day 5 or so and at that point the big boy came in for a closer look (charged)...

My friend who has killed multiples of the big five said that this was by far the most demanding physically and the most exhiliarating hunt he had ever done.

Who books such hunts if they even exist nowadays???

Thanks,

Jeff

I did one with Buzz Charlton of CM Safaris in Chewore North in Zimbabwe. However, it was the second half of October when it was very hot with little vegetation. I think it would have to be a late season hunt with more bare ground to facilitate the tracking. You can read about this hunt in the latest issue of African Hunter magazine. At least that is what I hear as I haven't actually got my copy yet. It is called "The Last Lioness" or "Death in the Chewore" or whatever the editor decided to call it.

Jeff,

We can do one in Mozambique. The soil is very sandy and the tracking doable. If you are at Reno stop by and I can organize a meeting with the outfitter at the show. This is a real chance for a big boy.

Mark

Your mates at Chifuti can certainly arrange one of these hunts which is best to be done from September onwards so the spoor can be seen on the sandy dry ground and with the heat and minimal leaves the Game will be forced to rest near water.

Ozhunter and I were both at Chewore North at the same time and both of us took lions. I bumped a pride on the first day. Later in the season is the way to go for the reasons Ozhunter stated above. It is probably the most economical cost for a true free ranging tracking lion hunt you can find.

I'm sure Chifuti could offer you what you want and you might also try Ganyana.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
AR members,

I am getting the itch to go Lion hunting.

BUT....

I want to do a track, spot and stalk scenario. A good friend of mine told me of a lion hunt that he did long ago in the Kalahari. The hunt took several days and involved 2 Bushmen tracking a large male - they finally go on to him day 5 or so and at that point the big boy came in for a closer look (charged)...

My friend who has killed multiples of the big five said that this was by far the most demanding physically and the most exhiliarating hunt he had ever done.

Who books such hunts if they even exist nowadays???

Thanks,

Jeff

Jeff,

You ask if true wild lion hunting is still on offer? Sure, such ethical hunting for real wild lions still exists! Who offers them? I don't know well enough to reply to that one, so I'll just let it pass with the comment that I'm sure there are a few HO's out there that can do it. I'm also sure there are a few HO's out there that regularly and consistently does it. These are the ones you want to get in touch with!

What I do know well enough is to issue a bit of a warning to be very, VERY and even V-E-R-Y diligent in the selection of the hunting outfitter you trust to make your dream of hunting a wild lion in the proper manner come true. Unfortunately I also know that there are a few HO's out there that can do it, but regularly let clients shoot a canned lion!

The scam works more or less like this:

The owner and/or a Hunting Outfitter who has hunting rights on a farm where wild lions may or does wander around from time to time - fenced or not, it's immaterial - offers lion for hunting. There are many such farms: Along the western boundary of the Kruger National Park, along the Botswana South Africa border in Limpopo and [particularly] North West Province, near the Etosha Park in Namibia as well as large areas in Zimbabwe, Botswana and probably other southern African countries too. The fact is that true wild lion do sometimes visit or pass through the area! So the offer by the HO to hunt a wild lion is very real and quite valid!

Problem is that such lions are often not very accommodating by being present on the hunting concession when the client is actually there! And when they are actually there, they seem to know very well how to evade the hunters, and outsmart the trackers for days on end. These two facts together results in a rather low success rate for hunters hunting true wild lion in many areas where they do occasionally occur.

Enter the "Captive Bred Lion Provision Industry". This is a very large industry in South Africa - large enough to scare the shit out of Kortbroek van Schalkwyk and make him remove lion from the list of "large predators" in South Africa. Can anyone imagine that a lion is not on the official list of large predators in South Africa? Just shows you how large the Captive Bred Lion Provision Industry is. Why is this industry so big? Because there is such a high demand for captive bred lions to be supplied to Hunting Outfitters who let their clients shoot them. An industry can only grow to the extent that the demand for the services of the industry exists or can be created by good advertising.

OK. So the client has now been hunting for a number of days, searching for a true wild lion. Maybe seeing some tracks, maybe not. The PH hunts hard, the trackers do their best, but no contact is made. Time is running out! The Hunting Outfitter then makes an all important telephone call to one of the many members of the captive bred lion provision industry. If he is "hunting" with his client in South Africa, a relatively honest individual can be contacted. The seller must just load the agreed on lion, drive through the night and deliver it at an agreed on location very early in the morning on an agreed on date. He will not have a transport permit, but will be using a nondescript transport van with no markings to attract any attention. Road blocks late at night in rural areas are very rare, and the driver [often the actual breeder or a very trusted worker] will have a wad of cash to bribe his way out if caught! Sometimes the delivery has to be made in Botswana or Namibia. Then some more daring individual is required to smuggle the live but tranquilized lion across the borders. But it is regularly done! Many farmers living along the border have very good across border relations with their neighbors in the next country. Regular no-passport visits and business are done across the borders: So an early morning crossing at a suitable place is no big deal, and hardly noticed!

Once delivered at a given location on a given date, the chances of the PH and trackers getting the client on to the [often still tranquilized] lion increases dramatically! Very few clients will ever notice anything wrong, and they will give glowing testimonials on how exhilarating and ethical his hunt with the particular HO was. BS! He may have ethically hunted a wild lion for a number of days. And believe you me, the PH/farm owner hunts very hard to get him a wild lion – thereby saving the considerable cost of paying for a captive bred lion! Truth is often [usually] that he actually shot a “canned” lion! No not ‘canned’ in a small enclosure, but canned by virtue of having been captive bred! This is evident on the ‘Mickey Mouse’ appearance of many of the lions hunted by clients of HO’s that offer such hunts. You ask: “What the heck is a ‘Mickey Mouse’ lion?” It is one with absolutely no facial or body scars and a fantastic mane! There is no indication that he has ever been in a territorial scrap with another male lion. Just look at the pictures of clients posing with their lions, here on AR and elsewhere; the very scarred ones are true wild lion, and [with a high degree of confidence] the unscarred ones are captive bred individuals.

Darn, the thought that maybe I should not post this just crossed my mind! Some captive lion breeder may read this and will realize that he can tranquilize a nice male lion in it’s cage, get a vet or himself to gouge out some superficial facial skin, allow time for superficial wounds to heal and form scar tissue and so make him look more like a wild lion that was in a few territorial fights! It will no doubt up the price, and make it more difficult, or even impossible, for experienced lion observers like shakari, Ganyana and others to spot the fakes when pictures are posted by the proud hunters!

Jeff, I really wish you well in your search for a HO that consistently offers real ethical wild lion hunts. I honestly do not have enough knowledge of who is who in the zoo to, without taking chances or be accused of favoring friends like shakari and Ganyana, make a recommendation on a lion hunt HO: So don’t even waste time sending a PM and asking! I really don't know, but wish you well!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
AR members,

I am getting the itch to go Lion hunting.

BUT....

I want to do a track, spot and stalk scenario. A good friend of mine told me of a lion hunt that he did long ago in the Kalahari. The hunt took several days and involved 2 Bushmen tracking a large male - they finally go on to him day 5 or so and at that point the big boy came in for a closer look (charged)...

My friend who has killed multiples of the big five said that this was by far the most demanding physically and the most exhiliarating hunt he had ever done.

Who books such hunts if they even exist nowadays???

Thanks,

Jeff

Talk to Ganyana!

Andrew's post above is one of the most accurate, truthful and pertinent posts I've ever read on any forum.

Interested in Burkina Faso? Usually not long manes, but very mature animals and it is illegal to hunt them any other way. Success, however is pretty good.

Ozhunter- Great lion! You did that lion a big favor as I bet he was miserable carrying all that hair around.

Andrew McLaren- Great report but disgusting as well. I didn't realize that the problem extended into Botswana but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Jeff- I've hunted lion on foot and over bait. In many areas, esp Tanzania, the ground is just too hard to track a soft-footed animal. Being soft footed many lions will walk down roads and game tracks and it is possible to jump a lion there--I've shot two in Tanzania this way. On the other hand, there is not a single rock in all of Botswana--the entire country is made of sand. A lot more conducive to tracking. BTW, hunting over bait can be very exciting. I've crawled into blinds in the predawn black only to hear lions roaring behind us on more than one occasion. That is plenty exciting and shouldn't be poo-pooed.

Just a question not wanting to stir the pot. What is the great difference between hunting raised lion (not drugged and set for the shooter) and raised Kudu, Impala, etc?

Ngong Safaris does tracking lion hunts in Cameroon. Manes tend to be somewhat short in that area, but body size is huge. I hunted Roan with them in 2004 and we cut lion tracks almost daily.

I only had a 12 day license for plains game and couldn't take a lion on that license or I would have made a play for one. We also saw Lord Derby Eland several times, but alas, my license didn't include one of them either. Lesson learned on the license. Get the most extensive one you can.

Ngong's booking agent is Premeir Safaris in Apoka Fl. They have a website if you want to look it up.

Didn't Boddington suggest in "Safari Rifles" that a properly handloaded Marlin .45-70 might make a hell of a rifle for walking up a lion?

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
AR members,

I am getting the itch to go Lion hunting.

BUT....

I want to do a track, spot and stalk scenario. A good friend of mine told me of a lion hunt that he did long ago in the Kalahari. The hunt took several days and involved 2 Bushmen tracking a large male - they finally go on to him day 5 or so and at that point the big boy came in for a closer look (charged)...

My friend who has killed multiples of the big five said that this was by far the most demanding physically and the most exhiliarating hunt he had ever done.

Who books such hunts if they even exist nowadays???

Thanks,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

You have a PM

Regards,

JL

Dear Sir
South Africa is a good option for your desires.
I am not talking about canned hunts, Klaserie and Timbavati Game reserves put Lion out Occasionaly. You can get a really big Lion like that, the only way to do it legally there, is to track them. I am sure you already got a PM re this.
Let me know if you need anything further info.
Ernest

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Just a question not wanting to stir the pot. What is the great difference between hunting raised lion (not drugged and set for the shooter) and raised Kudu, Impala, etc?

Difference? The species!

But there may be a difference in our understanding what constitutes "raised" for these different species. I'll try to reply without acting as if you've stirred my pot!

Let's just for a moment re-consider the original main idea for Kortbroek van Schalkwyk's promulgation of the TOPS regulations. These were formed with much public participation [read 'greeny input'] and decrees that a captive bred lion [or what you call a 'raised lion'] may be hunted only if it had lived a self-sustaining life in the area in which it was released for a minimum of two years. This would have effectively put the Provision of Captive Bred Lions Industry out of business. They threatened with legal action [I'm not sure if it even ended in court?] and Kortbroek responded by deleting the lion from the original list of large predators. This in effect again "legalized" captive bred lion hunting. [Just BTW the scenario that I've described above is, besides being disgusting as a poster had remarked, also totally illegal. But it is also extremely difficult to police or stop. But that is beside the point.]

Point is under serious negotiation conditions a "compromise" between greenies who wanted a total ban, and the lion provision and shooting industries of two years of free living in an area as being adequate to make a captive bred lion an "uncanned lion". Whatever any personal view of the two years period is, is a bit besides the point: With full public participation the South Africans involved sort of agreed to this period of free living of a released animal - in this case captive bred lion - into an enclosure before hunting it can be considered ethical to hunt it there.

Now consider the high fenced farm where antelope, be it kudu and impala about which Oupa asks, or any other antelope or animal, is "raised". These farms are of two main kinds: Very intensive animal production units with individual or small groups of animals in very small camps where they are fed and watered. These can be considered “captive bred” or “raised” as they are treated just like captive bred lions: There is absolutely no opportunity to act and live natural lives. This type of operation is typically used to breed disease free buffalo, sable, roan and other very expensive animals. These are typically sold to the game ranching industry as breeding stock to re-stock game fenced areas. A few males are also sold off to the hunting industry, but usually not as trophies, rather as young animals and the buyers let them grow older to trophy status on the property before they are hunted by clients. [There is one particular hunting area that consistently provide good quality waterbuck for all the clients hunting there. Yet there is not a single waterbuck female on the farm at all! The farm owner who is also the Hunting Outfitter buys all the young male waterbuck from the game capturers and lets them mature to trophies on his farm. The fact that there are no females limits the fighting and resultant deaths and broken horns amongst the males.]

The other type of 'confined animal raising' is where game are confined in bigger areas in which they live free ranging lives. Their natural behavior of feeding, mating and evading predators and man is lived out more or less normally, despite that any desire to migrate or travel really far is limited by the high fences. This is the typical "hunting farm" on which all South Africans hunt. The animals hunted were typically bred, born and raised on that one property. They know the area very well and know how to evade hunters. IMHO there is absolutely nothing unethical, or even "easy", to hunting an adult animal in the area where it grew up. As it takes at least 5 years and more to become a trophy [impala] the 'agreed norm' of two years in an area for converting a captive bred lion into an "ethically huntable lion" is far exceeded for any trophy antelope hunted under these conditions.

But there are a number of game farm owners who, for a variety of reasons, do not want any hunting on their properties. They believe in 'live capture' of game as the main method of controlling species numbers on their enclosed properties. They sell the live game on auctions to game farmers who want to introduce or re-introduce species, and to provide "new blood" or genetic material to prevent or diminish in-breeding. Problem is that neither of these types of buyers wants old male animals: They typically want animals in groups consisting of, for example, one or two fit virile young males and up to 10 females. The other males, particularly old ones with long horns, are sold to the "Put & Take" Hunting Outfitters (HO's). These HO's typically have very good accommodation facilities and excellent cooks, caretakers, PH's and equipment. They can really look after their clients very well. To make sure that their clients get good trophies, they simply buy the trophy animals at an auction and release these into the high-fenced area at the beginning of the season. In many cases - although I regard it as disgusting - the delivery of the animals is scheduled to be just before the arrival of their hunting clients. Taking one of these as a trophy is what I define as "Put & Take" shooting. Note that I choose to use the word “shooting” and not “hunting” here to describe what the unenlightened American and other nationality clients do to these bewildered and totally disorientated animals! They know not where the territorial boundaries of the resident bulls are, they do not know how strong and dominant which bulls are. They have no territory of their own and get chased around by all the resident territorial bulls, so increasing the chances of getting shot by a client. This type of Put & Take shooting happens in places and by Hunting Outfitters from who you would never suspect of such deplorable practices! I here and now state categorically that no client of Andrew McLaren Safaris will ever be offered a “Put & Take” animal! If you want to know who these Put & Take guys are, just attend a few game auctions and see who bids on the groups of male or individual trophy animals!

Often, but not always, a "Put & Take" trophy can be recognized by the fact that it was found right next to a fence. Any hunter with a basic knowledge of tracking can see the spoor of an animal that walked up and down along a fence looking for a place to escape. Let me hasten to say that not all trophies shot right next to a fence are "Put & Take" animals. But animals that have been in an area for a long time know where the fences are, they know they cannot escape through the fences and have nothing to gain by being there right next to the fence. [There are exceptions though - for example, territorial impala often fight from two sides of a fence!]

So, to get back to the short reply, it is only the species which differs for when a lion is delivered at a known point, and the tranquilizer antidote is injected to have a fully aware but disorientated lion set for the hunters and some “canned” hunting of old past breeding age males delivered from an intensive animal breeding operation. Both are pen-raised and cannot be hunted, only shot!

Where young males, be they from pen-raised intensive breeding operations or from capture form large areas, were released on a property to grow to maturity and trophy size, I personally have no ethical qualms about hunting such animals: They know the area, will have been there for 4 and more years, may have established their territories and some have even bred. Where there are only males of a species on a property, like the waterbuck example, you must decide on your own ethics! I’ll reserve my opinion until I’m really faced with making the choice – I hope to never have to make the choice!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew - great post! And sadly too true

There are several places where tracked lion is not only feasable but also the best way of getting one. Ian Gibbson in Chewore is fast becoming a practitioner of the art.

Botswana was always the best location- but that is closed- and has done my lion hunting a world of good! I only get two on quota each year- and I am not taking bookings for next year as this is Zimbabwe

I use bushemen trackers on the kalahari sand in western Zim- Sure as hell beats watching meat rot, but!!!! at the first sign of man, the male usually manages an amaizing vanishing act, leaving an aggressive bitch or three to put in a demonstration to cover his withdrawal. Males do charge- About 1 in 5. They do occasionally stand up and snarl at you. (1-10), but one can count on a good mock charge from one of the ladies at least 50% of the time.

If the male is alone - he is usually young and I don't bother to follow up. If he is old, he has more degrees in cunning than I can usually cope with

Well this has certainly been a most educational thread. Thanks to all who have responded, and for the look behind the scenes at how the SA hunting industry has developed. Should I ever be fortunate enough to return to Africa, I shall certainly have more questions to ask my agent and outfitter.

Although it's commonly denied, the truth is that if you want to be sure of hunting a truly wild lion, you need to do it in a true wilderness area such as Tanzania or Mozambique etc............. and you have to be prepared to accept the high cost and lower success rates of that.

I personally believe that the canned shooting industry is currently the biggest threat to our sport and the entire African hunting industry as a whole and that the sooner the disgusting practice is wiped out the better.

Sorry Ganyana you don't have true wild Lion hunts per the above, only Tanaznia and Mozambique and wherever etc is. Apparently none in Zim, Zam or any of central Africa, eh.

THANKS EVERYBODY!!!

I'm off to yet another show - upon my return I'll sift, search and start the process...

Thanks again to all for a most interesting and informative thread!

JW out

Damn, I know the Americans and the Brits are two nations divided by a common language but I didn't know they don't teach you guys to use a dictionary to look up the meaning of etc.

If I hadn't used the etc, I'd have had to name every country with true wilderness areas...... although actually, both Zimbabwe and Zambia do have fenced areas and Andrew's comments could easily be as applicable to some of them as those in some other countries.

PS: Mr. McLaren,

You must have really fast fingers / a great secretary to type for you....really appreciate the copious amounts of VALUABLE information!

What areas of Zimbabwe and Mozambique are conducive to tracking lions? Are there any areas in Zambia where tracking is possible?

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
What areas of Zimbabwe and Mozambique are conducive to tracking lions? Are there any areas in Zambia where tracking is possible?

Places like Chewore, Sapi, Rifa and Nyakasanga Safari Areas of Zimbabwe's lower Zambezi valley have good numbers of Lion but due to the fact that the ground is quite hard and the areas have heavy foliage it would be best to hunt the hotter dry months of the year (September, October & early November). Then the ground will have dust and the foliage will be thinner to help visibility of Spoor and game.
Chirisa is another Zim Safari Area that could also be good for tracking. With its sandy ground and more open terrain, it might be possible to book such a hunt a little earlier in the season.
The Luangwa hunting areas of Zambia might be suitable for Lion tracking hunts as there are quite a few Lion in this area (certainly when I was there).
Imho, The most important thing required for a Lion tracking hunt is a great pair of Trackers.
I believe this is why Zim is a good option.
As I was told , most of the great Trackers had in their youth the job of collecting via "tracking up" the farm cattle in the mornings .

Sadly the odd canned lion is making its appearance in the Gwaii area in Zim (and possibly other areas as well)

Tuli circle is a great area for a tracked hunt, but the current operator (Karel Strydom) is a bait and blind man (and a good one). Some years ago though (before karel got Tuli Circle- The "best Lion out of Zim" was shot there- full of Ketamine from a nearby breeding project exactly as Andrew described- and this was inside a state safari area!

So do "canned" lions keep fresher longer...how does that work exactly?

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
So do "canned" lions keep fresher longer...how does that work exactly?

Brian

It is the Vitamin K they get injected with before loading and transportation that relaxes them and let them rest so well that lets them keep fresher for longer!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:

quote:

Originally posted by Allout:
So do "canned" lions keep fresher longer...how does that work exactly?

Brian

It is the Vitamin K they get injected with before loading and transportation that relaxes them and let them rest so well that lets them keep fresher for longer!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Excellent, just as I suspected...

Mr. McLaren your perspective on things relating to African hunting is indeed a joy. I appreciate all the information and the great posts...Keep it up.
Brian

Hello Jeff

I did exactly that in Burkina Faso, the only down side is that the lions do not have manes. You can read my report on the African hunt report forum.

Aziz