After all the complaints about this or that rifle, and the latest being the CZ'z, and whichever one today is a piece of crap, and no right-minded PH would ever use one, blah, blah, blah, I just wonder how many realize that most PH's typically use the cheapest rifle that could buy or one that was given to them.

PH'a hardly ever snap a cap and then it is only because the client has probably screwed up the shot.

You can go out and spend whatever you want to for a rifle but as long as it feeds, ejects, and goes bang, what difference does it make?

The AR ad in African Hunter does not go far enough!

Spot on.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You can go out and spend whatever you want to for a rifle but as long as it feeds, ejects, and goes bang, what difference does it make?

Most rifles will do all of those things off the shelf, but quality control being what it is in today's world, some don't. Also, some start out fine, but then break down after not very long.

And people tend to complain when they get a lemon. For me, the test is what happens after the complaint is registered with the maker.

Good ones will admit their mistakes and make things right, by fixing the problem, replacing the lemon or refunding the purchase price.

As for PHs, I have always believed that right after I show up and confirm the zero of my rifles, my PH ought to do the same with his. But that has never happened, and I haven't pushed the issue.

I'm not sure that I totaly agree that PHs use the cheepest rifle they can find. My PHs have used the following makes and calibers:

Cogswell & Harrison 404 Jeffery
Westley Richards 450/400 3 1/4"
CZ550 Magnum 458 Lott
Merkle 470
Ruger RSM 416
W. Evans 470

465H&H

I am going to hate myself in the morning...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
After all the complaints about this or that rifle, and the latest being the CZ'z, and whichever one today is a piece of crap, and no right-minded PH would ever use one, blah, blah, blah, I just wonder how many realize that most PH's typically use the cheapest rifle that could buy or one that was given to them.

You can go out and spend whatever you want to for a rifle but as long as it feeds, ejects, and goes bang, what difference does it make?

But I couldn't agree more.

Brian

quote:

As for PHs, I have always believed that right after I show up and confirm the zero of my rifles, my PH ought to do the same with his. But that has never happened, and I haven't pushed the issue.

I wonder if this is related to the old Africa saying "Don't shoot in front of the clients"?

I agree with Will...

CZ is getting bashed at the moment but, that will change....it always does..... If the folks at CZ were to improved a few of the rifles short comings the CZs would be the new darlings on the forum......

It seems that we here on AR really do 'need' something to feel strongly about either for the positive or negative. Makes for interesting reading...

BTW - I certainly do feel MJines got a lemon and CZ should take care of the problem(s) to his satisfaction.

Regards,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I'm not sure that I totaly agree that PHs use the cheepest rifle they can find. My PHs have used the following makes and calibers:

Cogswell & Harrison 404 Jeffery
Westley Richards 450/400 3 1/4"
CZ550 Magnum 458 Lott
Merkle 470
Ruger RSM 416
W. Evans 470

465H&H

I know that the Merkel was a freebie.

I hunted with a guy that also had a 470 Wm. Evans. It was also a freebie.

Nice tip, I'd imagine.

Will!

I hope he doesn't expect my Searcy as a tip next month!

465H&H

I hunted with one PH who used a pre 64 Win 70 in 458 Lott with a 19" heavy barrel.
The next one didn't carry a rifle at all. We were not hunting dangerous game and no big cats were around. I guess he didn't worry about anything else.

All I've gathered is that the BRNO(CZ) is and has always been very popular in Africa in general as well as amongst PHs. My $800 Rigby is fine for what it is. It's not as slick as a custom gun but may be more reliable due to the looser tolerances. My only real complaint is the stock is a little bulky. It did shoot high but an $8 bead switch from CZ cured that. A couple of niggling things, one of which is a personal preference. It shoots well and reliably. Some owners have had feed issues. Were those mostly with shorter rounds? I can see how this follower and ramp set up would not be kind to shorter flat point cartridges.

Personally, I feel that rifles with feeding and ejecting problems even in dead pure factory rifles is pretty rare. I have no idea how many bolt rifles I have owned, but am still waiting for one that doesn't feed or eject well. Of course I have had some parts break, but very little. Bear in mind that the people who have one that is bad will be way more vocal than the ones who own the ones that operate as they are supposed to. That is born out by the recent post that CZ rifles are a POS, then the last reply is that they are sending him a refund! They bought back the rifle (which no warranty does) while the guy posts on an international forum what a bunch of assholes they are.

Will
You're spoiling all the fun! What if my wife reads this!

I know of Some big money Hunters who can afford the best but buy the cheapest rifles going. They have hunted the big 5 several times!

Also know people who have very fine rifles but buy some crappy rifle to take on safari...

Not sure if I understand the mentality of either of the above groups. As my friend RA says when are you coming this way again...

If you can afford it buy the best and USE IT.

Will,

I think you just never know what the PH will be carrying. Often times I think they carry whatever they can get their hands on let alone whether it is cheap or not. Some do have some nice artillery but I think as has been said often times it may have been given to them. I've seen a CZ 375 with a 4.5x14 Tasco, a pushfeed Mod 70 taped together with duct tape and a non functional safety, a couple of custom Mauser with way short LOP's, Manlicher Schonauers and fancy doubles. If it goes bang it it is good enough for most.

I didn't put this in my report on Cameroon but I thought of the discussions on AR about rifles each morning of our hunt. Charles my PH had a custom Model 700 Remington in 416 Remington with a muzzle break and 2 Zeiss scopes in Leupold QD mounts. I'm sure somebody would have thought he had the wrong equipment but the rifle had let Charles clean up a few client messes and he thought higly of it. BTW it was a gift.

Mark

I would suggest that the PH and the client tend to look at their rifles somewhat differently. For the client the rifle is often a representation of a dream. It must speak to us of days spent tracking buffalo or elephant on the hot sun, standing a charge or being in the company of the old white hunters whose exploits we love read. To the PH, the rifle is a tool. If it goes bang and shoots to a consistant point of aim at 25 yds, or so, it's good enough.
If you are buying a pick up show, you buy an escalade, if you buy one for work, a F150.

TerryR

I don't agree at all that African PHs us crap or cheapo rifles.

All of the PHs I have used either used:
- Mauser 98 actioned rifles, sometimes custom rifles;
- CZ M98 actioned rifles;
- Winchester Model 70 controlled round feed rifles.

All except for one who used a Remington 700 as he was left handed, and another who used a "spare" rifle (still a Winchester M70) because his rifles were in storage in another country.

CZ's are not crap rifles, and can form the basis of very good hunting rifles.

I think some clients get wrapped up in too much a pursuit of perfection. Also have way too many rifles to choose from, shooting only a few rounds from each each year, that is if they fire any at all through them.

It would be better to have one or two, and know the rifles really well, shoot them a lot, so they become a "third arm".

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
After all the complaints about this or that rifle, and the latest being the CZ'z, and whichever one today is a piece of crap, and no right-minded PH would ever use one, blah, blah, blah, I just wonder how many realize that most PH's typically use the cheapest rifle that could buy or one that was given to them.

PH'a hardly ever snap a cap and then it is only because the client has probably screwed up the shot.

You can go out and spend whatever you want to for a rifle but as long as it feeds, ejects, and goes bang, what difference does it make?

The AR ad in African Hunter does not go far enough!

Will, that was then and this is now. Prices are up for services (and well should be) and freebies do sometimes abound for those deserving them. The Baby Boomers are-a-charging and with no let up in sight.

See 458win's recent comments on this very subject of Ph/quality guns(Ak forum, I think).

BTW, CZ's do suck meaning one should not have to purchase new then spend major money and time to re-create a hunting rifle, fit for purpose nor mail the bastid all over hell's half acre and the time involved in that pursuit of "excellence" only to 'git-er-done. Bullscvhitt on that. Just my 2 pennies.

p.s: Liked your book. It's in my 2 Grandsons' future Outdoors library that I'm building for them,,,along with Cz sucks.
DB

Ken Robertson has a nice little section on PH's rifles in his book "Africa's Most Dangerous". Reliability was his #1 recommendation...goes without saying...and an appropriate caliber for the game being pursued. He recommends a minimum of 458 caliber for a PH to sort out issues with dangerous game...not a bad suggestion. He also mentions the $$ issues surrounding the cost of most DG backup rifles facing PH's today.
I know my PH in SA....who also hunts leopards and elephant in Zim has been waiting for a SA permit to switch from his 375 to a 416 he was given as a tip....a permit he has been waiting for over a year....so I imagine there are numerous reasons a PH has what he (or she?) has.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI

Someone posted that to a PH a rifle is just a tool and of course, they are correct; just like a great many cops carry what ever their department furnishes and shoot only for annual qualification: a mindset that I cannot understand since their lives depend upon their "tool" and you know which one I am referring too! On the other hand, my tradesmen use the very best tools that they can find, since, they feel that a good tool will allow them to produce better work: which, in my experience, they do. Makes an interesting comparison, don't you think.

Some can afford Snap-On, others Craftsman.

Remember the crap CZ was a stateside CZ USA custom gun(s) in 404/505. My Rigby and all the Lotts and others I know of (etc) from the CZ factory do exactly what they're intended to. For $800. I know of one gun that needed refacing for zero with factory sights but they fixed it by switching to aftermarket. I would've sent it back and gotten a new gun.

"...I bought you a brand new Ford but you said I want a Cadillac..." - B.B King

The typical problem here is Cadillac expectations in a Ford! Sadly, few of us can afford totaly beautiful AND reliable firearms.

quote:

"...I bought you a brand new Ford but you said I want a Cadillac..." - B.B King

The typical problem here is Cadillac expectations in a Ford! Sadly, few of us can afford totaly beautiful AND reliable firearms.

I'm more of a GM guy myself.

I think that MJines got a lemon of a CZ, but every CZ I have owned has worked beautifully as is from the box.

To quote consumer reports, I still feel they are the "Best Buy" on the market right now. If you want, send it off to a competent smith get it tweaked and customized, then have a beautiful and reliable gun.

I would be less interested in what he carries and more interested in how he shoots it when things get ugly. I'm sure that PHs feel the same way about clients.

most phs use whatever they can get their hands on when they first qualify, in africa there are not many well serviced gunshops ....as that ph starts to hunt more very often the rifle is upgraded and he ends up uysing something better.

a great eye opener for me was when in the early 1990's, i went into a second hand gunshop for the first time here in the states and realised how easy it was to get a good rifle ...

i used a .375 winchester for almost ten years,i bought it for 750 dollars used.. i had a .458 as a backup that i BOUGHT off a client for $1000 and then got my double rifle , a .450 3 1/4 that i have used the last 6 years, this i got from a client who swapped it for daily rates (the guy shot over 40 elephants with me in ten years).

available is a better word to use than cheap ... as a new ph someone will get whatever is available , rather than whatever is cheapest ...

Funny to find this thread. I just got back from a big Sportsman show and was talking with a couple South African PHs. I could resist asking about guns.

#1 .375 H&K ( I said you mean H&H, right)
#2 .375 H&H bolt. He went on to say that whatever gun it was it had to be a bolt action. I said "and double rifles too I assume", yes any bolt action is OK
#3 This guy was the only legit guy of the bunch IMO. He was from Ingogo Safaris. He said he used a .458, to which I replied Lott or WM? His was a WM.

These guys are cleary not gun nuts by any stretch of the imagination.

It's a fact of life on safari or at home.... it's not what you have it's how you use it

. CZ is not an ugly gun but life is toooo short to hunt with an ugly gun

I think Ivan hit the nail, if you read what he is saying. We take it for granted that all we have to do is go to the Gun Store and buy what ever it is that we want to buy. With all of our precived problems, we have it better than most when it comes to getting the rifles we want.