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One of Us |
Ok, here is the deal. I'm going to be going on my first safari in about 4 years. In the meantime I go to the range, and once a year harvest a boar or two out here in the Peoples Republic of California. I gave my daughter my 270, and I bought what I thought was a great Browning safari grade in 30-06. Problem is, my accuracy with that rifle (which in fairness is about 30 years old) is only acceptable at best. I am considering dumping it, and buying a brand new rifle. Questions that I have, that hopefully I can get some feed back are: 1) What caliber? I fell pretty comfortable with the 30-06, but since this is a new rifle should I go up to say a 300 win mag? or is that over kill for a general hunting rifle 2) Overall effectiveness. This rifle will be used for local, as well as international hunting 3) Good extractor. I've noticed that some of the extractors on some of the cheaper rifles are pretty chincy. I don't want to have an extraction problem so it should have a good claw. 4) Price. This is going to be a hunting rifle, taken in the field, not a pice of furniture. I would really like to keep the price under $1,000. 5) Accuracy...the browing that I currently have is giving me about 5 to 6 inch groups at 100yards..I think we can do better! 6) Wood or Synthetic....I am partial to wood, but I would be interested in hearing opinions as to which direction to go on this one. Thanks for your help guys! | ||
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I'm not a .30mag guy, but you would be hard pressed to find a better one-gun-for-the-world rig. Except for the big bears & Africa's DG, special rifles for special animals, the .30mag in any flavor (.300WM, .300Wby. .300WSM, etc.) will get you there. I would lean to a M70 or CZ for the CRF. If you like syn. stocks, great. I prefer wood so a laminate is the way I would go. If you get a .30mag & a .375h&h, then you truly can hunt anything in the world w/ confidence. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I'd have to agree, as long as you don't intend to hunt dangerous game, a 300 win mag is a great choice for plainsgame. If you think you might be going after a cape buffalo, then a 375 in any rifle with CRF would be the best. ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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I don't care who makes the gun, but it should be 338 WM and get it loaded with Barnes 225 X's. | |||
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Hi Steven! First, buy the Craig Boddington book titled: Safari Rifles, from Safari Press. It is the bible starter book when trying to determine which rifle to buy or take with you. That being said, the key takeaway from this book are: A. Take whatever rifle-cartridge combo you feel comfortable with and can shoot well under pressure with. B. For everything but Dangerous game top choices are: 30-06, 300 win mag, 338 win mag. C. For Dangerous game, top choices are: 375 H&H, 375 Weatherby (one of Boddington's favorites), 416 rem. mag. and 416 Rigby. Now to answer your questions: 1) What caliber? Use the 30-06, but if you really want something more powerful at longer ranges, get a 300 win mag. Is that over kill for a general hunting rifle? No, the .300 Win Mag is never overkill for big game, especially in Africa. 2) Overall effectiveness. Fro both local, as well as, international hunting get either the 30-06 or 300 Win Mag. 3) Good extractor. Get a Winchester Model 70 and hae a good gunsmith go over it. 4) Price. For what you describe get a used Model 70 in either of those two cartridges and have a good gunsmith go over it. 5) Accuracy...You should be able to get 1" groups with the above rifle. Spending more, will result in beter accuracy but that is not needed anyways. 6) Wood or Synthetic....I am partial to wood, - I say go for a laminate if you are partial to wood, BUT if it were me, I'd go synthetic all the way! Never any probles with change of Zero, lightweight and unbreakable! End of Story. You cannot go wrong with this advice. I am sure others will share their thoughts with you soon, but you will see similarities in our opinions. Welcome and best of success! | |||
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Since you said "I am considering dumping it..." I think you should take a giant step back... 5 to 6 inch groups is very suspicious. Before doing anything thorughly clean the bore. 1) If the gun has iron sights, take the scope off and shoot it at 50 yds with iron sights. You and someone else see what kinds og groups you get. 2) If there are no iron sights have some one else shoot it as is. 3) If they get bad groups...remove the scope, mounts and rings and re-install everything. Now see how it shoots. 4) if after step 3 you still have problems install a different scope. If you don't want to do the above, and you live in Nor Cal...I will do it for you...or you can ship it to me and I will do it. Not joking...I suspect something is a miss. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Just my thoughts: CanadianLefty gave excellent advice. Mike_Dettorre also gave excellent advice. A Browning Safari Grade in .30-06 would be a great choice. I think your rifle just needs a little loving care and tuning up. I wouldn't give up on it yet. Have a good gunsmith look it over. -Bob F. | |||
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If you do buy and read Boddington's "Safari Rifles" you will notice that he considers an ideal 2 rifle battery to be a 338 and a 416. With these two rifles you cover all big game. With the 338 you cover effectively all North American big game as well as all African plains game. The 416 takes care of everything bigger. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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You have received some good advice here. If it was me, instead of the Win M-70 I would go for a Ruger M-77 and top it off with a good Leupold. If you shop around you can get them both new and still have a good chunk of money left over from $1000. ****************************** There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?" Martin Luther King, Jr. | |||
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An abundance of good advice here. I'm with WyoJoe, however. Get a Ruger M-77. I'd make mine a .338 Win Mag. Good luck. Best, Starcharvski | |||
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Having been up and down the list of cartridges from 375 H&H to 243 Winchester and having killed a good bit of game with both the 300 and 338 Win Mag, I have settled on a Winchester M-70 Classic Sporter in 30-06. It has a McMillan stock and a 3 X 9 Khales scope. I can tell no difference in the killing effectiveness of this rifle as compared to the 300 or 338 on game out to 300 yards ranging from blue wildebeest, kudu, gemsbok, waterbuck, elk, black bears, feral hogs to springbok, pronghorns, reed buck, coyotes and mountain lions. Also, 30.06 ammo is much less expensive, bullet choices are less critical, it produces much less felt recoil while still offering full penetration on difficult angle shots and is a bit shorter and lighter rifle. For an average sportsman, unless dangerous game, bison, eland or 300 plus yard shots are in your immediate future I think a 30.06, perferably in a M-70, is all you are going to need. Perry | |||
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I'll second the notion that you should be taking a closer look at your Browning. I have a friend with the identical gun and he finds that the gun groups great until he fires a few shots and heats it up. Then, the groups start to drop, about 10" at 100 yards!!! I don't know if he's got the problem sorted out yet, but if he ever decides to sell the rifle I'll grab it in a second. I have a .375 H&H and a .458WM in the same rifle and both are great! They're as good a rifle as is out there. | |||
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For Africa, I lean toward medium bores as a "light" rifle, starting with .338 and going up through 9.3mm and .375. If you plan to hunt in areas requiring longer shots, then probably you should favor the .338 end of the scale. For bushveld conditions where the ranges average under 100 yards, you'd be at no disadvantage at the upper end, and you'd also have the advantage of having a caliber that could also take dangerous game if encountered unexpectedly, or if you decide to add one to your trophy list at the last minute. --- Eric Ching "The pen is mightier than the sword...except in a swordfight." | |||
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Step 1. Follow Mike Dettorre's advice. Make sure screws are tight, bedded correctly, quality scope and mounts installed properly, throughly cleaned with Wipe-Out ,etc. Step 2. If Step 1 does not work, buy a Pre-64 M70 in 30-06 standard or featherweight. Top with a Leupold VX3 2.5-8x or 3.5-10x. If you want to spend a bit more $$, buy a Pre-64 M70 in 300 Win Mag (only made them in 1963). Mine shoots under MOA with 150 grain TSX's. Tim | |||
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You can always rebarrel the browning.. | |||
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Firstly, isn't the Safari a BAR? If so you can't use it anyway. | |||
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Nope, it's not the current BAR Safari. Here's an example photo of a Browning Safari Grade bolt action (FN action).  -Bob F. | |||
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Nope, depending on the year, they're a Belgian Mauser action. A buddy has one in .30-06 (he and it are as old as the hills) and it shoots good loads, 3-shots, into an inch all day long. Although I've got more rifles in as many different calibers than I really need (HAH!  ), a good .30-06 or .300 Win Mag will do 90% of what needs doing. If it doesn't, time to move up to a .375 H&H.  .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Bob beat me! And with the perfect picture too! .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Steven, I don't know where in California you are, but welcome. Fred and I are in Southern California, and there are others posting here. John Barsness did a great article on how he checks used rifles. It is online, and worth reading. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/factors_in_accuracy_one.html I like those Browning Safaris, and I expect you will be able to get this one to shoot. jim if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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That's what I would do. | |||
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HP and Ropes, I am curious are you suggesting rebarelling immediately? Cause I would think the more prudent thing to do is invest a about a two 2 hour range sessions before you invest $300-400 on a new bbl? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| <allen day> |
Personally, I like the .300 Win. Mag. and .338 Win. Mag. cartridges best for general hunting, and a .416 Rem. Mag. for DG hunting. If I had to rely on either a .300 or .338 for all of my hunting, world-wide -- from pronghorn through eland -- plus the .416 for the big, dangerous stuff, I'd spend the rest of my career happy as far as rifles go. If recoil was a significant issue, I'd go with a .30-06 for just about everything, along with a .375 H&H for the dangerous stuff. It's as simple as all that. The subject of the 'Adequate Rifle' has been absolutely worked to death over the years. Often, gunwriters have fostered grave doubts in the minds of many hunters, suggesting that their favorite general-purpose rifle might not quite be up to the task after all. Some of this is innocent fun, whupped up for the sake of subject matter, hot topics for magazine sales purposes, etc.; and some of it has been insideously planted for the sole purpose of promoting new gun and ammunition sales. Most cartridges are remarkably similar in the way in which they kill the vast majority of big game animals that inhabit this planet, and I don't care if we're talking N. American game such as mule deer or African game such as kudu. Most animals simply aren't that hard to knock off with most cartridges, provided shot-placement is good and bullet construction is good. In my experience, Africa game isn't one little bit tougher (pound for pound) to bring down quickly and cleanly than N. American game is. Your .30-06 is perfectly fine for at least 95% of it....... AD | ||
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No doubt, it's smart to spend some elbow grease first. But IME, any rifle that has been in continuous use for 35+ years, even if the use is hunting), will probably not have its throat in the best condition. The bore itself can be free of pits and irregularities, but if the throat looks like a gravel road, it ain't going to shoot. | |||
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I am very disappointed in many of my fellow forum members  Hell we all look for excuses to buy a new rifle and here we have several people trying to convince a NEW member to keep the rifle he has!  Even if he can fix the gun he must without a doubt get a new one as well!!! Steven, welcome to the Forum and IMHO, go get a 375 H&H!!! Classic African caliber and you can hunt any animal in the world. While you are at it, start saving for your 416 Rigby so you can have the perfect 2 gun battery for the Dark Continent!  | |||
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If the safari is in the near future a new gun is asking for trouble-it allways takes time to de-bug a rifle in the price range you are talking about.If it is a good while off a well sorted 338 has worked for me and my friends on two safari's. Australia I love a sunburnt country, A land of sweeping plains, Of ragged mountain ranges, Of drought and flooding rains. I love her far horizons, I love her jewel-sea, Her beauty and her terror The wide brown land for me! | |||
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I agree, step one clean the crap out of it. It might just be the bore is fouled with copper and you can get rid of that. Then shoot it. Cost little other than supplies and elbow grease. Step two glass bed!!!!! Then shoot it. Cost $15 from brownells Accraglass jel. Easy to do unless you are a left handed bowhunter vegetarian. Then shoot, after it dries of course. I glass bed everything regardless of how it shoots, and it's never made things worse. Step three, remount everything and make sure it's not torqued to the moon or too loose. Then shoot it again. This is a good time to adjust the trigger. Step four, if still no worky, Something isn't right, barrel, trigger, mount, scope, stock is out of whack. Start by replacing the scope with a new one. Then if your still not happy trade or rebarrel. | |||
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Steven, Please keep the Browning. I had one just like it and I traded it off like the fool I am. Mine would shoot .6-.75" 3 shot groups all day. It would foul though and then the accuracy would go to Hell. Perhaps this is your problem. If you don't want to mess with it take it to a smith and have him look it over. I'll bet for a small investment he can make the Browning a real beaut. They don't make factory rifles like that anymore so keep that one. It is one of the best ever. Regards, Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Aw darn it Mike, I was gonna try to talk him out of it cheap and fix it myself. Now you gone an undone my deal. That Browning has something wrong with it. Worst case, it needs a new barrel, best case, something is loose and or dirty. You should get 1 MOA out of it easy. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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I'm very disappointed in my fellow AR members for holding out on what we all know is the perfect advice and solution, a 45-70!!!!  Great for pronghorn, prarie dogs, cape buffalo, etc. Just buy a 45-70 lever action and don't look back!  Best of luck. Tim | |||
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I should have stated that I would follow all the advice above mine that did not involve expensive work, then if all that failed - rebarrel it if I wanted to keep the gun.. | |||
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I'd say go with an M77/MkII in 30-06 and you'll have the most rugged, versatile and practical rifle on the planet. You can find ammo the world over and it's affordable, components cheap, etc. The .338 Win is an awesome round but recoil starts to pick up there. In fact my last .338 Win had as much or more recoil as my .375 H&H does. The .375 weighs about 2 pounds more than the .338 but that .338 really let you know it packed a punch. .22 LR Ruger M77/22 30-06 Ruger M77/MkII .375 H&H Ruger RSM | |||
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First I would clean it with Wipe Out as may have been suggested...I would check the screws and be sure they are tight..I would check the bedding, maybe take it to a gunsmith and have it checked out..6" is usually more than a barrell gone south.... If that didn't fix it, I would have a good smith trace me a Lothar Walthar barrel to the same specs in another 30-06 and keep that nice old Browning Mauser, its a better rifle than you can buy today.... If there is anything an 06 won't kill that a 300 will, I have yet to see it...for what you hunt why endure the extra recoil, it'll gain you very little... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Amen, Ray! First I suspect copper fouling. Have you perchance been shooting the older version of the Barnes X-bullet in it? They were the devil for copperplating the barrel until it wouldn't shoot sh**! The modern versions, I have been told, are much better but in my case "once burned, forever shy". Freefloat the barrel. Glass bed the action. There is no reason in Hell why an FN Mauser with any decent barrel should blow out 6" groups. Somethin' are wrong! Once you have cured its problems, get a .375. If your first safari is in 4 years, that is plenty of time to get it perfectly tuned (which you will need as all factory rifles are merely starting points) and used to it. You don't pair a .375 with a .416, they are too close in performance. With a .416 you want a .338 (or a .318 ) but since you already have the '06 a .375 is the next logical step. Now if you follow the slightly deranged advice on this forum and blow all your safari money on rifles you will want something in .450 to go with your '06 and prospective .375. Now you are all set up for a $100K safari. How nice . . . Anyone on this forum willing to admit that you do such things (Saeed excepted, of course, it's his right!)?The '06 will do anything in NA but big bears and the .375 will do anything, period! Spend your money on hunts, not guns. Sarge Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle . . . for one hundred years! | |||
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Dump it, you have a good rifle take it to a gunsmith ( a good one) you may save money in the long run. | |||
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Guys, Wow....thanks so much. I really appreciate all of the information you have given me. Mike special thanks to you for all the time you spent walking me through the problems with the FN. Ok I think I've been convinced to do my best and keep the rifle. Thanks again folks! | |||
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You are missing the point. You see God is trying to help you. You will need a 375 or a 416 or both. Either will need to be tricked out and made 100% reliable and accurate since these are potential Dangerous Game RIfles! This 30-06 is the perfect practice rifle to go through the process of how to get a rifle tricked out so you can bet your life on it. Do that and then go out and get yourself a 375(my recommendation) and do the same with it. Put a thousand rounds through both guns and you have the perfect setup for a classic 2 gun safari. Keep the 30-06. Make it an educational trial run. You got 4 years, you got to do something interesting and constructive with your time. Good hunting.  Although cartridge selection is important there is nothing that will substitute for proper first shot placement. Good hunting, "D" | |||
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One more thing to try is Final Finish bore lapping system from Superior Shooting Systems | |||
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Before I buy a new rifle I will try and sort out the 30-06. I got a Garand that had the same problem. I cleaned it properly and got rid of all the copper in the barrel, now it is grouping very good less than an inch @ 100m. If yoy are reloading play around with the jump of the bullet. I had amazing results on my 308. I loaded my bullets with a 1 mm jump and increased it with .2 mm up to a 2 mm jump. I got the rifle to shoot a clover @ 100m. Also check the rifles bedding and if the screws holding the action to the stock are tight. It is amazing what all this can do to the accuracy of a rifle. It can also save you a lot of money. I you cannot get the rigle sorted out I will suggest a 375 H&H. You can hunt all the plainsgame in Africa with it and you can use it on DG. A 9.3 X 62 can also be a good choice. Your wish list for Africa will however be the biggest deciding factor. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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