Two quick questions:

In general, what is the price difference in .500 NE ammo vs. .470 NE ammo (in comparable loads)?

Also, in general, what is the difference in recoil (in comparable guns)?

Thanks

About the same if you reload, but no real comparison commercially since .500 isn't generally available, while .470NE would cost you about $260/box of 20. I think Krieghoff sells some .500, but good luck fiding it in Africa if your luggage is lost.
Kynoch sells 20 .500NE bullets for $280 if you can find them.

Eland Slayer

I have shot several different 470 double rifles, British and new made.

I have shaot a Searcy, Hambrusch, and 2 different Merkel 500 Nitro's.

I find the recoil of the 500 to be quite a bit more.

In fact I had rather shoot a 577 Searcy than a 500 Merkel.

Recoil is a subjective thing, others may feel different.

I do not reload. How much does .500 NE ammo generally cost if you get it loaded by someone like Superior Ammunition?

I have a Norma Brochure for the "NORMA AFRICAN PH" range of catridges soon to be avaliable.
The range includes 373H&H, 404J, 416REM, 416RIG, 450RIG, 458LOTT, 470NE, 500NE and 505G with nickel plated cases and Woodleigh soft and solid bullets.
ozhunter

I am about to order a Merkel as well. Do I take it that Federal Premium do not produce 500NE. Based in Tanzania as I am it is essential to me that I can get quality "factory" type ammo out of the U.S. It sounds to me as though I should look at .470 instead, looking at the above posts.

Furthermore, a good friend and experienced PH told me that his Merkel has been fantastic except the stocks tend to crack. His is in 500NE. I have never heard of this in 470NE. Comments anyone???

I too would be very grateful for any feedback on the above.

Thanks all.

Hi JT,
Just sold my Merkel to another PH for a super deal.
Some friends and I are very happy with our merkels and it sounds like they will be avaliable with ejectors as a standard if one prefers..
PS, Sent something with Jaimie for you.

ozhunter

Thanks Mate

Yeah the Merkel decision has not been taken lightly, I have had many clients with them over the years and have been suitably impressed. The standard gun happens to fit me perfectly as well! Yes I will be getting the one with ejectors for an extra 350 euros as well. (I have also squared a deal there).

JW arrives tomorrow, keeping my head down.....cheers

quote:

Originally posted by JTHunt:
I am about to order a Merkel as well. Do I take it that Federal Premium do not produce 500NE. Based in Tanzania as I am it is essential to me that I can get quality "factory" type ammo out of the U.S. It sounds to me as though I should look at .470 instead, looking at the above posts.

Federal does not make 500NE, which accounts for the popularlity of the .470.

Thanks for the above Vic, it certainly makes 470 more popular for me! Appreciate the info.

Isnt Hornady going to also load the .470??

Superior makes "factory" ammo for the .500 NE. The cost is/was about $220-$240 for a box of 20. When the .500 NE is loaded with RL 15, the recoil is quite a bit less than when slower powders are used. With the RL 15 the recoil is about 20% greater than the .470 NE. The increased effect on game, however is noticeable, IMHO.

Geronimo

If we are trying to keep to specific forum topics, why isn't this thread in the "Big Bore" forum?

Midway now offers A-Square 500 Nitro loaded with the Dead Tough, Lion Load or Solid for $112 - 115 for ten rounds.

I cannot vouch for the quality of either the brass or bullets.

Federal 470 Nitro sells for about $250 loaded with Woodleighs for 20 rounds. So in this case, as of today, the 500 is actually cheaper.

I just dont know about the A-Square ammo these days.

Andy

I was looking @ Midway and Cabela.s for ammo in 470 or 500 nitro , and noticed that A-Square ammo was more resonably priced than the Fedral Ammo.....Has thee been any poblems with A-Square Ammo ???? I,m not paying 300 $ a box for something that doesn,t kill any quicker than the 458.......

Some folks have had problems w/A2 ammo in that some wouldn't chamber at all. And, the ones that would chamber, once fired, would split. Don't know who makes their brass but it sucks.

Eland,

A 570 grain bullet kicks more than a 500 grain (to me). I only weigh 132 pounds but I could still shoot Dan's, aka "500 Grains" Searcy and Hambrusch reasonably well on my first try.







However, I would want to shoot about 400 rounds of full power 470 or 500 nitro and alot of Side by Side 12 gauge for practice before hunting jumbo with one.

Andy

Addressing the recoil aspect:

1) Generally these rifles weigh-in pretty close 10-11 pounds or so. Thus this could be considered a non-mitigating factor.

2) Bullet weights make a big difference: 470 @ 500 grains and 500 @ 570 grains.

3) Ft. pounds @ 5130 for the 470 and 5850 for the 500.

No doubt given the aforementioned one can conclude that the 500 NE will deliver more recoil. FYI my shooting buddies concur.

JW

quick load shows some interesting comparisons.
ICI 1926 Data shows the
470 with 75 Cord 500 grain bullet @ 2125 from a 31 inch barrel.

reproducing that load with RL 15 out of a 11 lb gun gives about 59 ft lbs of recoil.

ICI Data shows the
500 with 80 Cord 570grain at 2150 from a 28 inch barrel

Reproducing that load with RL 15 out a 11 lb rifle gives about 75 ft/lbs recoil. This is a significant difference.

The really interesting thing though is that I have chronographed 470 500 grain loads at 2250ft/second with 106 IMR 4831. That load shows 73 ft/lbs recoil out of an 11 lb gun and 75 out of a 10.5 gun.

so the bottom line is that gun weight fit and the way the ammo is loaded goes a long way toward the recoil levels.

els,

None-the-less...The 500 will deliver more "felt" recoil than will the .470...Agree?

JW

Thanks 475 ......;I have had trouble with Fedral Premium Safari 458 Win loaded with the Sledge Hammer solids.. The cases wern,t cimped in the cannalurs and a few of them were loose and could be pulled out with my fingers.....A trip thru the Lee Factory crimp die fixed them ...... A guy shouldn,t have to fix expensive ammo tho ...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
In fact I had rather shoot a 577 Searcy than a 500 Merkel.

Recoil is a subjective thing, others may feel different.

Me too.

Keith

A-Square sucks. I had a round fail to fire and, at Art's request, sent back the box...never to be seen again...though it's been promised over and over again... Spend your money elsewhere friend.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
els,

None-the-less...The 500 will deliver more "felt" recoil than will the .470...Agree?

JW

Not necessarily. Having shot several .470's and .500's, the worst of the bunch as far as felt recoil was a Marcel Thys .470 boxlock. The stock jabbed my cheekbone every shot making the recoil extremely unpleasant. And when shouldering the gun in the gunshop I could not tell it was like that.

Hi ELS,

I've just started reloading my 500NE and since I couldn't get hold of RL15 I decided to start of with Norma MRP.
I double-checked my loads with quickload (sorry, don't have the details with me at the moment), but when I shot the first loads over the Chrony with my Krieghoff, the fell nearly 100m/s short of Quickloads predictions.

Did you or others out there have similar experiences?

Rgds, 500NE

BTW: Krieghoff's factory loads (manufactured by W. Romey) where on the spot velocity-wise...

quote:

Originally posted by els:
quick load shows some interesting comparisons.
ICI 1926 Data shows the
470 with 75 Cord 500 grain bullet @ 2125 from a 31 inch barrel.

reproducing that load with RL 15 out of a 11 lb gun gives about 59 ft lbs of recoil.

ICI Data shows the
500 with 80 Cord 570grain at 2150 from a 28 inch barrel

Reproducing that load with RL 15 out a 11 lb rifle gives about 75 ft/lbs recoil. This is a significant difference.

The really interesting thing though is that I have chronographed 470 500 grain loads at 2250ft/second with 106 IMR 4831. That load shows 73 ft/lbs recoil out of an 11 lb gun and 75 out of a 10.5 gun.

so the bottom line is that gun weight fit and the way the ammo is loaded goes a long way toward the recoil levels.

Oh, I've been meaning to ask. What do y'all think about Krieghoff's .500/.416 Nitro Express 3 1/4"? Have any of you shot this caliber? If so, what was the recoil like and what are your opinions of it? Also, where can you get loaded ammo for it?

500 Grains (Dan),

Reckon that "Thys" gun didn't fit you well / was a tad bit light for the round?


You definately have more experience with the .500 than do I.

Just a thought,

JW

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
I do not reload. How much does .500 NE ammo generally cost if you get it loaded by someone like Superior Ammunition?

You may not reload today, but I assure you, you will if you get into large bore double rifles! Not only to save money, which is a considerable saveings, but because handloading is needed to get the best from your double! Places like Superior will even cost you more that factory, because it is custom loading, good ammo though!

The 500NE has considerably more recoil in similar weight rifles, over the 470NE. Still I like the 500NE better than the 470NE. In fact I'd rather have a 450NE 3 1/4" that any of the 470, class rifles. The 470 class wouldn't even exist, if the .450s had not been outlawed in 1909 for India, and the Sudan, where most double rifle were shipped, at that time!

,,,,Eland Slayer ..,.,. I second the Questions about the 500/416 ... It would be an ideal cartridge for where I live..... Any Responses ????????????????????

I USE A 500 NE IN 3 1/4 INC USEING RL15,92.5 GRAINS GETTING 2090-2120 FPS.THE RIFLE I USE IS A HYEM WEIGHT 12.8 LBS THE RECOIL IS VERY MANAGEABLE,THE DIFFRENCE I FIND IN 470- AND 500
IS THAT THE 500 IS A FORGIVING ROUND,IF YOU MISS THE BRAIN ON A FRONTAL CHARGE IT STILL MOMENTAREARLY STOP THE ELE SO YOU CAN PLACE THE SECOND SHOT MORE CAREFULLY

Gumboot 458 / Eland Slayer
The 500/416 suffers from the horrible malady of being modern. I had one and loved it. It is basically a rimmed 416 that performs close to the 416 Rigby with less recoil than the 470 and lot's of good bullets to choose from. In a scoped double it would seem perfect for buffalo, big bears etc. It would be fine for elephant as is a 416 Rigby and ammunition is easily obtained from Superior. I did not reload for mine so I can't comment on brass availability. Do a search and you will see lots of reasons why the cartridge is bad except from people who have actually used one. Krieghoff told me it is their most popular double rifle cartridge.

quote:

Furthermore, a good friend and experienced PH told me that his Merkel has been fantastic except the stocks tend to crack. His is in 500NE. I have never heard of this in 470NE. Comments anyone???

I know a PH in Zim who has carried a Merkel .470 since 2002. The stock is splitting on both sides at the pins in front of the wrist. The rifle has seen a lot of use - 200+ days a year, in various weather conditions. Probably not a problem for a client hunter, but could be for a PH who is looking for a rifle that will last with minimum maintenance. I spoke to Merkel at SCI. They say the only solution is to send the gun back to Germany for restocking with 8-9 month turn-around.

quote:

Originally posted by Desi hunter:
THE 500 IS A FORGIVING ROUND,IF YOU MISS THE BRAIN ON A FRONTAL CHARGE IT STILL MOMENTAREARLY STOP THE ELE SO YOU CAN PLACE THE SECOND SHOT MORE CAREFULLY

Usually but not guaranteed, whether a 470 or 500.

quote:

Originally posted by Eland Slayer:
Oh, I've been meaning to ask. What do y'all think about Krieghoff's .500/.416 Nitro Express 3 1/4"? Have any of you shot this caliber? If so, what was the recoil like and what are your opinions of it? Also, where can you get loaded ammo for it?

I've shot one a fair bit. Standard velocity is supposed to be 2,330 fps in 25.5" barrels. The Krieghoff factory ammo (Romey) clocked 2,260-2,275 fps, depending on lot, in the standard 23.5" barrels. That I'm aware of, factory ammo is only available from Romey, and custom loaded ammo is available from Superior and others. The Romey ammo was erratic. It's pretty easy to handload though. Recoil might be a little more stiff than .450/.400, but I couldn't tell much difference.

It's a good cartridge. In terms of aggravation, the .450/.400 might be a better choice. The extra velocity comes at the expense of higher pressure. The .500/.416 has the highest chamber pressure of all the flanged nitros over .375 caliber.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by David W:

quote:

Furthermore, a good friend and experienced PH told me that his Merkel has been fantastic except the stocks tend to crack. His is in 500NE. I have never heard of this in 470NE. Comments anyone???

I know a PH in Zim who has carried a Merkel .470 since 2002. The stock is splitting on both sides at the pins in front of the wrist. The rifle has seen a lot of use - 200+ days a year, in various weather conditions. Probably not a problem for a client hunter, but could be for a PH who is looking for a rifle that will last with minimum maintenance. I spoke to Merkel at SCI. They say the only solution is to send the gun back to Germany for restocking with 8-9 month turn-around.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,So to my way of thinking ,, as far as a reliability goes why not put a Kevlar / fiberglass stock on one..........I don,t care how beautiful a stick of wood is , if a rifle is broke then its just a piece of junk,,,perhaps I should rephase that.......For the person who just wants to go out and play , pretty wood is fine,,,But what about the guy who Really likes to have his double with him all the time ,, for what it does not what it looks like......This isn,t like , muzzel brakes, on a double ,,.,.Jungle hunting is a Perfact place for a double and jungles tend to be pretty wet.....We only get 100" or a little more of precip a year here and wood stocked rifles get pretty junky looking in not too long.... So my Question is ,, does anyone know of someone who make quality synthetic stocks for double rifles ?????????????????????????