What a jip.

I remember a bolt gun that belonged to John Hunter going for $10k a while back.

This is insane.


Okie John

An Elmer Keith owned 22 rimfire Ruger handgun sold at auction for $21,000 recently.

SCI auctions rifles for over $100,000 at their convention each year.

Hammer

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:


SCI auctions rifles for over $100,000 at their convention each year.

Hammer

Yes, but those are best quality rifles that would cost $100,000 and take 4 years to get built. Nothing wrong with that because the rifles actually bring those dollars in the open market. In other words, they are worth it.

It's just the idea of some guy wanting $55K for a $1200 rifle that didn't quite sit right. It seems that someone would be paying a premium of more than $53K because Elmer owned the gun. From the looks of the stock, Elmer probably did not even hunt with the rifle.

I would think that Elmer's favorite 44 would be the most sought after Keith gun. Wasn't Elmer a 500 Boswell rifle hunter?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Yes, but those are best quality rifles that would cost $100,000 and take 4 years to get built. Nothing wrong with that because the rifles actually bring those dollars in the open market. In other words, they are worth it.

It's just the idea of some guy wanting $55K for a $1200 rifle that didn't quite sit right. It seems that someone would be paying a premium of more than $53K because Elmer owned the gun. From the looks of the stock, Elmer probably did not even hunt with the rifle.

When was the last time a pre-64 Winchester 70 Supergrade 458 sold for $1,200 ?

Recent production custom shop guns retailed for $3,000 +.


In the 6th picture, it says the rifle paid for a doctor's bill in 1968. If the doctor's bill was $3,000 in 1968, what would it be in 2006 ?


Hammer

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

Yes, but those are best quality rifles that would cost $100,000 and take 4 years to get built. Nothing wrong with that because the rifles actually bring those dollars in the open market. In other words, they are worth it.

It's just the idea of some guy wanting $55K for a $1200 rifle that didn't quite sit right. It seems that someone would be paying a premium of more than $53K because Elmer owned the gun. From the looks of the stock, Elmer probably did not even hunt with the rifle.

When was the last time a pre-64 Winchester 70 Supergrade 458 sold for $1,200 ?

Recent production custom shop guns retailed for $3,000 +.

Hammer

I'm going to agree with 500 Grains on this one.....that gun is not original and frankly is an action only....it's only other value is the fame of it's previous owner. IMO it'd be worth more in the .375 H&H length!!!

What did the handgun used by Jack Ruby to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald bring at auction a few years ago ?

Hammer,
Are you selling this rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
What a jip.

And a gyp, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:
What did the Harrington & Richardson used by Jack Ruby to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald bring at auction a few years ago ?

Elmer didn't shoot anyone with that .458, did he?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Elmer didn't shoot anyone with that .458, did he?

I heard he shot Tonto while he was bring snakebite medicine to the Lone Ranger some place down near San Antonio.......He thought Tonto was an illegal ailien.

Elmer was quite the rascal.....

Don't think Elmer Keith ever shot anyone.

The point concerning the Ruby handgun, poorly made obviously, was that guns, cars, other stuff, owned by famous people or associated with famous events have frequently brought in the market more than the same item without similar history. Most may not care to spend their money on these items and that is fine, but the market in general has produced this phenomena. Wonder what the brushes and easel of Leonardo da Vinci would bring, though in anyone else's hands the brushes today would not even be good enough to paint a barn.

Realizing that not everyone has all of Keith's books, thought some people would enjoy the pictures of a dangerous game rifle designed and built by one of the more experienced hunters of the Twentieth Century. A man who carried and shot a gun daily for 70+ years. A man who influenced many in the general hunting and shooting population as well as the gun manufacturers of his era. When Keith set about to build his personal dangerous game bolt action rifle, this is what he built.

Realize that many here could do better.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
I would think that Elmer's favorite 44 would be the most sought after Keith gun. Wasn't Elmer a 500 Boswell rifle hunter?

Elmer Keith's 44s are not in original factory condition as he had them modified to suit him, so some here would see them strictly as parts guns. Don't think the current owner sees them that way though.

By the way, Hamilton Bowen gets $15,000 to build replicas of Keith's Number Five. Guess the original might bring a nickel or two more, but then it is not original and only a parts gun.

Elmer Keith owned several double rifles including a 500 Boswell which he used and liked quite well.

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:
What did the Harrington & Richardson used by Jack Ruby to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald bring at auction a few years ago ?

Ruby killed Oswald with a Colt Cobra.

I don't see the similarity. I can't seriously entertain the belief that a rifle owned by Elmer Keith, who is mainly associated with handguns and who occupies a marginal place at best in American history compared to the Kennedy assassination, would be historically in the same league of significance as Ruby's gun. I agree with vapodog that is really nothing more than pre-64 action with a famous former owner.

As for what Hamilton Bowen gets for building Number 5 replicas. He charges what he does because he's one of the best pistolsmiths in the world and builds best quality guns. He gets a similar price for everything else he builds as well. People pay his prices because they want a best quality gun, not because it is a Number 5 replica.

+1

Also, if no. 5 replicas have any appeal it isn't because Elmer Kieth's name is attached to it. It's because, after designing four handguns previously, the bugs had been worked out and a very useful handgun design resulted.

A gun is a tool, and no tool is valuable if it isn't useful. You'll notice nobody is paying big bucks for no. 2 or 3 replicas.

Hamilton Bowen is obviously one of the premier gunsmiths/gunmakers. His work is beyond reproach.

"He gets a similar price for everything else he builds as well."

Just checked Bowen's website. His revolver work starts at $300 with full conversions going to $6,000 for single and double actions. That is, except for the 100% authentic Keith #5 which is $15,000. Wonder what drives the difference in price ? Couldn't be demand.

Will pass it along to the seller not to expect any of ya'll to raise his current offers. Sure the seller will be sadly disappointed.

Hope ya'll don't mind if the seller chooses not to disassemble the rifle and sell it for parts.

Will also pass it along not to expect high bids on the original #5 or S&W from ya'll either.

With regards to the original purpose of the link...

Sorry that sharing the pictures of Keith's rifle was not welcomed here. Sorry that misread the interests of the forum. Will try not to do that again.

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
... I can't seriously entertain the belief that a rifle owned by Elmer Keith, who is mainly associated with handguns ...

Agree that many identify Keith with handguns, but anyone well read in Keith appreciates his books on rifles and shotguns too. Based on number of books and articles written, Keith definitely liked them too. My memory isn't any good, but currently recall eleven Keith books of which two were dedicated to handguns.

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:
With regards to the original purpose of the link...

Sorry that sharing the pictures of Keith's rifle was not welcomed here. Sorry that misread the interests of the forum.

Hammer,
I, for one, appreciated the thread.....I know you expected some different kind of response but just because folks didn't take positively to some guy asking $55,000 for a $1,000 gun simply because it belonged to someone famous, doesn't mean that posting the link and resulting photos wasn't appreciated.

Two of the photos was actually more valuable than seeing the rifle....one of keith himself with his handgun and another of his bill of sale and personal signature.

I thank you for this thread and I suspect I'm saying the same as others might if they will....

What your reading is simply disdain for some guy trying to get rich because he bought a rifle from a Doctor and thinks it worth a mint.......when it's a fine gun that just happens to have as it only strength a M-70 Pre-64 action and an owner we all knew and loved.

I for one ask you re read the replys.....they are not aimed at Keith...or you.....but at the situation of someone pulling a scam.

Ditto on what vapo said.

Also this is the same guy selling the BSS Searcy Double that I think there was a thread on a little while ago
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976736498.htm

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

What your reading is simply disdain for some guy trying to get rich because he bought a rifle from a Doctor and thinks it worth a mint.......when it's a fine gun that just happens to have as it only strength a M-70 Pre-64 action and an owner we all knew and loved.

I for one ask you re read the replys.....they are not aimed at Keith...or you.....but at the situation of someone pulling a scam.

My sentiments exactly. I didn't mean to imply anything negative towards you Hammer, I appreciate you starting the thread. I just get sick of these scam artist dealers.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Hammer:
With regards to the original purpose of the link...

Sorry that sharing the pictures of Keith's rifle was not welcomed here. Sorry that misread the interests of the forum.

Hammer,
I, for one, appreciated the thread.....I know you expected some different kind of response but just because folks didn't take positively to some guy asking $55,000 for a $1,000 gun simply because it belonged to someone famous, doesn't mean that posting the link and resulting photos wasn't appreciated.

Two of the photos was actually more valuable than seeing the rifle....one of keith himself with his handgun and another of his bill of sale and personal signature.

I thank you for this thread and I suspect I'm saying the same as others might if they will....

What your reading is simply disdain for some guy trying to get rich because he bought a rifle from a Doctor and thinks it worth a mint.......when it's a fine gun that just happens to have as it only strength a M-70 Pre-64 action and an owner we all knew and loved.

I for one ask you re read the replys.....they are not aimed at Keith...or you.....but at the situation of someone pulling a scam.

If I am not mistaken this is the second thread we have had on this subject. It's been entertaining at any rate.
I can say one thing with certainty, there is no middle ground, it's either junk parts or the greatest thing to be offerred in the last 50 years. No need to restate my thoughts.
I have a number of Keith books, so I made a quick scan through "Safari" (which Elmer signed for me in "72) and find that in that review this rifle is not pictured in the book nor is the .458 given much space. Now I am sure that from all the information presented and the date of "Safari" he had the rifle at the time of writing.
As to famous people having owned or used given guns, I would be sure Warren Page took more foreign game than Elmer ever thought about. As to dangerous vs. dangerous, I don't know and don't care enough to dig through eachs books and "rag" stories. Warren was the Field and Stream gun editor for many years. Geo. Caswell at Champlin currently has a Westley Richards 12 bore that was built for Warren for sale. Without looking the website up I think it was priced between $5900-6000.00. That is a far cry from the inflated "name" value of the subject rifle. I haven't seen the documents to back it up, but I am sure they have been seen for George to be stating that in the ad.

Just for giggles, think about what Elmer's Ithaca 10 guage Mag., that he killed canada geese at 100 yards with on the Salmon River, would be worth today.

I like ol' Elmer, but there is a limit!

Perhaps the seller will list it on gunbroker with no reserve. That should remove all doubt as to what the gun is worth.

quote:

Originally posted by M16:
Perhaps the seller will list it on gunbroker with no reserve. That should remove all doubt as to what the gun is worth.

The gun is worth what any gun is worth; what someone will pay for it. If someone is willing to shell out 50 large so he can boast that he has a gun once owned by Elmer Keith than the gun is worth 50 large. People have been known to spend large sums of money for items previously owned by people that they consider celeberties. Christies is about to auction off pair of paint splattered pants worn by Andy Warhol. I don't expect to bid on them or Elmer Keith's rifle, but it wouldn't surprise me if someone else does.
I do object to the characterization of this offer as a scam. A scam is a fraudulent action. If the rifle never belonged to Keith then it would be a scam; since it did, I assume the seller has documentation, it is simply a offer to sell at a price that many of us would not be willing to pay. There may be someone else willing to pay the price. That isn't a scam, it's the marketplace at work.

TerryR

I started to reply to this a few days ago, but wasn't a "member" yet. This guy is smoking something. Just because Elmer owned it doesn't make it worth 10 times what it's worth. Right now on Greg Martin Auctions, there is a Lancaster Oval Bore, 303, double rifle, also owned by Elmer. GM feels it will bring 12-15K, a far cry from a pre-64 70, in 458. I was at an auction a few years back, in NH. They were auctioning off Bill Jordan's guns, etc. Except for his personal sidearm, and his hat/badge, NOTHING brough over what it would have cost in the local store to buy. And Jordan had his OWN serial number that was put on all his handguns, by the factories. His model 70 458 brought about $1,200.oo if I recall right. Maybe $1,500.00, certainly no more than that. This guy has stars in his eyes, or something. Same as the guy who has a complete set of TRs books, autographed, he thinks is worth a 100K or thereabouts. One guy asserted an Elmer owned Ruger single six brought $21K at auction. PLEASE let me know who had the auction, cause I'm from Missouri.

Just noticed the other remarks to Hammer about the posting. No offense to Hammer. Glad to see the rifle. Like others, it's not the poster here, but the guy trying to sell something for 10 times what it's worth. More power to him though.

"Hell, it was there!"

Kieth may have used the rifle to fire the first kieth style big bore rifle bullets, starting the FN - Rn debate. I read ""Hell I was There"" when I was only 20 it was a great read. The rifle is worth what some one will pay for it. If someone buys it as a keep sake of Kieth's they will pay more than what its worth as a shooter.

JD

If you go to Greg Martin Auctions, he is auctioning off a Keith owned Double Rifle, in 303 British. It's a Lancaster oval bore. This is a reputable firm and only deals in good quality stuff, and they are only expecting $12-$15k for this rifle, which is worth a lot more than a pre-64 70. I called the guy who has the 70 for sale and he said he's had no serious inquiries yet, and would monitor the Martin auction to see what they get for the DR. I have serious doubts about a Ruger single six going for $20K, and would like to know where it was auctioned.

If anyone is still looking at this thread, the 303 British, Lancaster Double Rifle, of Elmer's , went for $14K.