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STOP MISREPRESENTING PHASA’S POSITION ON CAPTIVE-BRED LION HUNTING Pretoria, 2nd March 2016 – There is no possibility of cooperation between the Professional Hunting Association of South Africa (PHASA) and the South African Predator Association (SAPA) as long as the predator breeders persist in preserving their captive-bred hunting component. Responding to a Facebook post from SAPA dated 29 February 2016, which suggested the two associations were finding common ground on the hunting of captive-bred lions, PHASA chief executive Tharia Unwin said nothing could be further from the truth. “Earlier this year, SAPA sought to discredit PHASA by claiming that we bowed before an onslaught of uninformed public opinion’. Now they are trying to ride on PHASA and Safari Club International’s good reputations and influence to serve their own agendas by deliberately distorting what transpired at a SAPA-hosted lion workshop,” she said. “I attended this workshop as an observer and not an invitee. I had to react when PHASA was made out to be the villain. I told the delegates that the predicament they find themselves in, and the alienation they face from other wildlife stakeholders, was their own fault and not PHASA’s. Although I was encouraged by the commitment shown to transform the captive-bred hunting industry, I told them that it perhaps too little, too late.” “This hardly suggests an enthusiasm on our part to ‘work together’ or to embrace SAPA as a ‘valued member of the hunting fraternity’,” she said. Unwin said PHASA’s position on captive-bred lion hunting is very clear: “PHASA has distanced itself from the practice until such time as SAPA can prove its conservation value to PHASA and the International Union for Conservation of Nature.” “PHASA is not going to clean up SAPA’s house for them. We tried for two years and made no meaningful progress. It was a mistake to think we could improve the standards under which these lions are hunted; and one that has caused our industry and our country significant reputational damage. It’s up to SAPA now to prove the value of this type of hunting to us and the public at large. While doing so, we would appreciate their leaving us out of it.” “PHASA had a gentleman’s agreement with SAPA that we will refrain from making statements about one another without first running it by the other party. SAPA is clearly disregarding this. I request that SAPA use the appropriate forum, namely the Hunting and Wildlife Associations of South Africa (HAWASA) in future and not social media and the press to serve their own agendas.” Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | ||
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As posted elsewhere on AR about lions, I think PHASA is bowing to pressure from outside. If they let the antis win this one, they will divert their attention to any game animal hunted within a fence. Logic and common sense means nothing to them. It is alright to breed all sorts of animals to be slaughtered and fed to the masses, but it is not alright to breed an animal to be hunted??? | |||
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The breeding/rearing of a domesticated species to be destined for the slaughterhouse is a more accepted practice to the anti-hunting community as it is taken for granted that the selected animal will be well cared for and "euthanized" in a humane way with no risk of pain involved. That's what they think. | |||
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You must be kidding! These lot are incapable of thinking at all! | |||
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You must5 be kidding! These lot are incapable of thinking at all |
Perception is never wrong! NEVER EVER is any person' s individual, or a group's or organisation's perception ever "wrong"! My own perception is that PHASA bowed to pressure from anti hunting groups and changed their stance on the captive bred and released for shooting lion business. This is my own personal perception and it can never be wrong! PHASA, and even many AR members and participants in this discussion may, and even will find it most undesirable that such a perception exists and is expressed. But my, or anyone else's perception, on this or any other matter can never ever be wrong!. Undesirable from the point of view of PHASA, yes, but not wrong! So, to quote Saeed, and as posted here and elsewhere the perception that PHASA bowed to pressure is Not wrong!
To add to what Saeed said: PHASA's stance is that it's also OK to breed some big-horned animal under intensive care conditions - read that as in a small cage or very small enclosure - then transport the animal to a high fenced hunting area and "put" it there to be shot or "taken" a bit later on the same day. To the best of my knowledge PHASA has NEVER EVER condemned this practice and, also to the best of my knowledge, has not ever taken any disciplinary action against any of their members for partaking in this unsporting and unethical practice. On the other hand I have very personal experience where a past President of PHASA in a gathering of professional hunters actively defended such practices. So to further complement Saeed's accurate observation: PHASA holds the view that it is OK to raise chickens and the like to be slaughtered, and it is even OK to partake in "Put-'n-Take" shooting of half-tame pen raised animals, as long as it is not a lion! I wonder what PHASA will do if the SAPA challenges them to explain the difference between shooting a kudu, buffalo or whatever raised in captivity, or one caught on one property and transported and released on another hunting area, and shooting a lion that was subjected to the same treatment? PHASA, you, as an organisation are, by making the differentiation that I accuse you of, on a slippery downward slope that leads to God knows where? Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Off topic I know but it has happened. Footage was released a couple years ago of 'less than desirable' slaughter practices and overnight the former Aust Government shut down a whole beef industry sector because of it. No animal-use industry is immune from this. Just sayin'... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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Just another group with no balls hoping that if they give in to the anti's on this one they will go away. A group with no bite to do anything even if someone does still hunt a raised lion. All show and nothing but a group of sell outs to hunters rights to pick what we hunt. If the outfitters were raising there own lions and making all the money like most do on the buff they raise this would not be an issue for them. Time us hunters stop picking what is ok to raise to hunt and what is not. Let the hunters decide and stop making one animal different then any other. | |||
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I attended some of the meetings where this supposed pressure was exerted on PHASA and can assure you that the majority of the executive was under more pressure from WRSA to support canned lion , as well as pressure from hunting assoc from Namibia , Botswana, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Ethiopia to distance itself from the unacceptable practice of canned lion killing. SCI was caught between a rock and a hard place as they feet in all sectors. A very large majority of hunters not in PHASA but organizations across Africa called for PHASA to distance itself from the canned lion industry. sadly its clear the distinction between hunting ungulates that adapt and survive behind fences is being compared to predators, canned lions are not self sufficient , and anyone telling you stories of rehabilitated tame lions is misleading you, there are no success stories documented in scientific journals that I am aware of. The entire history of the canned lion industry and its practiced have done irreparable damage to African conservation hunting. Shooting a captive bred canned lion is not hunting and cannot be associated with sport or conservation in any manner whatsoever. Until hunters make this differentiation you cannot expect hunting to regain acceptance in the public domain and continued denial will accelerate closure of hunting in African counties. | |||
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Yep! They'll get lions, then what next Buffalo, kudu? PHASA will scream then! Nope! This is a sellout. | |||
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To even think a raised lion could not make it in the wild is just crazy. Everyone like to make lions as they are so different then any other animal. So many animals turn wild again after some time back in the wild. We can all guess and even tell other what hunting is to yourself just dont need anyone telling me hunting a raised lion is not hunting. It is bad enough some anti telling me this but them when another hunter does it is just not good for anyone. Do I think every raised lion would make it well no but saying a lion can not is just bs.People are guessing on both sides but we give a inch they are going to take a mile. | |||
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This has been going on for decades. Why PHASA is "suddenly" finding this unpalatable and claiming not to be bowing to public pressure at the same time is silly at best. Simply admit the truth, that public perception is forming PHASA policy and stop pretending otherwise. No one is buying it. You're doing more damage to your reputation and standing with the charades. You guys need a competent PR agent in the worst way.  In regards to the ethics of shooting captive bred animals, the next definition will simply be the size of the cage. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Like has already been said: Lions today but buffalo, kudu, springbok, red hartebeest, blue and black wildebeest, bontebok, scimitar horned oryx, eland, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. tomorrow. The canned Safari hunting industry in South Africa is dooming itself. | |||
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The suicidal slippery slope... ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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It sounds to me like saying a house cat wont survive in the wild... A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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PHASA is a joke. They wont see a cent from me. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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  "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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I repeat at the African Wildlife Consultative Forum which is a conference of most African countries conservation authorities and private hunting associations, PHASA was placed under considerable pressure to take the issue of captive bred lion (shooting , we refuse to call it hunting as it is not hunting and insults hunters who have hunted wild lions) back to referendum of it's members, which was done late last year , the majority voted to distance itself from captive lion shooting. It is not the anti hunters who have pressurized PHASA but the professional hunter's associations across Africa. I still to this day come across international hunters who believe they shot a fair chase lion behind a fence in South Africa , a sham and blight on the sport of hunting. As hunters if you continue to be misled about the differences of hunting wild lion and killing captive bred lion you will witness continued closure of all hunting in Africa outside if small fenced farms , predator and big game will be closed as the authorities will have reason to not trust the private sector with the responsible management of wildlife . it further remains s shame that there are still so many hunters that believe captive bred lion shooting is contributing to conservation or sport hunting , and even worse that the kill is a sincere hunt . The fact that hunters who still support this practice and fail to understand the PHASA position are numerous is evidence that DSC and SCI , CIC , and conservation bodies associated with hunting are failing in their education program. I am not a PHASA member but do represent the Botswana professional hunters association and probably speak informally on this issue for the Zambian , Namibian , Mozambique and Tanzanian professional hunters who all supported the distancing of PH's from the canned lion industry at the AWCF. from a personal stand I urge hunters to investigate the canned lion killing industry thoroughly, there is no honor or sport in killing a lion raised in a pen and being released for you to shoot no matter how it is sold to you , if you are not advised in full this is a cage raised lion released with a 100% chance of killing it in a day without the chance of not ever finding it you are being misled, be aware no matter how good friends you are with a reputable PH , he will have to hide his displeasure and loss of hunting respect for you , he will hide it , to protect you from the dishonor but know deep down he is deeply disappointed. if you shot a caged lion , and can openly admit it was just a kill and not a hunt no matter how you were driven walked around the park to make it look like a hunt , then no problem call it anything else but a kill/ shoot, you are not fooling anybody in the know. | |||
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Whose business is it to tell anyone how or what to hunt? So much of hunting in South Africa is done behind a fence . Then do we call these hunting? Are they comparable to hunting wild animals? What about put and take? PHASA has gone off the rails! | |||
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+1 Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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And a lot of folks say the exact same thing about shooting animals behind a high fence. So where do you draw the line? Along species? ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound: I repeat at the African Wildlife Consultative Forum which is a conference of most African countries conservation authorities and private hunting associations, PHASA was placed under considerable pressure to take the issue of captive bred lion (shooting , we refuse to call it hunting as it is not hunting and insults hunters who have hunted wild lions) back to referendum of it's members, which was done late last year , the majority voted to distance itself from captive lion shooting. It is not the anti hunters who have pressurized PHASA but the professional hunter's associations across Africa. Final some truth from the people not for raised lions. They feel it insults there so called wild lion that they paid more for. I dont care who is in the group or who formed the group just one more of them that sold us hunters down the road because of pressure. I dont need anyone telling me what hunting is to me or what I should be able to hunt. Last I look hunting an animal by tracking one down is hunting. I know my son lioness was not coming to play with him after that first shot was taken. I fully knew my son lioness was raised to hunt and hunt it we did. You guys just keep kidding yourself that they will go away. Just keep making it that your better then us who hunt in SA behind fences. So far your doing a great job with winning the fight. Ele last year and lions this year yup we sure are winning the fight worrying about what other hunters do and how we do it. | |||
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Yep! We are bleeding to a very slow death, Cecil helped that process speed up. We might have 30 years, and we might have 70 or more. If the airlines quit carrying our guns, there is no way to get trophies back or worse more African leaders accept bribes to make hunting illegal we will be done all together. | |||
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We are at a large show this weekend. One of the oldest in the country and about 40 thousands will attend event. They just made a rule that this will be the last year that Outfitters who operate any captive species will be allowed to attend the show. In short, no fences! This is for North America only but Africa could be next. Imagine what will happen to all of the South African Outfitters if this catches on. | |||
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And, if that is the case (regarding the Capt Purvis post) the conventions will implode on themselves. Good luck with that one!  That's surely cutting your nose off to spite your face!  Might was well turn it into a bunny hugging love fest at that juncture. | |||
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Very well written post. It is time that we must realise that we as hunters are a very small group. I is a privilege to hunt and not a right. The biggest challenge we face is not the anti hunters it is the general public who will form an opinion based on our behaviour. Many speaks out against hunting on fenced properties or want to compare hunting behind a fence with the shooting of a captive bred lion. In most cases, in anyway the fenced properties where I hunt, the animals are left to feed breed and fend for themselves without human intervention. That animals know the area and you must outwit the animal in order to take your trophy. The size of the fenced property also plays a major role. On a small property of 100 ha the animal have no chance to escape. The vegetation also plays a role, on a 500ha Kalahari farm ( which is unlikely to be found) an animal will have no chance, but on a bushveld farm with dense vegetation it will be fair chance. A captive bred Lion is born in a cage, taken away from the mother within days and send to a various high end lodges where they are cared for and the tourist can play with them and pet them. The rangers must do everything for the lion cubs, feed them with a bottle and stimulate them to defecate. The rangers become their mothers, When they grow to big they go back to the breeding farm to grow to and age where they will be ready to be shot. They are fed by workers and are in constant presence of human beings. Never in their lives do they learn from their mother how to be a lion, their mothers in anyway do not know how to be a lion as she was also bred in captivity. Once the lion reached maturity and ready to be harvested, it is drugged and moved to an are where it will be shot. The lion is shot within a days after release in a camp. It is usually the only Lion in that camp and in many cases shot where it was released or at a carcass that was left for the lion to feed on. How can anyone defend this as an acceptable and morally right hunting practice. This is the type of behaviour that turn the general public against us. Forget about the antis, we will never change them, one cannot reason with them. We can however change the mind set of the general public, I have done it on many occasions. The captive bred lion breeding industry is driven by greed for a quick buck only, their are no conservation involved. All it does is to tarnish our reputation for all the good work we have done for conservation. In the same breath I must mention the genetic manipulation of ungulates to grow bigger horns and colour variants it is no different from the captive bred lion industry. For those who criticize PHASA, they have done a tremendous amount of work to defend hunting. PHASA is an association where the members have a say and any major issue is decided on at the yearly conference where issues are debated and then voted on. IF we do not regulate ourselves, we will be regulated by people who have a total wrong perception about hunting, they are the general public. Do we hunt to kill or do we kill because we hunted. I believe in the latter. Hunting is a privilege not a right and we must protect our right to enjoy our privilages. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Very well writen Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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Jaco: Question - If captive bred lion shooting is so evil and distasteful, why did it take PHASA over a decade to finally come to this juncture? Further - In regards to the picture you paint about animals being taken away from their mothers and hand-raised only to be shot, that happens with a lot of other species. So is PHASA going to go after all the other operations that are raising animals to be shot? Where is PHASA going to draw the line and do you believe that is going to improve the image of trophy hunting sufficiently in the eyes of the general public to finally curtail the attacks to end hunting? In short, do you believe this is a winning strategy? ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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Well said Opus. As usual there are a few holier than thou "insiders" that think that condemning others within their profession will allow them to gain extra clients or possibly garner some respect. The fact of the matter is that they are simply feeding the very people that will destroy them, just as soon as they have finished using them to destroy the "mutual enemy". Churchill had it right. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Captive bred lion shooting was discussed for a long time within the ranks of PHASA. There are people in PHASA that is pro captive lion shooting and people who is against it. This topic came up regularly in discussions at the various provincial meetings. SAPO discussed a document with PHASA on the regulation of the captive breeding of predators and a letter of understanding was signed and accepted at the AGM in, I think, 2013. Many members was unhappy about this and a lot of discussions took place amongst PHASA members about this issue. It was back on the agenda at the AGN in 2015 and after discussions and the viewpoints of both sides was heard a vote was taken and the members voted against the shooting of captive bred Lions. The PHASA leadership does not make decisions and enforce it, the members take democratic decisions that the leadership must then enforce. Yes this issue was under discussion for at least the last 8 years and now the members took a stance against it. [ Any animal taken away from his mother and are hand raised is not suitable for the hunting industry. If you are referring to domestic animals, cattle, sheep, pigs and chickens, it is a totally different scenario, they are bred for food and not for hunting purposes. Foreign hunters come to hunt in Africa or anywhere in the world and all they can take home with them is their trophy. Now we must ask what is a trophy, the dictionaries describe it as a prize for outstanding achievement or successful in the one or other endeavour. Would you hunt a bull in a domesticated herd of cattle and take the trophy home with you and be proud of it? I do not think you would. In my opinion a hunting trophy is to remember your hunt and to bring back the memories of how you outwitted your prey, it does not have to be the biggest set of horns or the oldest specimen. It is your price for and an achievement you can be proud off. That is why I believe that I kill because I hunted. The hunting memory is about everything that happened during the hunt. What do you remember when you look at the trophy of a capture bred lion that you shot? Was their a challenge - NO, did the lion had any chance of escape - NO, did you have to outwit the lion - NO, were you guaranteed of a kill- YES. Could you choose the Lion from a photo - YES. The list can go on, it is morally not defendable to treat wild game animals like domesticated animals. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Jaco: Again, you're describing most South African farm hunting. Can the animals escape? No Are they raised for the expressed purposes of shooting? Yes. It is challenging? Sort of in that they have been chased and shot at all their lives. So they are a little nervous to say the least. Are you pretty much guaranteed you will find the animals? Yes Are you pretty much guaranteed you will shoot one? Yes, otherwise the farm hunting industry would not exist as there would be no profit motive. So again, seems one is focusing on one species and ignoring similar hunting circumstances with virtually all other species on SA farms. That's the definition of "splitting hairs". ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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They are not hand raised, there are minimum human intervention. Compare apples with apples. Do you think there are not fences in the rest of Africa, what is artificial watering holes other than fences, or the burning of the veld to get new growth. All are methods to keep animals in a certain area, nothing different from a wired fence. If you know Africa so well specifically South Africa, you should know and I have seen it many times, Kudu bulls jumping the fence and Eland bulls jumping a fence without a problem. Animals escape through fences regularly, through the holes that warthogs made or diving through the wires. Yes you will definitely see the animals, but if you cannot hunt you will not get your trophy unless you sit at a waterhole or shoot from a vehicle. Not all the animals are hunted by humans, Leopard Hyena etc. take them and many die of old age. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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So what you are saying is you would be fine with captive lion shooting as long as it follows the rest of SA farm hunting standards of minimal human intervention behind high fence. Seems like a simple solution to me. ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
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I don't like bow hunting, should I campaign against it? I don't like hunting with doubles and open sights, should I campaign against it? We are getting ourselves into a knot and helping the likes of PETA in their cause. Bloody hell, hunt anyway you like. Breed your own animals and shoot them, whose business is it to you what you should and should not do? Far too many busy bodies in this world whose only purpose in life is to stop others doing what they themselves don't like! | |||
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Opus1 and others - There's a million ways you can spin the SA high-fence hunting, compared to "canned lion shooting", etc, etc. I personally see a huge difference in the two - but that's only my opinion, others are free to disagree of course. What I can say for a fact, and is not just an opinion - is that "canned lion shooting" was in itself extremely instrumental in the USFWS policy regarding stopping lion importation on Jan. 23rd, 2016. The USFWS specifically talked about it, were disgusted by it, and made it a notable mention in their opinion/ruling. Under no circumstances will they allow captive/bred lions to be imported, period! The practice gave the antis a war cry, and the powers to be - something to bite on. Be it right or wrong? I see what you're saying, some see no difference in the canned lion shooting - vs - high fence farming/hunting in general. I do, as I see the benefit to African wildlife the high fence operations created throughout SA / Namibia, etc. I don't think the same benefit came to the lion - via the canned shooting industry. Either way, I am sure the antis will get around to attacking it all sooner or later! And in the end, all wildlife will be the big loser. | |||
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Jaco and Aaron have replied very well, so can't add much more other than to reiterate that ungulate's raised on a ranch are considerably different to carnivores . As to the perception that we are attacking one form of hunting to promote our own is a very wrong presumption, the number one financial rewarding hunting practice in SA as reported by DEAT is canned lion , so guys like Jaco are showing that future of hunting is more important to them than short term financial reward, in these tough times its even more commendable. Someone like Aaron who is a leading lion hunting authority could become an immensely wealthy man if he prostituted his beliefs and supported/ sold canned lion hunts, me I am no longer involved in hunting but remain first and foremost a conservationist who strongly advocates hunting ad a primary tool of wildlife and habitat conservation. | |||
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